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Thread: So, its about that time of year...

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    Default So, its about that time of year...

    I'm reletively new to this board, at least in the since that this is my first full season posting here regularly...thats a weird word, "regularly". Anyway, I knew quite a few posters here from other boards before coming here and some of them know that at least once a year I like to post a thread that is basically one amorphous blob of opinion. Usually I try to hit on all the big subjects - players, coaches, GM, ect. from all different angles. This usually tends to be pretty long, so I doubt people will read the whole thing, but it has sparked some good discussions in the past on other boards. So I'm hoping it will do the same thing here. When I do this, I try to be as unbiased as possible. I like to think I'm a fairly unbiased fan, though I'm sure there will be some that disagree with that. Anyway, here it goes:

    Players:

    Danny Granger - If you had asked me last year whether or not I thought Danny could be a franchise player, I would have told you "yes". Now, I'm not so sure he will be, though I still think he can be. For whatever reason, I don't see the same fire behind Granger that I saw last year - now he's been settling for too many jumpshots/3's and avoiding contact. I think if Danny could develop the mentality of Gerald Wallace that he could be a top 7 player in the NBA. Granger has a unique gift in the sense that he could do it all. However, it seems we now get a Danny that focus' primarily on offense - which we do need from him, but I want to see the defensive/rebounding menace side of Danny more than we do. He only seems to bring that out against the LeBron's and Pierce's of the NBA. I want to see Granger step up and be "that guy" but he needs to stop taking so many 3's and give 100% on defense and rebounding all the time. I don't care if his scoring drops, look what Wallace has done in Charlotte - Granger is far more talented and could make a much bigger impact than that, especially since we have a better supporting cast.

    Roy Hibbert - I feel sorry for Roy. Here is a guy, who has worked his tail off since getting drafted by the Pacers, only to get stuck with a coach who doesn't have the slightest idea how to use him. I don't care who you have on your team, when you have a guy with Hibbert's size and skills, you develop him. I honestly believe our offense should revolve around Hibbert and not Granger. Clearly Granger is the better offensive player, but if you want to win you go inside out. When Hibbert starts, we'll go to him early, just to show the other team we will - then we don't pass the ball to him again until the 4the quarter for a few plays. Hibbert would even make it an easy transition as he is a very good passer for a big man and has actually drawn a lot of double teams. Granger and Rush would benefit greatly if our offense was ran around Hibbert for the full game. Heck, even Murphy would get more open looks. Also, I don't care who we are playing, Hibbert should start every game. We need to play our game, not the other teams. As for his defense, I believe he is better than he is given credit for. Most young Centers always get in foul trouble as it is, when you have guys like Ford, Dunleavy, Head, ect. on the perimeter who can't stay in front of their man and a guy like Murphy next to him, he is trying to guard his man, plus the guy who burned one of our bad defenders. If we had a good defensive PF next to him, I think he would shine more defensively.

    Brandon Rush - I have a feeling this one will spark a lot of controversy. Mainly because I still believe Brandon Rush has All-Star talent and potential. Much like Hibbert, I feel Rush is being misused. I live in Charlotte, and while I have always been a Pacers fan - I once had a quarter of the season tickets to the Charlotte Hornets. This was the year that Eddie Jones was an All-Star. Brandon Rush reminds me so much of Eddie Jones its ridiculous. When we first traded Williams to Dallas for Jones and the picks I was stoked because I thought Eddie Jones would be the perfect mentor. Point is, Rush is oozing with talent, but his talent is great for a set offense, not street ball. If we ran a half court offense through Hibbert, Rush would start to emerge as a good player I think. Even now, I would say Rush is one of the best one-on-one perimeter defenders in the NBA, he rarely gets lost and rarely falls for pump fakes. In fact, about 90% of the points his guys score on him seem to be very well set screens that he has to take the long way around. I can't say much about his team defense as we don't play team defense, but I'll say right now - once we make the playoffs, however long that takes, the NBA will start to notice Rush.

    Tyler Hansbrough - Tyler isn't a starter. Sorry to break it to all the fans hoping he will be, but he isn't. However, I will maintain till the day he leaves the NBA that he is a great guy to have off the bench. A huge discussion around here has been wether or not Tyler will improve his shooting % over his career. I think he will, but I don't think he'll ever have a good shooting %. He's far too agressive to only take very smart shots all the time - but with that comes all the FTA he will be getting which is why I'm okay with it. I hope we see Hansbrough retire a Pacer, I have a feeling he is our new Jeff Foster - however, I think he'll be more effective at Foster's age. I'll also say this. I am a die hard Tar Heel fan and have watched him for the last 4 years, but his defense in the NBA is so much better than he ever showed in college. Whenever we have played a team who went small ball, Hansbrough has had to guard a few SF's and has somehow played good perimeter defense on them, I was shocked - I never thought he would be the defender he is right now in the NBA, much less in his rookie year.

