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Thread: I have to ask

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default I have to ask

    Ok, I know this is going to turn into an anti-JOB thread and frankly I'm ok with that, to a point.

    But I have to ask.

    At what point in time does it fall on the coach's shoulders for players continually taking bad shots?

    Now don't get my question wrong, this does not absolve the players at all as some of them take shots that I will tell you make O'Brien's head want to explode.

    But at what point in time does he become responsible for the shot selection?

    I guess that is a two part question.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  2. #2

    Default Re: I have to ask

    I don't think it's a "point in time thing" I think it depends on what the coach is telling them.

    If JOB is yelling at whoever, everytime they take an awful shot..and they still continue to do it. It's not his fault.

    However..if he continues to preach "quick threes" and the players take quick threes, then that's JOB's fault.

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    Gold Stagger Hoop's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have to ask

    How's the the old saying go? The Coach don't take bad shots, make dumb turnovers, watch players go by them for layups. But, neither do well coached players.

    I'm blaming it mostly on poor coaching and a flawed system that does not match the players strengths. I think most of our players have came from big time College Programs that value shot selection, good team play, and defense. The system he is trying to get them to play goes against everything they have already been taught, so confusion is going to reign IMO.

    I'm betting the same folks, like me, who don't like the coach's style will blame JOB.

    The same folks that are always defending JOB come hell or high water will blame the players and we'll be right back to the beginning again, it's always the same debate over and over.
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    Default Re: I have to ask

    Maybe they think they better take all the shots they can when they have the chance since they will more than likely be inexplicably benched and run off a string of DNP-CD's. You never know when you're gonna see the court for JOB unless you have the good fortune of being born Troy Murphy, then your golden.

  6. #5
    dennaB Twes's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have to ask

    Doesn't it seem like it's time for a new coach.

    I'm just sayin.

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    Default Re: I have to ask

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    as some of them take shots that I will tell you make O'Brien's head want to explode.
    *Sigh* If only that were possible. Not that I would wish harm on anyone, but man, if taking bad shots drove Obie away from this team, by all means, I'd be happy watching Hibbert chuck shots from half court all game long.

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    Default Re: I have to ask

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
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    How's the the old saying go? The Coach don't take bad shots, make dumb turnovers, watch players go by them for layups. But, neither do well coached players.

    I'm blaming it mostly on poor coaching and a flawed system that does not match the players strengths. I think most of our players have came from big time College Programs that value shot selection, good team play, and defense. The system he is trying to get them to play goes against everything they have already been taught, so confusion is going to reign IMO.

    I'm betting the same folks, like me, who don't like the coach's style will blame JOB.

    The same folks that are always defending JOB come hell or high water will blame the players and we'll be right back to the beginning again, it's always the same debate over and over.
    This is a great post, I couldn't agree more.

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  10. #8

    Default Re: I have to ask

    Beyond our coach's flawed system or the players being bad. We have also have horrible lineups being trotted out there. Hibbert and Troy or T-Roy as this monster has been called is just atrocious together. Mike Jr is also terrible at defense and if you get these three together it is just superterriblisticextrabadatrocious defense.

    Then we also have players refusing to go into a Roy in the post. I saw Roy posted up a number of times and the guy who would normally feed him drive right past him for the turnover, or take a contested jumpshot. It's as if the players are runnign two different offenses. You have Roy posting up, and our wings running off screens cloggin everything up in a display of offensive futility.

    So selfishness is a huge problem. All these things do eventually lead back to the coach for not tightening the reigns and instilling discipline to make the right play. And of course, it is on Jim for playing terrible lineups together.

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    Default Re: I have to ask

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
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    How's the the old saying go? The Coach don't take bad shots, make dumb turnovers, watch players go by them for layups. But, neither do well coached players.

    I'm blaming it mostly on poor coaching and a flawed system that does not match the players strengths. I think most of our players have came from big time College Programs that value shot selection, good team play, and defense. The system he is trying to get them to play goes against everything they have already been taught, so confusion is going to reign IMO.

    I'm betting the same folks, like me, who don't like the coach's style will blame JOB.

    The same folks that are always defending JOB come hell or high water will blame the players and we'll be right back to the beginning again, it's always the same debate over and over.
    Agreed.

