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Thread: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    This is pretty simple here is a list of some of our starting point guards over the past few seasons. List them in order. You can either list them as best to worst or you can list them as your favorite to least favorite. I am listing them from their time with the team and it is not a listing of the way I would rank them.

    Vern Fleming
    Pooh Richardson
    Haywood Workman
    Mark Jackson
    Travis Best
    Jalen Rose (yes he played part of the 00/01 season as the p.g.)
    Jamaal Tinsley
    Jarett Jack
    T.J. Ford
    Earl Watson

    I debated putting Jalen in there because he did not play the entire season but I went ahead anyway.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    I can't personally comment on Fleming, Richardson, or Workman.

    Of the rest (best to worst)

    Jackson
    Tinsley (even with all the warts, this is how lacking we've been in the PG department)
    Jack
    Watson
    Ford
    Best
    Rose (as a PG; my memory is VERY hazy, but I remember preferring Best at the point over Jalen, who I liked a lot as a SF)

  3. #3
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    Here would be my list. I am going with my favorites vs saying who was the best although I do believe that my #1 is actually the best.

    1. Mark Jackson (the man was pure magic to watch play)

    2. Haywood Workman (nobody got more out of less than Workman)

    3. Jamaal Tinsley (Yea I know I ended up being against him but when he was on he was very good and he simply is the best dribbler I've ever seen)

    4. Earl Watson (Toss up between Watson and Jack but I think Watson is a better defender)

    5. Jarret Jack (solid worker but lacks ball handling and court vision)

    6. Jalen Rose (this should tell you how bad our p.g.'s have been over the years that I have to put him here)

    7. Vern Fleming (I know some of the older guys liked him but I was just never a fan, not a good passer but a decent defender)


    8. Pooh Richardson (Opposite of Workman, very few players got less out of more talent than Pooh)

    9. T.J. Ford (I have never seen a point guard who jumps in the air so often without knowing what he is going to do with the ball)

    10. Travis Best (dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble,
    dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, shoot, clank)


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    Mark Jackson, crafty player, awesome passing, great floor general, bad D, but he had all the vet tricks.

    JT during the Reggie years, when he had a good team and were winning, he cared and was pretty damn good.

    Jarret Jack, I really liked the guy. He was solid, a hardnosed player, I think he would've thrived with our team now. I might end up liking AJP more.

    Travis Best, same reasons I liked JJack

    adding a selection that wasn't included - Anthony Johnson, good defender, solid vet. He had problems handling the ball, but he could make timely shots, and was good for our slog ball routine.

    Earl Watson - Does everything ok. Can be great on D at times, can hit the 3.

    TJ - I had high hopes for the guy, and maybe without Jim he would be ok, but he flat out stinks in our system. He does have a very nice mid range game, and he can play good D when he wants to.

    Jalen Rose - worst PG ever? That drove me crazy with IT, when Jamaal was banished/ in the doghouse. He also used Ron Mercer at PG which was even worse.

    I don't feel qualified to comment on vern, pooh or haywoode. I did see haywoode and vern play a bit, but I was pretty young.
    Last edited by PaceBalls; 01-15-2010 at 03:13 AM.

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    Da Mouf Squirrelz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    No Erick Strickland? :P

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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    Anyone who is ranking workman over jackson is just simply favoring their favorite era. Workman shouldn't even be named in the same sentence as jackson. Mark Jackson is one of the NBA's all-time leading playmakers. Haywoode workman is a nobody...

    Mark Jackson
    Vern Fleming
    Jamaal Tinsley
    Travis Best
    Haywoode Workman
    Pooh Richardson
    Jalen Rose
    Earl Watson
    TJ Ford

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  9. #7
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    Quote Originally Posted by pacers_heath View Post
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    Anyone who is ranking workman over jackson is just simply favoring their favorite era. Workman shouldn't even be named in the same sentence as jackson. Mark Jackson is one of the NBA's all-time leading playmakers. Haywoode workman is a nobody...

    Mark Jackson
    Vern Fleming
    Jamaal Tinsley
    Travis Best
    Haywoode Workman
    Pooh Richardson
    Jalen Rose
    Earl Watson
    TJ Ford
    Has anybody ranked Workman over Jackson????

    Also wouldn't Workman and Jackson be from the same era seeing as how Woody was the p.g. the season before Jax came and they were team mates here for a year?


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Here would be my list. I am going with my favorites vs saying who was the best although I do believe that my #1 is actually the best.

