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So, its about that time of year...

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  • #16
    Re: So, its about that time of year...

    http://pacersdigest.com/showthread.p...289#post946289

    Apparently it was the Hornets game, but I kind of thought it was Charlotte too. Of all the teams to confuse, though, those would be the ones.

    Comment


    • #17
      Re: So, its about that time of year...

      I'm sorry, but I think calling an NBA head coach a moron is a bit over-the-top and for me it taints your otherwise pretty good post. Just my opinion. I do wonder if Walker and Pierce thought Jim was a moron as he was leading their team to the ECF.

      Comment


      • #18
        Re: So, its about that time of year...

        Trying to adress some of the comments:

        AlexAustin/Brad888 - I am not trying to bash Hansbrough, I am a die hard Hansbrough fan. I have watched him for the last 4 years and will root for him until the day he retires, but his game just doesn't translate to a NBA starter on a team that wants to compete. I'd be fine with him starting the next year or two, but eventually if we want to compete we need to find someone else. Like I said, I think he will be a great bench player, possibly one of the best in the NBA, at least in terms of making an impact off the bench - just not a starter to me.

        Zelmo Beatty - The only 5 that I would say are a lock to stay in front of him are Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Paul, and Howard. You have some guys - Kobe included, who are coming torwards the end of their career. Now, I'm not saying we will be a top 7 player, but I honestly feel like if he looked at Gerald Wallace and takes that kind of mentality of doing everything it takes to win - I believe he could be. He is a great scorer, a great defender when he wants to be, a great rebounder when he wants to be, and I think he could develop into a better passer/playmaker. The problem is, he hasn't brought them all together consistantly, but if he could - I think he could potentially be a top 7 player.

        As for the whole Ronny Turiaf thing. Notice, I didn't say he is Dale Davis, I said he is the closest thing to Dale Davis I see in the NBA. I still believe that, I don't see anyone else other than Reggie Evans who's game resembles Davis' all that much. Turiaf is obviously a poor mans Davis, but he brings defensive intensity, rebounding, and toughness. 3 of Dale's best attributes.

        d_c - I'll take an agressive Granger who brings the intensity that Wallace does every single night than a panzee Granger who shoots 12 3's a game - even if it comes with a few more injuries. I'm not saying Granger is a panzee, but your star needs to get to the FT line as much as possible, not settle for jumpers all game long.

        D-Bone - He actually has the best handles on the team I think. Your right though, in the sense that half court ball handling is a lot different than full court ball handling, but I still think he could handle it - especially if its only 5 minutes a game in a trial period.

        Unclebuck - Your right, he did a great job in Boston - I'm still not sure how he managed that, however since coming to the Pacers he has not proved to be a decent coach. He makes the worst basketball decisions I've ever seen a coach make. Maybe he was once a good coach, I don't know - but if he was, he lost his I.Q. somewhere along the line because "moron" is the only way to describe half the decisions he makes now. Just my opinion.

        Comment


        • #19
          Re: So, its about that time of year...

          Originally posted by Unclebuck View Post
          I'm sorry, but I think calling an NBA head coach a moron is a bit over-the-top and for me it taints your otherwise pretty good post. Just my opinion. I do wonder if Walker and Pierce thought Jim was a moron as he was leading their team to the ECF.
          I'm pretty sure Dalembert did, but what does he know, his team only thumped JOB's team tonight.


          Buck, are you so close to this that you don't realize you are defending "Versace" right now? 10 years from now I think you are going to regret some of the stuff from the last few years.

          Rick's got 3 ECFs in him with 3 different squads (ie, 2-3 main parts different), so is he 3 times the coach JOB is? Most people outside of Indy think so. And yet we fired him for a bad 1/2 season while we ride out 3 bad seasons already of JOB.




          I like the OP, though you can't use Rush at PG, but his choices are why I say he's the guy that helps set up plays. He tends to avoid forcing crap. I suspect that's partly why his FTAs remain low, he doesn't drive junk ball crap he knows he can't make into the lane just begging for a foul.

          I realize that method works but it's not "good" basketball. Rush is not a shake and bake one on one guy. Give him a strategy and he'll make sure it's getting done.

          This offense would have ruined Jax, Rik, Dale, McKey and maybe Reggie. Reggie had to have those screens and other stuff to work off of, he wasn't doing most of his stuff off dribble. None of those guys did. Can you imagine Dale dribbling over the ball screen for a long jumper?



          My only well known disagreement is on Tyler. The hops aren't there and I think people are going to figure out his wildness and stop trying to stop it which is where the fouls come from. Just let him do his crazy stuff and then when he's done let him have the wild shot too and get ready to rebound.



          I disagree on Patterson because I don't view him as undersized at all. He might look small next to the gigantic Cousins, but he's a muscular, healthy PF. He'll get PT vs plenty of bigs and lots of tourney showcase time and I think he'll prove me right then.