    AJ Price - Like Hansbrough, Price isn't a starter on a competitive team, however, like Hansbrough, I think he is a great player to have on the bench. Championship teams have role players like Hansbrough and Price and it looks like we found two of them in one draft. What has impressed me the most with Price is his attitude, he looks like a 10 year vet out on the court, not rookie like at all. Quite frankly, I think he should be starting over Watson as he seems to run the offense better than Watson does. This also goes back to my view of running the offense through Hibbert as Price would just give Hibbert more room to work with than Watson would. Price also seems to be the best playmaker we've had since Tinsley and before that Jackson. It is very refreshing seeing someone with his mentality and playmaking at the PG position. Like I said though - even though I wouldn't mind him starting the next few years(same with Hansbrough), I feel on a competitive team, he is a great backup, not a starter.

    Dahntay Jones - Jones is kinda a weird player for me. His defense hasn't been near as good as I had hoped, but his offense has been better than I anticipated. Some nights his defense looks great and his offense is terrible, then the next night is offense looks good and his defense is decent. I wish he could put them together more often than he does. Definitely a good role player on a Championship contender, but I'm not sure if he should really be in our future plans.

    Jeff Foster - I love the guy, who doesn't? But lets be honest, he has taken many steps back over the last few seasons. On top of being officially injury prone, he has always been a hustle player, players like that fade out more quickly when they can't rely on skill. As much as I wanted to see him retire as a Pacer, we would be much better off, as would he, if we traded him to a contender before everyone catches on that he isn't the same player he was a few seasons ago.

    Troy Murphy - Troy has definitely picked it up lately, which is a great thing as I was afraid his draft stock would start to slip. Now with his recent play, I think his value has rised a great deal to contending teams. Troy has taken a lot of heat around here, myself included, but in the big scheme of things, I don't think he deserves it. Jim O'Brien does not teach defense, I don't care what anyone says, I have not seen one bit of evidence since he has arrived in Indiana that he gives a lick about defense. On a good team, with a good coach, Murphy can be a decent defender. He tries, its not like he doesn't give effort, but we have no team defense, so weak individual defenders stand out that much more. Kinda like how Ray Allen's defense was masked once moving to Boston, I think a similar thing would happen with Murphy in a place like, oh I don't know, Cleveland? (Kinda like Mo Williams as well)

    TJ Ford - TJ Ford might honestly be the worst PG the Pacers have had since I've been a fan - which is as long as I can remember. He is to quote Sir Charles "turrible". I think he is part victim to Obie's style too though. Obie lets the team do whatever they want, Ford can be an effective PG if held under control. Obie doesn't do that. When Ford is running wild, he brings the whole team down with him, much like Tinsley did. Tinsley was very solid under a controlled offense like Carlisle ran, even if Tinsley thought he was better off in an up-tempo offense. Even though both of their skills match an up-tempo offense, they need a coach to control the offense so they can be held in check. At this point, his value is shot - hopefully we can unload him in the summer as an expiring contract.

    Mike Dunleavy - He is not the same player. I'm not even talking physically after returning from injury. He has seemed to lost what made him so effective, his high bball I.Q. He makes a lot of dumb mistakes now and doesn't seem like an effective playmaker like he was. I don't know, I'm just not sold on the player he is now - but I guess I wasn't even after his break out year either. Hopefully we will trade him sometime before next season, though I doubt that will happen. For what its worth, I like the role he has now off the bench, and his shot can still be sweet, though much more inconsistant. If he can pick up that consistancy and regain his I.Q., he will be a good bench player - I just hope we don't resign him after next season.

    Luther Head - Pretty much what I think everyone was expecting of him when we signed him. He is what, 6'2, 6'3? He should not be playing SG ever. The problem is, he isn't a PG either. Even when he goes on his scoring spurts, he is a 6'2 guy trying to guard 6'6 guys. I like him as a spark off the bench, but only in a 5-10 minute role as a PG.

    Earl Watson - I like him a lot as a backup PG. He has been decent as the starter, but if the ultimate goal is a Championship in the future, he is more suitable as a backup. I do think he could be a good role player on a Championship team though. Thats one reason I like the wya Bird has built this team, our role players are all the type of role players you see on Championship teams, but Bird needs to add another star for any of them to make the impact the could. Watson is a solid vet though, I don't know how his future will play out in Indiana as I like to think Price is our second stringer moving forward, but maybe keep him until we can find our permanent solution to the first string PG position.

    Josh McRoberts - I loved the potential that McRoberts showed last year, thats part of the reason I really didn't want to draft Hansbrough, even though I'm a Tar Heel fan. However, I think his potential is fading away. He isn't getting time for a reason, nothing Obie does makes sense anyway, but if AJ Price earned his way into the lineup, something makes me think McRoberts could too if he was doing wel in practice. Regardless of his situation, I love him as a 3rd string PF.

    Solomon Jones - I'm actually really, really happy with Jones as a backup Center to Hibbert. He brings some energy and defense off the bench and has actually been better offensively than I was expecting. Good player to have off the bench, especially at the price we got him at.

    Travis Diener - Wait, he's still on the Pacers? -_0 Whats there to say about Diener, he is solid when he gets time - has hit some big shots with us before, but he is where he belongs. If we were going to have to have a 4th/5th string PG, I can't think of a better player for the job, except for maybe Ed Cota or Sundiatta(sp?) Gaines.