    1. Mark Jackson (the man was pure magic to watch play)

    2. Haywood Workman (nobody got more out of less than Workman)

    3. Jamaal Tinsley (Yea I know I ended up being against him but when he was on he was very good and he simply is the best dribbler I've ever seen)

    4. Earl Watson (Toss up between Watson and Jack but I think Watson is a better defender)

    5. Jarret Jack (solid worker but lacks ball handling and court vision)

    6. Jalen Rose (this should tell you how bad our p.g.'s have been over the years that I have to put him here)

    7. Vern Fleming (I know some of the older guys liked him but I was just never a fan, not a good passer but a decent defender)


    8. Pooh Richardson (Opposite of Workman, very few players got less out of more talent than Pooh)

    9. T.J. Ford (I have never seen a point guard who jumps in the air so often without knowing what he is going to do with the ball)

    10. Travis Best (dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble,
    dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, dribble, shoot, clank)
    I would use this list for the most part, except moving Vern Fleming up to #3, because Workman would be #4. Fleming could really finish around the rim. He was ummmm, the complete opposite of TJ Ford.

    -- Steve --

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    Denim Chicken duke dynamite's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    Wow, past "few" years? That's a stretch.

    Anyway, Mark Jackson is #1 on this list. Meh on everyone else.

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  13. #10

    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    Mark Jackson
    Haywood Workman

    I liked their personalities, and I liked how they played, and I liked what they accomplished.


    Vern Fleming

    He always seemed gawky to me. But Slick liked him a lot. I always felt that Vern was holding the team back, but maybe he was as good as the teammates he had at the time.

    Jarett Jack

    Played like Heywoode. Not nearly as good as Heywoode, not as good as some posters remember him.

    Pooh Richardson
    Earl Watson

    OK.


    T.J. Ford

    Disappointing. When the Pacers traded for him, I was enthused about what his speed could contribute to a wide-open, fast-breakin' gun-slingin' offense. But we never saw it.


    Travis Best
    Jalen Rose
    Jamaal Tinsley

    I never saw Best and Rose. After 2005, I only saw bad Tinsley.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

  14. #11
    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    1. Jackson
    2. Tinsley
    3. Workman
    4. Fleming
    5. Jalen
    6. Watson
    7. Jack
    8. Best
    9. Anthony Johnson
    10. Ford
    11. Richardson



    I'm hoping Watson replacing Ford has a similar impact to Haywoode replacing Pooh.........
    PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    OK, I'm only going with your list Peck, minus Jalen. I always have to clarify things. This is not based on talent, but rather what I try and judge every NBA player on - how they impacted winning. So naturally thepoint guards that led us to wins are at the top of the list. Stats mean nothing


    1) Mark Jackson
    2) Travis Best - so many forget he finished more close games than did Jackson. The best defender of the group. Yes IMO better than Workman defensively, he rarely if ever got beat off the dribble and he was able to stay in front of the really quick point guards. Sure he wasn;t tall, but he was strong and rarely did he have trouble getting posting up.
    3) Woody - Mr. Intangible and one of the huge reasons why the team turned around that season after starting 17-24 and finished 48-24 and ECF game 7
    4) Jamaal Tinsley - did lead us to 61 wins
    5) Vern
    6) Jack
    7) Watson
    8) Ford
    9) Pooh Richardson - yeah he was the worst. The coach hated him, his teammates hated him, and he was very soft. Good shooter though

    Why so many of you didn't like Travis I'll never understand. But OK, maybe you don't like him, fair enough, I don't like Tinsley, but I placed him at number 4, so I put my hatred aside, and ranked him without regard to whether I liked him or not. TYravis was extremely important to the 1998-2000 Indiana Pacers, and no I'm not talking about the shot he hit against The Bucks in game 5 - he didn't play well in that game. But so many of you are forgetting how many excellent performances he had late in games. if you bought the Pacers DVD box set from a couple of years ago, watch game six at NY and try to tell me he wasn't huge in that game
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-15-2010 at 09:56 AM.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat View Post
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    I'm hoping Watson replacing Ford has a similar impact to Haywoode replacing Pooh.........
    Excellent point

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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Has anybody ranked Workman over Jackson????

    Also wouldn't Workman and Jackson be from the same era seeing as how Woody was the p.g. the season before Jax came and they were team mates here for a year?
    sorry i decided to get on pacers digest after going out to the bar last night lol

  18. #15
    You can call me Taz cinotimz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    I have to agree with Buck. Im not sure how Travis Best is getting such a bad rap here. If not for those teams being veteran team-oriented there very well couldve been a not-so-little pg controversy. Hes a bit in the mold of Tj, but about a thousand times better. On both ends.

  19. #16
    ENABEABLER MagicRat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    Peck mentioned that the list was some of the Pacers starting point guards, so my rankings are based on "as a starter". When Jackson was traded to Denver, Travis started and I didn't much care for him in that role. Apparently nobody else did either because they got Jackson back after about 50 games.

    I'd put Travis at the top of my back up point guard list, though.
    PSN: MRat731 XBL: MRat0731

  20. #17
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    Quote Originally Posted by MagicRat View Post
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    Peck mentioned that the list was some of the Pacers starting point guards, so my rankings are based on "as a starter". When Jackson was traded to Denver, Travis started and I didn't much care for him in that role. Apparently nobody else did either because they got Jackson back after about 50 games.