    I was always taught "Take the best shot", not "Take the first shot available". I was always taught "Don't take a shot in transition", not "Pull up as soon as you cross the half-court line". I was always taught "Switch on D (which sucked, because I HATED it when I got stuck on a PG)", not "Stay with your man although another could be open". I was always taught "Wait for your Bigs (unless it's a 3 on 1 fastbreak) to get position", not "Shoot although all 5 players are on the perimeter". I was always taught "TALK ON DEFENSE", not ".......". I was always taught "Cut to the open space", not "Stand by the 3PT line". I was always taught "Use screens and picks", not "Stand by the 3PT line ".

    Man, I think I would hate playing for JOB, unless I was a player who loved to jack up 3's not play defense.

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    Default Re: I have to ask

    I've come to grips with the fact that Obie is going to finish out this season as head coach. I'm fine with that. But if this guy starts next season as the coach, then Bird would really be pushing my limits as a fan. When it's time to make a change, a change has to be made. Should Obie get the blame for all of this? Of course not, but it's time for a change.

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    Default Re: I have to ask

    Just like any coach who was going to take this coaching job, JOB is a "throwaway coach".

    As are 75% of the players on this roster.

  16. #12
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    Default Re: I have to ask

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
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    .

    The same folks that are always defending JOB come hell or high water will blame the players and we'll be right back to the beginning again, it's always the same debate over and over.
    No not the same debate, we haven't discussed this too often this season.

    I might surprise you as I'm sure I'm in the hell or high water camp

    Shot selection is largely a function of coaching. So if you think the Pacers are taking bad shots, blaming the coach is a reasonable response. A coach can put an end to it to a degree. If a player is taking bad shots, the coach can take that player out, and sit him on the bench.

    Of course this opens up several different discusions about what is bad shot selection, I won't get into that here. You also have to consider whether the team has enough talent to get good shots to begin with. If 5 of us were to play a game against an NBA team, we would take horrible shots because we aren't capable of getting good shots. Obviously this is an extreme point that I'm using to make my point.

    But if you believe the pacers take bad shots and therefore want to blame the coach, that is reasonable, one of the more reasonable approaches in this forum in awhile in egards to Jim O'Brien

  17. #13
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have to ask

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    Agreed.

    I was always taught "Take the best shot", not "Take the first shot available". I was always taught "Don't take a shot in transition", not "Pull up as soon as you cross the half-court line". I was always taught "Switch on D (which sucked, because I HATED it when I got stuck on a PG)", not "Stay with your man although another could be open". I was always taught "Wait for your Bigs (unless it's a 3 on 1 fastbreak) to get position", not "Shoot although all 5 players are on the perimeter". I was always taught "TALK ON DEFENSE", not ".......". I was always taught "Cut to the open space", not "Stand by the 3PT line". I was always taught "Use screens and picks", not "Stand by the 3PT line ".

    Man, I think I would hate playing for JOB, unless I was a player who loved to jack up 3's not play defense.
    I want to expand this conversation beyond the pacers to the whole NBA. What you were taught is generally not what is taught in the NBA. Most teams want their best shooters taking transition threes as those are often the easiest threes their best players are going to get. With the 24 second shot clock and the great defenses in the NBA taking transition shots is a way of life

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    Default Re: I have to ask

    I think all parties have to take responiblity. I feel that no player on any team should be able to have a free for all for shooting. It should be part of the team stratige. If a play just hands in his face and take a diffucult shoot...no biggie as long as they dont make a habit of it. Now if a player is taking bad shot after bad shot and never getting it to fall and we are not get the offensive board, then we are just persay handing the ball over to the other team....which as you all know if the other team scores more points then we do, we lose.....there for I say its Larry Birds fault for letting it be Jim Obriens fault for letting the players take those shots time after time!
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    Default Re: I have to ask

    Peck, I was thinking that as I was watching the Pacers destroy the Pistons.