    Coach:

    Jim O'Brien - I hope that everyone understands that when I say this, I mean it, I'm not saying this as a joke or an exaggeration, but I honestly believe that Jim O'Brien is not fit to coach a YMCA team. This guy, is the dumbest coach I have ever seen in my entire life. Keep in mind, I am a 49ers fan and have seen some God awful offensive cordinators come through over the past few years and a Tar Heels fan and suffered through the Doherty years. Jim O'Brien is a moron, thats all there is too it. I think he might have sold his soul to the devil for the ability to manipulate his way into someone giving him a job.

    Three games. Thats all it took. Three games into his 1st year with the Pacers I called that he was a terrible coach. Everyone was bashing me saying I wasn't giving him enough time, but after 3 games I could see that he had no clue what he was doing and was too stubborn to change things. I honestly don't want to get into everything that he does wrong because this whole post would take 10x longer, though if someone would like me to clarify late, just post it and I'll explain in further detail why I think he should be banned from basketball.

    GM:

    Larry Bird - Its funny, I can see the direction that Larry is trying to take the Pacers and I love it, however I think he is going about it in the wrong way. I can tell that Larry knows what it takes to build a Championship team, but I also think he is trying to skip a few steps. Right now, he wants to win and rebuild at the same time. The only way that ever happens is with a lot of luck and I personally don't want to rely on luck, especially with our history with it. Larry has brought in the perfect core for a Championship team. Every Championship team is filled with players like Granger, Rush, Hibbert, Hansbrough, Price, Jones, Jones, and Watson. When I say that, I mean they could all be very valuable to teams who could win Championships. However, Granger is the only star we have right now, and while I think Hibbert and Rush could potentially develop into much better players than they are right now, we don't have a coach that supports that, and even then, we would need another sure fire player to go with Granger.

    I also think Bird is a little too stubborn for his own good. Bird isn't the type of guy to admit when he is wrong, but he should have fired O'Brien a long time ago, I believe the only reason O'Brien is still here is because Bird doesn't want to admit he made a mistake by hiring him. Bird and Carlisle were friends, which makes me wonder why he is hesitant to fire O'Brien, but the truth is, there isn't one good reason to keep him. Maybe O'Brien is blackmailing him? I don't know, but Bird needs to find a coach who knows how to coach.

    Also, I think Bird needs to learn when to sell high. After Dunleavy's career year, I was constantly saying we needed to trade him while his value was high - in fact, most Raptor fans said they would have liked to see a Dunleavy for Bargnani deal, with some of them even saying they'd throw in a 1st. Of course, the next year Dunleavy got hurt and Bargnani broke out into a pretty good player. The point is, Dunleavy should not be considered apart of the core moving forward, even if Bird liked Dunleavy, he should have known this. When you have a player with high value who isn't a good player for a rebuilding process, you need to unload him for pieces for the future. We could have gotten a very good young piece to go with Dunleavy after that year, now we are stuck with him. Murphy is a different case I think, I doubt Murphy's value was ever as high as it is now, which is why Bird needs to look at this team, and pull the trigger on the best deal he can get instead of thinking he's getting shortchanged. I would love to see us get a 1st or Danny Green out of a Cleveland deal, but if the best offer we get is straight expirings, Bird needs to take it. I hope he doesn't try to oversell his players again, which is something I've heard hes done in the past.

    My last beef with Bird is last years draft. Going into the draft, the two positions we needed were a PG and a PF. Like I've said, I love Hansbrough, but last year was possibly the best PG draft ever and this year is one of the best PF drafts ever. It made no sense to draft a PF in a sea of PGs, especially since we are still without a PG and there are no PG prospects outside of the #1 pick in this draft. If we took Lawson or Holiday last year, we would have been able to get a guy like Davis, Favors, Monroe, Cousins, Aldrich, ect. this year. I will take Lawson or Holiday paired with any of those PF's over Hansbrough paired with whatever positon we manage to get this year any day.

    I think Bird has all the know-how on how to build a team, but at the same time I think he is too stubborn to do it the right way. At least in my opinion.

    How I Would Do It:

    As the Coach - Like I said earlier, the first thing I would do is build the offense around Hibbert. Its not often you find a 7'3 Center with the post skills that he has, even if he doesn't lead the team in scoring, he needs to be the #1 option. I would limit Granger to 5 3's a game, unless he was shooting over 50% after the first 5, in which case he could shoot them until he went below 50% - obviously he could shoot open 3's too, but never in the first 5 seconds of the shot clock. If we ran the offense through Hibbert, I think Granger would be much more effective on offense, especially if he is limited in the # of 3's he took. Take tonight for instance, Granger was driving to the hole instead of jacking up 3's. Look at all the FT's he took, then look at the big W next to the game. Granger has the ability to take it to the hole and get to the line, that needs to be his first option if he's ever going to be the leader I think he can be. As for Brandon Rush - I take a few games out of the schedule and try to get Rush to step up. I would take him aside, and say something along the lines of "I want you to score 25 points tonight, I don't care how many shots it takes you to get there, just do it. If you don't you won't play for another 3 games." I realize an offense ran through a player forcing shots like I imagine he would be would probably get us a loss, but I think it would be important for Rush to know he has the ability to take over. I would do that for a few games during the year until he got it and could go on scoring spurts reguraly. Also, I'm sure everyone here will think I'm crazy, but I would want to try Rush at PG for maybe 5 minutes per game. If anyone has noticed, he has the best handles on the team - not the best playmaker, but the best dribbler. He has pulled a few Tinsley's out there as of late. I would love to give him 5 minutes at PG just to see what he could do, because if he could hold down that positon for a few stretches throughout the game, we would have a HUGE defensive advantage. His defense would hinder the other teams PG from starting their offense, especially if we have Granger and Jones on the wings to help defend also. As for Granger, I take him aside and show him clips of Gerald Wallace and ask him to be a team player on offense and defense. I'm not saying he isn't a team player - but right now Granger is playing to maybe 6 tenths of the talent he has. I would ask him to do all the little things I know he is capable of doing. Put those games with the Rush scoring games and have learn other roles. Both of them are do-it-all kind of talents, I would do everything possible to bring out the best in them from all angles, not just focus on one aspect of their game.