    I'd put Travis at the top of my back up point guard list, though.
    True - he didn't play well, he was a second year player playing under Larry Brown as a for a team that had injuries and struggled in brown's last season. Travis was not ready to be the point guard on a team that was expected to contend for a championshiop

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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    1. Mark Jackson- knew how to run a team. Should be in the HOF with his assist numbers.

    2. Jamaal Tinsley- when healthy and focused was a solid PG for the Pacers. Similar to Jackson in that he knew when to get certain players the ball.

    3. Travis Best- don't care what anyone says here, Best provided great scoring off the bench. Not really effective as a starter, but was the perfect PG to contribute off the bench. How can anybody forget the shot he made in the 2000 first round game 5 playoffs against the Bucks? Saved the season.

    4. Vern Fleming- great veteran presence from the PG position. Kind of a Jack of all Trades.

    5. Haywoode Workman- didn't play that long here, but simply got it done when given an opportunity.

    6. Michael Williams- the starting PG here during a few playoff seasons in the early 90's. Solid teammate and an outstanding FT shooter.

    7. TJ Ford- scoring PG who can't score. terrible assist numbers as well.

    Not included on my list--

    Jalen Rose- was never really a PG for the Pacers
    Pooh Richardson- was never relevant in a Pacer uniform.
    Jarret Jack- One season played should not warrant any sort of ranking here.

  22. #19
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    I don't need a new list, Peck read my mind.

    The reason I didn't like Travis is that he simply failed to pass when necessary. The games where he contributed defense down the stretch were games we were already ahead. In the few times I remember him being clutch offensively they were often situations where our scoring had already stagnated with him on the floor - had it not happened, his clutch would not have been needed.

    I always prayed for Victor Von Frankenstein to put Mark Jackson's brain into Travis Best's body. Now, THERE would have been a point guard.
    BillS

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    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    1. Mark Jackson
    2. Micheal Williams
    3. Oh my god, this list actually stinks after those two.
    4. Good Tinsley
    5. Workman (wow. ouch. But the results were good in spite of his limitations.)
    6. Fleming (Vern was an odd PG with his no-arc jumper and difficult transition from college SG).
    7. Jarret Jack
    8. Bad Tinsley
    9. Watson
    10T. Travis Ford
    10T. T.J. Best
    12. Piece of Pooh.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  24. #21
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacersfan46 View Post
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    I would use this list for the most part, except moving Vern Fleming up to #3, because Workman would be #4. Fleming could really finish around the rim. He was ummmm, the complete opposite of TJ Ford.

    -- Steve --
    Well put.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  25. #22
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    [quoteChicagoJ] He passed like Mark Jackson (in Mark Jackson's Pacers era he only averaged > 8.2 APG once.) and scored especially well, especially since about 1/3 of his points came from the FT line so he wasn't the "black hole" style scoring PG we've seen in recent seasons. [/quote] Post by ChicagoJ



    Are you really suggesting that Michael Williams was as good of a passer as Mark Jackson. Tell me you aren't saying that. Michael's defense ws horrible, that was my biggest problem with him - post by Unclebuck
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-15-2010 at 07:54 PM.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  26. #23
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    Dammit!!!!!

    Your right, how did I forget him????

    Actually that would change my list quite a bit as I would rank him # 4.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  27. #24
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Are you really suggesting that Michael Williams was as good of a passer as Mark Jackson. Tell me you aren't saying that. Michael's defense ws horrible, that was my biggest problem with him
    what did I do, somehow I changed a couple of posts and messed everything up.

    Sorry

  28. #25
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Rank them part 1 (the point guards)

    Its a shame for us that the edit and quote buttons are right next door. I've done that too. But not to you. Maybe I should.

    No... Micheal did not have the passing abilities of Mark Jackson in terms of making difficult passes. But he passed the ball with a high frequency. A couple of important differences... the pace was much faster with Micheal, Reggie and Chuck (and Det) on the court together. And related, Micheal had plenty of weapons to pass the ball to that could score quickly. Jackson put up slightly lesser numbers on a slower-paced team and with a DON'T-PASS-THEM-THE-BALL frontcourt of Derrick and Dale.

    But statistically, the Pacers haven't had many/ any PGs put up assists at the rate Micheal did.

    As for his defense, I think his defense was average. He got a lot of steals, of course. But he also gambled a lot and put Rik (and Tank) in foul trouble when his gamble created an open lane to the basket for the opposing PGs. He was not good at keeping his man in front of him, but at three steals per game he did something to offset it.

    But that team was just bad defensively, period. Reggie wasn't interested in defense at all. Chuck wasn't much better. Rik thought his job was to block every shot and get into quick foul trouble. Tank was showing his age. Really, Dreiling and Micheal were probably our two best defenders. If Bo Hill clobbered those guys over the head with defense, he would have brought them right down to about 28 wins. They could play 0.500 with a potent offense and token defense.

    But again, Micheals 8.x APG had a lot to do with the effeciency of that offense.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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