          My only warning to Bird is to STOP EVALUATING PROSPECTS THE MINUTE GAMES END
          I don't care about the height, shuttle run, one on ones, etc. Use those ONLY to verify the opinions you already formed while they were giving a real audition - in a live game, typically an important one if it means their tourney life or is a major rival game.
          Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 01-24-2010, 01:04 AM.

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          • #20
            Re: So, its about that time of year...

            Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
            And yet we fired him for a bad 1/2 season while we ride out 3 bad seasons already of JOB.
            I'm a big Rick Carlisle fan and hated to see us fire him, but I understood it too. We didn't fire him because of his 1/2 a bad season, we fired him because he refused to run an uptempo offense, and at the time it looked like thats what our team needed. Of course we followed that up by drafting players made for a half court offense and really just threw us back to square one.

            I do miss Rick Carlisle though - I think he would get the best out of guys like Hibbert and Rush.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: So, its about that time of year...

              d_c - I'll take an agressive Granger who brings the intensity that Wallace does every single night than a panzee Granger who shoots 12 3's a game - even if it comes with a few more injuries. I'm not saying Granger is a panzee, but your star needs to get to the FT line as much as possible, not settle for jumpers all game long.
              Agreed 100%. Of the players averaging at least 20 points per game, Danny is one of only two players averaging more 3-point attempts than free throw attempts per game. We all know which shot yields a higher percentage (heck I would be ecstatic if he shot more mid-ranges, anything to balance the 3's). Also, if you look at the numbers of the superstars, the ability to get to the line is part of what separates them from the rest. Wade, LeBron, Melo, Durant, and Howard average between 9 to 10 free throw attempts a game.

              I like your draft board. I would love to have Evan Turner as the starting SG of this team, hopefully if the Pacers land him O'Brien won't ruin his nice all-around game by telling him to chuck up 3's!
              Last edited by OrganizedConfusion; 01-24-2010, 01:20 AM.

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              • #22
                Re: So, its about that time of year...

                Originally posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
                Removed do to length
                Wait for it ......... wait for it.......Awesome job, although I don't agree with all of it, wonderful job of stating your opinions. Thanks for posting.

                I'm to lazy to go through point by point, but I do agree with most of it.

                I'm a big Carlisle fan too.
                "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG" - Carol "The Walking Dead"

                Comment


                • #23
                  Re: So, its about that time of year...

                  Originally posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
                  d_c - I'll take an agressive Granger who brings the intensity that Wallace does every single night than a panzee Granger who shoots 12 3's a game - even if it comes with a few more injuries. I'm not saying Granger is a panzee, but your star needs to get to the FT line as much as possible, not settle for jumpers all game long.
                  You wouldn't mind a few more injuries to Danny Granger? I guess it was OK with everyone that Jermaine O'neal had a few more injuries like he did. Haven't heard any complaints about that from Pacer fans.

                  I'm sure most Pacer fans are glad Reggie Miller played like a panzee that never drove to the basket, shot 3s and coasted his way through most of the regular season. Pacing himself with that style of play is why he was fresh for the playoffs and played effectively all the way into his late 30s.

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                  • #24
                    Re: So, its about that time of year...

                    Dr. A-

                    In addition to the obvious guys you alluded to (Kobe, James, Wade,
                    Howard and Paul), without hesitation, I'd also include the following
                    guys that, if given the choice, I'd take over Granger, Deron Williams
                    (PG is a 'premium' position), Rose (ditto), Durant and Roy.

                    Depending on the system I planned on running, etc, I'd prolly
                    add guys like Bosh, Anthony and Nowitzki. And if assumed
                    healthy, probably Stoudemire and Yao Ming. And then there
                    are guys like Parker, Gasol, Gay, Joe Johnson and and Ginobli
                    who are more or less at a similar level as DG.

                    Don't get me wrong. I like Granger as a player. I just don't consider
                    him 'great' at anything. He's a very good scorer, an 'at times' pretty
                    good defender and at times, pretty good rebounder for his position.

                    Finally, I don't expect him to ever be 'great' in any of those areas.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: So, its about that time of year...

                      Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                      Buck, are you so close to this that you don't realize you are defending "Versace" right now? 10 years from now I think you are going to regret some of the stuff from the last few years.

                      Rick's got 3 ECFs in him with 3 different squads (ie, 2-3 main parts different), so is he 3 times the coach JOB is? Most people outside of Indy think so. And yet we fired him for a bad 1/2 season while we ride out 3 bad seasons already of JOB.





                      .
                      I was objecting to Jim O'Brien being called a moron. Why not just say he is a horrible coach if that is what you believe, the term moron to me seems more personal and completely unnecessary.

                      Seth, all I said in this thread was to point out that a "moron" was able to get an average Celtics team to game 6 of the ECF. And that was by any objective or subjective measure a great coaching job.