    The big thing for me as a coach is size and defense. I believe size and defense wins Championships. I would not want a PG under 6'2, a SG under 6'6, a SF under 6'8, a PF under 6'10, or a Center under 7'0. Ideally they would be an inch or two taller than that though. Thats why I prefer guys like Rush to guys like Kevin Martin. As good of a scorer as Kevin is, I would prefer a defensive menace, I believe the go farther in the long run. Defense wins Championships, I want great defenders.

    As the GM - The whole drafting Hansbrough thing put me in a tough spot of where to go. I feel we are still without a starting PF and PG moving forward, and while I think we found great backups in Price and Hansbrough, I'd much rather have Lawson or Holiday to work with going into a PF heavy draft. Since that isn't possible, my first move would be to pick up a late pick. I don't think Murphy for Z/1st is out of the range of possibility, but if the Cavs are hesitant on that, I would throw in Luther Head to get it done. We shed a little more salary and they would get a temp while their PGs are out, and a player who could be a huge spark and spread the floor for LeBron. This gives us some cap room and another 1st to work with. I would also move Foster to a contender for expirings, which seems reasonable enough.

    Come draft night, lets say we end up with the 5th pick or later - I would honestly probably trade it at this point. For me this draft is Wall and Henry or bust in my book - though Ed Davis really interests me, I don't think he will be ready for a few years. When I say that though, I don't mean I don't think its a good draft, because it is - but it is a PF heavy draft, with most of them being projects. I think we would be better off trying to trade the #5 pick for that guy we need next to Granger. #5 could get us a good player to go with Granger, Hibbert, Rush, ect. I know NJ fans said that if they get Wall they would be up for a #5/Harris swap. I'm not sure if thats the trade I would want, but a Harris/Rush/Granger/Hansbrough/Hibbert core is nice moving forward, especially with Price and the Jones' off the bench. If we could somehow trade Hansbrough and the late Cavs 1st for a starting PF, we would be even more set until we can fill out our bench a little better.

    I don't think theres all that many moves the Pacers can make this year to make a huge change, but if we were going to try, trading the #5 pick would be a start. Outside of the Wall and Henry, I don't see anyone who would be worth it over a guy like Harris. I'm sure some of those potential guys could really blossom and usually I'm all over potential players, but I don't think the Pacers could afford a miss at this stage in the rebuild.

    Scouting:

    Players that I think would be a great fit for the Pacers:

    Raymond Felton - I think he could break out with the Pacers. He reminds me a lot of Chauncy Billups in the sense that I think he will be a late bloomer. He has already shown to be a good defender, good leader, and very clutch - now he just needs to pull them all together. If the Pacers can trade Murphy and Foster for expirings, we might have enough money to make a run at him, though it would be difficult. I think Felton would be the perfect PG for the Pacers moving forward though.

    Ronny Turiaf - The closest thing to Dale Davis that I see in the NBA. I know the Warriors love him, so I don't think it would be easy to get him, not even sure we could, but I think he would be a great fit next to Hibbert. He brings energy, toughness, and defense to the PF positon. Exactly the type of player the Pacers need at the PF spot.

    Danny Green - I would love for us to somehow get him out of the Murphy/Z deal if it happens, but I doubt that he will be a throw in. He is a do-it-all kind of player that I love. Will never be more than a role player, but could be a very good one who will step up big in certain situations and become a fan favorite with his pregame dance.

    Hakim Warrick - I would love to have this guy off the bench for us. Again, another guy who probably isn't attainable, but seems like a good guy for us to have when Granger needs a rest. He is a do-it-all kinda player who would provide a spark along with some highlights.

    Terrence Williams - Definitely not attainable, but definitely a guy that I think would be great for this Pacers team. The Pacers need a guy with some attitude like that, someone who will get under the skin of wing players while Tyler takes care of the post players.

    Players to look at in the draft:

    John Wall - No explanation needed, he will be a star providing he doesn't get injured.

    Evan Turner - Looks like Brandon Roy light. A guy that size with handles like that and who gives it all the whole game is very rare. He is #2 on my board at this point.

    Ed Davis - The guy has so much potential, but will need to bulk up if he ever wants to reach his potential. If he does bulk up, I think he could be a lot like JO was in his prime.