    Do the Pacers always play a, what I would describe, "run and chuck" offense? I mean, Troy Murphy, Danny Granger, Mike Dunleavy, Brandon Rush, they have absolutely no conscience. They shoot whenever they get it, it seems like. It can work if they're hitting their shots, and they get a below average team (like the current Pistons) to play their style, but a disciplined team (like the Billups/Hamilton/Prince/Sheed/Ben Pistons) would destroy them.

    So do they always play like that, or was that an aberration?

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have to ask

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    No not the same debate, we haven't discussed this too often this season.

    I might surprise you as I'm sure I'm in the hell or high water camp

    Shot selection is largely a function of coaching. So if you think the Pacers are taking bad shots, blaming the coach is a reasonable response. A coach can put an end to it to a degree. If a player is taking bad shots, the coach can take that player out, and sit him on the bench.

    Of course this opens up several different discusions about what is bad shot selection, I won't get into that here. You also have to consider whether the team has enough talent to get good shots to begin with. If 5 of us were to play a game against an NBA team, we would take horrible shots because we aren't capable of getting good shots. Obviously this is an extreme point that I'm using to make my point.

    But if you believe the pacers take bad shots and therefore want to blame the coach, that is reasonable, one of the more reasonable approaches in this forum in awhile in egards to Jim O'Brien
    When I see Roy denied at the rim many times or see the team run 4-5+ pass AND cuts plays and just flounder for anything close to a make-able shot, then I'll understand why they pull up quick all the time.

    That hasn't even come close to happening. I wouldn't force Solo into 10 post ups a game, but I wouldn't run and hide from Roy because he muffed 2 shots at the post or got one blocked.

    Rush annoys JOB because he insists on passing up shots he thinks aren't very good. He seems to dislike shooting out of rhythm or when there's still a chance to grind it even closer to the rim. So Rush is labeled as a "flake" (paraphrase), or even more laughable called a poor defender as an excuse to bench him last year.




    Look, forget me. Let's talk other ticket buyers instead. The last couple of weeks you know what I hear from the stands? "Inside Out", "Stop Chucking" or a variety of sarcastic variations of "shoot it, your open" as they cross midcourt.

    This is lower level and can be heard at the court. I'm opposite corner of Bird, but I assume that similar comments are being yelled out toward his end too.

    The fanbase isn't complaining about gangsters or bad players or even losing per se. What they are sick of is the type of ball.

    You can ignore my rants here or dismiss them (and Peck, et al), but paying customers at the event are heckling the issue. That's a very bad sign.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: I have to ask

    And Buck, it's not just my eyes that say the Pacers play a different form of offense. The stats back it too, along with the announces of other teams and various non-Indy based basketball analysts.

    Is there anyone out there nationally defending the style of play by JOB? Let's say JOB is fired tomorrow, who's shocked? Does Mark Stein write an article about how other teams are beating down the door to hire him? Is Mark Cuban blogging about how he can't believe the Pacers made such a dumb mistake? Is Bill Simmons wondering about the latest Bird blunder for letting a treasure like JOB go?



    Meanwhile I have to watch Dirk's career reborn and Dallas rolling to one of their best seasons yet. You know, because Rick's overrated.

    F'n patience. That's all it would have taken. Does anyone really want to make the case that Rick would have had the team playing the exact same style as JOB is right now? Please. Even Rick detractors won't suggest that.

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    Default Re: I have to ask

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    And Buck, it's not just my eyes that say the Pacers play a different form of offense. The stats back it too, along with the announces of other teams and various non-Indy based basketball analysts.

    Is there anyone out there nationally defending the style of play by JOB? Let's say JOB is fired tomorrow, who's shocked? Does Mark Stein write an article about how other teams are beating down the door to hire him? Is Mark Cuban blogging about how he can't believe the Pacers made such a dumb mistake? Is Bill Simmons wondering about the latest Bird blunder for letting a treasure like JOB go?



    Meanwhile I have to watch Dirk's career reborn and Dallas rolling to one of their best seasons yet. You know, because Rick's overrated.

    F'n patience. That's all it would have taken. Does anyone really want to make the case that Rick would have had the team playing the exact same style as JOB is right now? Please. Even Rick detractors won't suggest that.
    so what are you saying.....wait it out and we will win more games.....or wait it out till job is fired?
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    Default Re: I have to ask

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Does anyone really want to make the case that Rick would have had the team playing the exact same style as JOB is right now? Please. Even Rick detractors won't suggest that.
    That's just a funny thought...of course. Obviously Rick would play a "more precise" style of play...and a slower, more controlled pace.