                      Seth your claim that we are in the third bad season under O'Brien I think is just wrong. I think by any objective measure getting this team the past two seasons to win 36 games in each season was a nice coaching job and then when you watch the games the past two seasons, the team played hard and together - the coaches did a very nice job the past two seasons. Not suggesting Jim should have won coach of the year, but 36 wins is IMO maximizing the talent.

                      This season not so much.

                      Still though the tone in this forum this season towards O'Brien has turned nasty and at this point I should just shut up (and I am trying to, but sometimes certain comments are over the top) most of you have given up on Jim and are beyond giving him a fair shot
                      Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-25-2010, 09:15 AM.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: So, its about that time of year...

                        I agree with Buck here. JOB frustrates me, but who are we to call him a moron?

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Re: So, its about that time of year...

                          Originally posted by Zelmo Beatty View Post
                          Dr. A-

                          In addition to the obvious guys you alluded to (Kobe, James, Wade,
                          Howard and Paul), without hesitation, I'd also include the following
                          guys that, if given the choice, I'd take over Granger, Deron Williams
                          (PG is a 'premium' position), Rose (ditto), Durant and Roy.

                          Depending on the system I planned on running, etc, I'd prolly
                          add guys like Bosh, Anthony and Nowitzki. And if assumed
                          healthy, probably Stoudemire and Yao Ming. And then there
                          are guys like Parker, Gasol, Gay, Joe Johnson and and Ginobli
                          who are more or less at a similar level as DG.

                          Don't get me wrong. I like Granger as a player. I just don't consider
                          him 'great' at anything. He's a very good scorer, an 'at times' pretty
                          good defender and at times, pretty good rebounder for his position.

                          Finally, I don't expect him to ever be 'great' in any of those areas.
                          First off, you really think that granger is on the same level as rudy gay? rudy gay doesnt play a lick of defense. and has really only developed a shot until THIS year. and if it wasnt for DG getting hurt, i think all this granger controversy wouldnt have started.

                          Secondly, if granger is 'good' at so many categories...doesnt that make him a 'great' overall player?
                          "To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice the gift." - Steve Prefontaine

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Re: So, its about that time of year...

                            Originally posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
                            Good write-up. Personally, I was intrigued by your assessement of Brandon Rush, and the recommendation to put him at PG. I could see it. IMHO, I always thought that Rush set-up Roy in the post better THAN ANYONE on the team. He recoginzes when to feed to him and when not. One play (I think it was the Hornerts game) that comes to mind that made me mad when Brandon elected to not pass it to Roy and passed to Granger only to have Granger turn it over trying to feed Roy although Rush didn't. Now, I will disagree with him not being a playmaker. I believe he makes solid decisions on offense, but it's not a playmaker in the sense that he can breakdown the D with dribble moves (but he could work on them during the offseason). Interesting stat about Rush, he averages 1.0 TPG while averagin 27.4 MPG.

                            Your thoughts about Bird was spot-on. I trust Bird, but he can be stubborn at times. I'm going to wait until Tyler is 100% healthy, before I'll pass judgement on him. The boy hasn't been healthy for a while now.

                            Future Starting 5....

                            Rush
                            D. Jones
                            Granger
                            Hansbrough
                            Hibbert


                            Hmmm....could it work?
                            who would play PG? The opposing defense would trap us every time....we wouldnt be able to get the ball past half...kind of like what happened when Sarunas was in town
                            "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.


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                            • #29
                              Re: So, its about that time of year...

                              Originally posted by IndyProdigy View Post
                              First off, you really think that granger is on the same level as rudy gay? rudy gay doesnt play a lick of defense. and has really only developed a shot until THIS year. and if it wasnt for DG getting hurt, i think all this granger controversy wouldnt have started.

                              Secondly, if granger is 'good' at so many categories...doesnt that make him a 'great' overall player?
                              Yeah, Gay definitely doesn't deserve to be mentioned in that group of players.

                              Chauncey Billups should be on that list, as well as Steve Nash, Paul Pierce, and maybe Gerald Wallace.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Re: So, its about that time of year...

                                Originally posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
                                What game was that anyway? I do remember you making that comment, and I was thinking the same exact thing when it happened.
                                Me, too.

                                Isn't it sad? A non-play / play that succinctly reflects an understanding of basic fundamentals of basketball and recognizing when coverage prohibits passing into the post can elicit a response of "Wow, good job Brandon!" (which I felt when he held onto the ball), followed by "WTF are you thinking, Danny?" when seconds later he went ahead and attempted to make the exact same play with the exact same coverage in the exact same position on the floor and committed the TO. It should just be routine that a player makes the right decision in a situation like this one where most teams have those plays occur on a nightly basis, and underscores once more how little fundamentals are focused on here. Otherwise, why would we have noticed it as much as we did?

                                If we could combine Brandon's IQ, Danny's aggressiveness, Brandon's defense, and Danny's shooting ability from 2008-2009 (not his current), we would have our very own top tier superstar player.

                                Wonder Twins Power -- Activate!

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