    Greg Monroe - Probably not going to be a great player, but I could see him being a Aldridge type of player in the NBA. Definitely could be a useful starting PF.

    Jarvis Varnado - Could be a great pick late in the 1st round, reminds me of Josh Smith defensively.

    Players to avoid drafting:

    Patrick Patterson - I really don't like undersized guys. He won't be able to outmuscle NBA players like he does in college. He reminds me a lot of Ike Diogu. Not a good defender in college, will be even worse in the NBA.

    Willie Warren - I would probably like him a lot more if he was 2 inches taller, I hate short players though.

    Dexter Pittman - Sorry Pittman, Glen Davis already secured the overweight guy who made it position for the next few years.

    Kyle Singler - Will be in Europe in 4 years. Will probably be a much better player over there anyway, but his game/athleticism won't allow him to succeed in the NBA I don't think.

    Solomon Alabi - Nothing against him, but its hard for young Centers to make it in the NBA. I see a lot of potential there, but I doubt he gets there.










    Thats it haha, sorry for how long it was. I'm going to pursue a career as a writer, so once I get going it tends to go on for a while haha. For any of those who read the whole thing, just message me your adress and I could possibly send over a cookie - though if you actually gave me your adress I would probably just order you 20 pizzas instead(just to warn you 0_0). Hopefully this will bring up good conversations like it has on other boards, thanks for taking the time to read it for those who did and if you didn't I understand haha. I left out a few things suprisingly, but I have to work tomorrow so I figured I'd cut a few corners haha.

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    Why do people make bold statements about Hansbrough when he hasn't even had one game with the leash off yet? I see a lot of it here and still can't understand it, We have no idea what he can or can't do yet!

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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    You lost me when you said that Granger could be a 'top-7' player in
    the NBA. The only way that could happen is for alot of other guys
    to retire all at once.

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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    Hansbrough has yet to play a full speed game with no time restrictions due to health issues in anything close to what our preferred lineups would be. It is a huge disservice to him, and to Bird for drafting him, to judge him in any way. We likely will not even have much to judge him on until next year when he returns to health and is able to be conditioned at an NBA level and then meshes with another completely unknown lineup and hopefully another entire coaching staff utilizes him in a different way.

    Remarkably, your prescribed treatment of Rush is at least similar to the early treatment of Rush by O'B, which set him back approximately a year, and is why he is just now beginning to become effective offensively. I do agree with you that Rush has the tools and athleticism to be an elite player in the league. I actually believe he is more athletic than Granger, but Rush has personality issues that are impeding his development, and that was exacerbated by O'B.

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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
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    Ronny Turiaf - The closest thing to Dale Davis that I see in the NBA.
    Ummmm...What to say? What to sayyy?


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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    Might disagree on some details here and there, but I think overall there's a lot of valid points raised here.

    I particularly like your section on Bird. The whole thing with his approach to trading and his assessment of talent and value relative to the team's direction is interesting. I, too, have had concerns regarding this. I agree regarding Murphleavy and the trade timing thing. Arguably, those BOTH of them could easily have been moved by now. Troy due to his career year last year, although he's maintained pretty well and is that much closer to his contract ending I suppose.

    Tyler=New Foster. I like that comparison. Although Tyler has a great chance to contribute more on offense. Still, I also forsee him as a bench contributor, not a full fledged starting PF.

    Rush? Best thing to do is moderate to McKey-like expectations due to his mental/attitude approach on court. If he manages to exceed that, then we'll be very pleased.

    Edit: Oh yeah. Turiaf to DD comparison. I don't think so. That's not to say he might not have some value to us, but I just don't see RT as a full-time banger/enforcer. He can block shots and he hustles, but I don't see the toughness, strenght, and intimidation.
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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    Good write-up. Personally, I was intrigued by your assessement of Brandon Rush, and the recommendation to put him at PG. I could see it. IMHO, I always thought that Rush set-up Roy in the post better THAN ANYONE on the team. He recoginzes when to feed to him and when not. One play (I think it was the Hornerts game) that comes to mind that made me mad when Brandon elected to not pass it to Roy and passed to Granger only to have Granger turn it over trying to feed Roy although Rush didn't. Now, I will disagree with him not being a playmaker. I believe he makes solid decisions on offense, but it's not a playmaker in the sense that he can breakdown the D with dribble moves (but he could work on them during the offseason). Interesting stat about Rush, he averages 1.0 TPG while averagin 27.4 MPG.

    Your thoughts about Bird was spot-on. I trust Bird, but he can be stubborn at times. I'm going to wait until Tyler is 100% healthy, before I'll pass judgement on him. The boy hasn't been healthy for a while now.

    Future Starting 5....

    Rush
    D. Jones
    Granger
    Hansbrough
    Hibbert

    Hmmm....could it work?
    Last edited by ksuttonjr76; 01-23-2010 at 04:43 PM.