    If RC were in charge, Watson would have been the starter, possibly at the beginning of the year....certainly sooner than 2010. Also, he would not have been able to stomach T-Roy's inability to defend the paint...so Solo and McBob would play a larger part. This would probably reduce Troy's role on the team as a whole. Honestly, I'm not sure how Rick would use Troy, but I'm sure he'd find a way.

    In addition, TJ would be coming off the bench rather than AJ Price. Perhaps that's where JOb deserves some credit....yet TJ should still be used. Goodness, he is not a terrible player...and under the right circumstances can be an asset.

    Hibbert would be getting fed more often. Obviously he is no JO...but I think Carlisle would attempt to use him more in the post. I wouldn't be surprised if the offense revolved around Roy passing out of the post.

    D Jones and Rush would probably be Rick's favorites...and I'm almost certain Rick would do a better job using Brandon.

    Finally, I don't think our record would be nearly as bad because defense would actually be the #1 priority. I'd say we would be talking more about making the playoffs at the present time than the draft.

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    Default Re: I have to ask

    Who amongst the Pacers would play consistently if they were benched for taking bad shots? Roy, because he doesn't get the ball often enough to be expected to shoot covered and/or rushed jumpshots early in the clock prior to our "rebounder" being in position? I have been trying to think of another player who is not injured who would fit that description and cannot think of a single one.

  28. #21

    Default Re: I have to ask

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I want to expand this conversation beyond the pacers to the whole NBA. What you were taught is generally not what is taught in the NBA. Most teams want their best shooters taking transition threes as those are often the easiest threes their best players are going to get. With the 24 second shot clock and the great defenses in the NBA taking transition shots is a way of life
    UB I understand what you are saying here. It's not just in the NBA it is becoming more and more popular on all levels of basketball.

    To bring it back to the Pacers though I see two problems with taking quick threes or a lot of threes in general. Number one is that it really is not playing to a lot of player's strengths. Number two is it is not resulting in winning.

    If you look at the Pacer's roster there are not a lot of players that you would mark 3 point shooting as a strength.

    Granger can hit it but since he is the best scorer I would think you would want taking less than 43% of his shots from beyond the arc.

    Murphy can defiantly stand out there and hit it.

    Rush can as well. I think he is better though in the half court, inside-out with his feet set more then he is taking a quick three.

    Dunleavy can hit it from there but to me he is so versatile and can do a lot of things well on offense you really don't want to use him as a 3 point shooter a lot.

    Head can hit it from 3 but he hasn't shot the ball well from there. Price has shot a decent % but that's not really what he does best.

    Watson has shot well from 3 before but has been inconsistent over the year. Not a guy you bring in to shoot 3s.

    D. Jones and Ford should never shoot 3s.

    Obviously Foster and S. Jones shouldn't shoot any either. Nor should Tyler, Roy, or Josh although those 3 have shot a few this year.

    I understand why teams have that strategy when it plays to the stregnths of their players. I don't understand why the Pacers use that strategy when it doesn't play to the strengths of their players.

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    Default Re: I have to ask

    I've been wondering about this since the Tinsley vs. Phoenix debacle a few years ago.

  30. #23
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    Default Re: I have to ask

    Like BBall, says, watch what JOB does, not what he says.

    I'm guessing the players think the same way. "I'll forget about all that talk from coach about taking good shots, and I'll just watch and see if he benches anyone for it."
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: I have to ask

    I have never thought JOB would win this team a Championship. I give him credit 4 accepting a difficult job that few wanted. He is doing a great job as a coach 4 a struggling, inexperienced team.

    The shot selection is not what I want @ all from this team. I believe the Pacers should start Roy and give him the ball in the low post early in the game much like Smits. Injuries have plauged the Pacers more than shot selection this season.

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    Default Re: I have to ask

    Imagine what a JOB run game of team knockout would be. Nobody can go inside the three point arc unless to rebound the ball, but must bring it back out to shoot every time. Only three's!

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