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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
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    Players:

    Danny Granger - If you had asked me last year whether or not I thought Danny could be a franchise player, I would have told you "yes". Now, I'm not so sure he will be, though I still think he can be. For whatever reason, I don't see the same fire behind Granger that I saw last year - now he's been settling for too many jumpshots/3's and avoiding contact. I think if Danny could develop the mentality of Gerald Wallace that he could be a top 7 player in the NBA. Granger has a unique gift in the sense that he could do it all. However, it seems we now get a Danny that focus' primarily on offense - which we do need from him, but I want to see the defensive/rebounding menace side of Danny more than we do. He only seems to bring that out against the LeBron's and Pierce's of the NBA. I want to see Granger step up and be "that guy" but he needs to stop taking so many 3's and give 100% on defense and rebounding all the time. I don't care if his scoring drops, look what Wallace has done in Charlotte - Granger is far more talented and could make a much bigger impact than that, especially since we have a better supporting cast.


    Ronny Turiaf - The closest thing to Dale Davis that I see in the NBA. I know the Warriors love him, so I don't think it would be easy to get him, not even sure we could, but I think he would be a great fit next to Hibbert. He brings energy, toughness, and defense to the PF positon. Exactly the type of player the Pacers need at the PF spot.
    Asking Granger to play as you described would result in seeing him in sitting at the end of the bench wearing street clothes a lot more often.

    And Turiaf is nothing like Dale Davis. Not even close. He's an energy/hustle guy who blocks a few shots but rebounds poorly and doesn't really defend the paint that well. He can't defend his man in the post nearly as well as Davis did and he's more injury prone. He's not a starting level player. He'll get a few dunks, block a few shots, give some hustle and is a likeable guy, but that's about it.

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    Member ksuttonjr76's Avatar
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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    Might disagree on some details here and there, but I think overall there's a lot of valid points raised here.

    I particularly like your section on Bird. The whole thing with his approach to trading and his assessment of talent and value relative to the team's direction is interesting. I, too, have had concerns regarding this. I agree regarding Murphleavy and the trade timing thing. Arguably, those BOTH of them could easily have been moved by now. Troy due to his career year last year, although he's maintained pretty well and is that much closer to his contract ending I suppose.

    Tyler=New Foster. I like that comparison. Although Tyler has a great chance to contribute more on offense. Still, I also forsee him as a bench contributor, not a full fledged starting PF.

    Rush? Best thing to do is moderate to McKey-like expectations due to his mental/attitude approach on court. If he manages to exceed that, then we'll be very pleased.

    Edit: Oh yeah. Turiaf to DD comparison. I don't think so. That's not to say he might not have some value to us, but I just don't see RT as a full-time banger/enforcer. He can block shots and he hustles, but I don't see the toughness, strenght, and intimidation.
    I don't know about you, but I would LOVE to have Ronny Turiaf beside Hibbert. I've seen him play, and let me tell you...he does remind of Dale Davis at times.

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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    I don't know about you, but I would LOVE to have Ronny Turiaf beside Hibbert. I've seen him play, and let me tell you...he does remind of Dale Davis at times.
    Those times you might see him look like Davis come in short bursts. He's an energy guy. He's not a 30+ minute starter like Davis was in his prime.

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    You are my Lucifer D-BONE's Avatar
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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    I'd be surprised if BR could play PG. Doesn't have the handles to bring it up under heavy pressure, which is exactly what he'd get constantly for that reason. He looks like a classic wing 2/3 to me, but I agree he's a good post feeder.
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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    I'd be surprised if BR could play PG. Doesn't have the handles to bring it up under heavy pressure, which is exactly what he'd get constantly for that reason. He looks like a classic wing 2/3 to me, but I agree he's a good post feeder.
    I'll try anything once if it means a bigger advantage in the long run. According to www.82games.com, he committed 15 "bad passes" and 23 "ball handling turnovers". I thought the same thing about Joe Johnson, and Phoenix used to run him at the PG in sprurts. Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't he widely considered a "PG" before signing with ATL, and his 1st few years?

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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    Quote Originally Posted by ksuttonjr76 View Post
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    Good write-up. Personally, I was intrigued by your assessement of Brandon Rush, and the recommendation to put him at PG. I could see it. IMHO, I always thought that Rush set-up Roy in the post better THAN ANYONE on the team. He recoginzes when to feed to him and when not. One play (I think it was the Hornerts game) that comes to mind that made me mad when Brandon elected to not pass it to Roy and passed to Granger only to have Granger turn it over trying to feed Roy although Rush didn't. Now, I will disagree with him not being a playmaker. I believe he makes solid decisions on offense, but it's not a playmaker in the sense that he can breakdown the D with dribble moves (but he could work on them during the offseason).
    I pointed that out in that night's game thread but in my mind it was a failure to recognize (on Danny's part) that the pass was more risk than worth. Rush choose wisely, Danny did not. Of the players I watch closely, Roy and Danny are not selfish in that they're willing to pass, but they often times pick the wrong spots to do it in. I've seen Roy make bad passes to cutters more times than I can count and Danny has simply thrown a couple balls over Roy's head when he's in the post. I'm not saying they shouldn't pass or can't pass, I just think they shouldn't be taking so much risk when the potential payoff isn't that great.

    Just like great batters don't always go for the homerun, Danny and Roy should try to make the smart play as opposed to the sensational one.

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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    oh it was so long!
    I CANT SPELL!

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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    I pointed that out in that night's game thread but in my mind it was a failure to recognize (on Danny's part) that the pass was more risk than worth. Rush choose wisely, Danny did not. Of the players I watch closely, Roy and Danny are not selfish in that they're willing to pass, but they often times pick the wrong spots to do it in. I've seen Roy make bad passes to cutters more times than I can count and Danny has simply thrown a couple balls over Roy's head when he's in the post. I'm not saying they shouldn't pass or can't pass, I just think they shouldn't be taking so much risk when the potential payoff isn't that great.

    Just like great batters don't always go for the homerun, Danny and Roy should try to make the smart play as opposed to the sensational one.
    What game was that anyway? I do remember you making that comment, and I was thinking the same exact thing when it happened.

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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    http://pacersdigest.com/showthread.p...289#post946289

    Apparently it was the Hornets game, but I kind of thought it was Charlotte too. Of all the teams to confuse, though, those would be the ones.

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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    I'm sorry, but I think calling an NBA head coach a moron is a bit over-the-top and for me it taints your otherwise pretty good post. Just my opinion. I do wonder if Walker and Pierce thought Jim was a moron as he was leading their team to the ECF.

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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    Trying to adress some of the comments:

    AlexAustin/Brad888 - I am not trying to bash Hansbrough, I am a die hard Hansbrough fan. I have watched him for the last 4 years and will root for him until the day he retires, but his game just doesn't translate to a NBA starter on a team that wants to compete. I'd be fine with him starting the next year or two, but eventually if we want to compete we need to find someone else. Like I said, I think he will be a great bench player, possibly one of the best in the NBA, at least in terms of making an impact off the bench - just not a starter to me.

    Zelmo Beatty - The only 5 that I would say are a lock to stay in front of him are Kobe, LeBron, Wade, Paul, and Howard. You have some guys - Kobe included, who are coming torwards the end of their career. Now, I'm not saying we will be a top 7 player, but I honestly feel like if he looked at Gerald Wallace and takes that kind of mentality of doing everything it takes to win - I believe he could be. He is a great scorer, a great defender when he wants to be, a great rebounder when he wants to be, and I think he could develop into a better passer/playmaker. The problem is, he hasn't brought them all together consistantly, but if he could - I think he could potentially be a top 7 player.

    As for the whole Ronny Turiaf thing. Notice, I didn't say he is Dale Davis, I said he is the closest thing to Dale Davis I see in the NBA. I still believe that, I don't see anyone else other than Reggie Evans who's game resembles Davis' all that much. Turiaf is obviously a poor mans Davis, but he brings defensive intensity, rebounding, and toughness. 3 of Dale's best attributes.

    d_c - I'll take an agressive Granger who brings the intensity that Wallace does every single night than a panzee Granger who shoots 12 3's a game - even if it comes with a few more injuries. I'm not saying Granger is a panzee, but your star needs to get to the FT line as much as possible, not settle for jumpers all game long.

    D-Bone - He actually has the best handles on the team I think. Your right though, in the sense that half court ball handling is a lot different than full court ball handling, but I still think he could handle it - especially if its only 5 minutes a game in a trial period.

    Unclebuck - Your right, he did a great job in Boston - I'm still not sure how he managed that, however since coming to the Pacers he has not proved to be a decent coach. He makes the worst basketball decisions I've ever seen a coach make. Maybe he was once a good coach, I don't know - but if he was, he lost his I.Q. somewhere along the line because "moron" is the only way to describe half the decisions he makes now. Just my opinion.

  21. #19
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I'm sorry, but I think calling an NBA head coach a moron is a bit over-the-top and for me it taints your otherwise pretty good post. Just my opinion. I do wonder if Walker and Pierce thought Jim was a moron as he was leading their team to the ECF.
    I'm pretty sure Dalembert did, but what does he know, his team only thumped JOB's team tonight.


    Buck, are you so close to this that you don't realize you are defending "Versace" right now? 10 years from now I think you are going to regret some of the stuff from the last few years.

    Rick's got 3 ECFs in him with 3 different squads (ie, 2-3 main parts different), so is he 3 times the coach JOB is? Most people outside of Indy think so. And yet we fired him for a bad 1/2 season while we ride out 3 bad seasons already of JOB.




    I like the OP, though you can't use Rush at PG, but his choices are why I say he's the guy that helps set up plays. He tends to avoid forcing crap. I suspect that's partly why his FTAs remain low, he doesn't drive junk ball crap he knows he can't make into the lane just begging for a foul.

    I realize that method works but it's not "good" basketball. Rush is not a shake and bake one on one guy. Give him a strategy and he'll make sure it's getting done.

    This offense would have ruined Jax, Rik, Dale, McKey and maybe Reggie. Reggie had to have those screens and other stuff to work off of, he wasn't doing most of his stuff off dribble. None of those guys did. Can you imagine Dale dribbling over the ball screen for a long jumper?



    My only well known disagreement is on Tyler. The hops aren't there and I think people are going to figure out his wildness and stop trying to stop it which is where the fouls come from. Just let him do his crazy stuff and then when he's done let him have the wild shot too and get ready to rebound.



    I disagree on Patterson because I don't view him as undersized at all. He might look small next to the gigantic Cousins, but he's a muscular, healthy PF. He'll get PT vs plenty of bigs and lots of tourney showcase time and I think he'll prove me right then.

    My only warning to Bird is to STOP EVALUATING PROSPECTS THE MINUTE GAMES END
    I don't care about the height, shuttle run, one on ones, etc. Use those ONLY to verify the opinions you already formed while they were giving a real audition - in a live game, typically an important one if it means their tourney life or is a major rival game.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 01-24-2010 at 12:04 AM.

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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    And yet we fired him for a bad 1/2 season while we ride out 3 bad seasons already of JOB.
    I'm a big Rick Carlisle fan and hated to see us fire him, but I understood it too. We didn't fire him because of his 1/2 a bad season, we fired him because he refused to run an uptempo offense, and at the time it looked like thats what our team needed. Of course we followed that up by drafting players made for a half court offense and really just threw us back to square one.

    I do miss Rick Carlisle though - I think he would get the best out of guys like Hibbert and Rush.

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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    d_c - I'll take an agressive Granger who brings the intensity that Wallace does every single night than a panzee Granger who shoots 12 3's a game - even if it comes with a few more injuries. I'm not saying Granger is a panzee, but your star needs to get to the FT line as much as possible, not settle for jumpers all game long.
    Agreed 100%. Of the players averaging at least 20 points per game, Danny is one of only two players averaging more 3-point attempts than free throw attempts per game. We all know which shot yields a higher percentage (heck I would be ecstatic if he shot more mid-ranges, anything to balance the 3's). Also, if you look at the numbers of the superstars, the ability to get to the line is part of what separates them from the rest. Wade, LeBron, Melo, Durant, and Howard average between 9 to 10 free throw attempts a game.

    I like your draft board. I would love to have Evan Turner as the starting SG of this team, hopefully if the Pacers land him O'Brien won't ruin his nice all-around game by telling him to chuck up 3's!
    Last edited by OrganizedConfusion; 01-24-2010 at 12:20 AM.

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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
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    Removed do to length
    Wait for it ......... wait for it.......Awesome job, although I don't agree with all of it, wonderful job of stating your opinions. Thanks for posting.

    I'm to lazy to go through point by point, but I do agree with most of it.

    I'm a big Carlisle fan too.
    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Awesome View Post
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    d_c - I'll take an agressive Granger who brings the intensity that Wallace does every single night than a panzee Granger who shoots 12 3's a game - even if it comes with a few more injuries. I'm not saying Granger is a panzee, but your star needs to get to the FT line as much as possible, not settle for jumpers all game long.
    You wouldn't mind a few more injuries to Danny Granger? I guess it was OK with everyone that Jermaine O'neal had a few more injuries like he did. Haven't heard any complaints about that from Pacer fans.

    I'm sure most Pacer fans are glad Reggie Miller played like a panzee that never drove to the basket, shot 3s and coasted his way through most of the regular season. Pacing himself with that style of play is why he was fresh for the playoffs and played effectively all the way into his late 30s.

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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    Dr. A-

    In addition to the obvious guys you alluded to (Kobe, James, Wade,
    Howard and Paul), without hesitation, I'd also include the following
    guys that, if given the choice, I'd take over Granger, Deron Williams
    (PG is a 'premium' position), Rose (ditto), Durant and Roy.

    Depending on the system I planned on running, etc, I'd prolly
    add guys like Bosh, Anthony and Nowitzki. And if assumed
    healthy, probably Stoudemire and Yao Ming. And then there
    are guys like Parker, Gasol, Gay, Joe Johnson and and Ginobli
    who are more or less at a similar level as DG.

    Don't get me wrong. I like Granger as a player. I just don't consider
    him 'great' at anything. He's a very good scorer, an 'at times' pretty
    good defender and at times, pretty good rebounder for his position.

    Finally, I don't expect him to ever be 'great' in any of those areas.

  28. #25
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: So, its about that time of year...

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Buck, are you so close to this that you don't realize you are defending "Versace" right now? 10 years from now I think you are going to regret some of the stuff from the last few years.

    Rick's got 3 ECFs in him with 3 different squads (ie, 2-3 main parts different), so is he 3 times the coach JOB is? Most people outside of Indy think so. And yet we fired him for a bad 1/2 season while we ride out 3 bad seasons already of JOB.





    .
    I was objecting to Jim O'Brien being called a moron. Why not just say he is a horrible coach if that is what you believe, the term moron to me seems more personal and completely unnecessary.

    Seth, all I said in this thread was to point out that a "moron" was able to get an average Celtics team to game 6 of the ECF. And that was by any objective or subjective measure a great coaching job.

    Seth your claim that we are in the third bad season under O'Brien I think is just wrong. I think by any objective measure getting this team the past two seasons to win 36 games in each season was a nice coaching job and then when you watch the games the past two seasons, the team played hard and together - the coaches did a very nice job the past two seasons. Not suggesting Jim should have won coach of the year, but 36 wins is IMO maximizing the talent.

    This season not so much.

    Still though the tone in this forum this season towards O'Brien has turned nasty and at this point I should just shut up (and I am trying to, but sometimes certain comments are over the top) most of you have given up on Jim and are beyond giving him a fair shot
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-25-2010 at 08:15 AM.

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