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Thread: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

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    Default Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/blog/bal...urn=nba,213127

    I didn't write this. I am not Kelly Dwyer. I used to think Kelly was hilarious and insightful ... his 2000 Pacers preview article back on NBATalk.com was the funniest bit of sports journalism I've ever seen (it was presented as "Presidential Debate style", with Reggie and Isiah Thomas arguing about the confusing state of the Pacers as they dismantled an NBA Finals team but still had their two best players... I digress...) But this piece, even with several valid points is not well-written.

    Sadly, I think Kelly spends too much time trying to be "Bill Simmons to the non-Boston world". There are some decent points in there but they don't really make it out. Its worth a skim, but probably not a full, indepth read.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    It just makes me rue the fact that the Indiana Pacers are a mismanaged organization that really doesn't have a clue

    Well, it is a biggie. Because it's symbolic of Bird's constant obsession with lifting his Pacers toward the middle of the pack, at all costs.
    Because Bird thinks you are. Bird thinks you're just a step away. How else do you explain these win-now moves? Dahntay Jones. No big trades. Not trading Troy Murphy(notes) at his peak, the ultimate sell-high moment. Drafting a 24-year old.


    pretty much the sediment here unfortunatley
    Last edited by 90'sNBARocked; 01-13-2010 at 03:40 PM.
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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    I actually thought this was spot-on:

    After years of inept offensive play alongside the occasional flagrant foul ("defense!," said the cable TV announcers)...
    So many people confuse flagrant fouls/ hard fouls with actual defense...
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I actually thought this was spot-on:



    So many people confuse flagrant fouls/ hard fouls with actual defense...

    Tyler?
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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    This article makes me feel like less than an inch small.

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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    OK, I guess if that article makes the writer happy, so be it. I am less than impressed.

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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I actually thought this was spot-on:



    So many people confuse flagrant fouls/ hard fouls with actual defense...
    That's not the problem. The problem is that too many people (er, one) confuse offense with defense.

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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    I didn't realize we brought him in to be a offensive threat. Seriously he wasn't even suppose to be the starter. A solid backup sure but not the starting sg/sf.

    Writers like this get confused with fixing a team. There are no quick fixes in the NBA.

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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    I think Dahntay is getting a terrible, raw deal.

    He led this team to several victories, following the mandate to make it a more defensive oriented team.

    JOB strayed from that vision, and we have lost nearly every game since.

    Dahntay Jones has not gotten worse. Our team has.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    The only part that is well written is the part that basically says that Dahntay is Dahntay, and that Bird went and got him because he supposedly defended well and could shoot 3's, which is exactly what O'B wanted.

    Well, turns out that Dahntay can't hit threes like advertised (no surprise there, otherwise Denver would have played him more than 17 minutes and would not have let him go), so now O'B won't play him because he can't space the floor, and his defense is predicated on grabbing, pushing, and getting in the heads of opponents, and because of that he gets into foul problems and hurts the performance of the team by sending the opponents to the line more than they otherwise would get there.

    Maybe we can trade him during the offseason as filler with one of our desireable expirings. It would take quite a bit to make up for him, but hopefully some teams really like Troy.

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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    That's not the problem. The problem is that too many people (er, one) confuse offense with defense.
    You may be right. That particular distinction is a bigger problem for announcers who don't understand the difference between "commiting flagrant fouls" and "playing good defense" and the posters in InternetLand that repeat the confusion but think they know what they are talking about.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    OK, I guess if that article makes the writer happy, so be it. I am less than impressed.
    Its not well written. I said that in the O.P. But there are some solid points inside the rubble.

    1. The good thing, for my reputation solely, is that Jones has fallen off. It's a bad thing, everywhere else. You'd think it'd be a horrible thing for the Pacers, but as bad as they are, it hasn't really mattered much.
    2. There's nothing that Dahntay is doing this season that is in any way unrepresentative of his career arc, per minute.

    3. He's playing exactly as he should. He's playing like Dahntay Jones, and that's enough to receive DNP-CDs for a team that is winning less than a third of its games.

    4. Because Bird thinks you are. Bird thinks you're just a step away. How else do you explain these win-now moves? Dahntay Jones. No big trades. Not trading Troy Murphy at his peak, the ultimate sell-high moment.

    5. And Dahntay Jones finally reveals himself as exactly who we thought he was. Nothing against Dahntay, because he works his tail off, but he's Dahntay Jones. For some reason, Larry Bird thought Dahntay Jones could become Dahntay Jones!
    So we could continue harping on how badly written (it is a blog post, not a "real" article, as far as I can tell, so the standard should be lower).

    But I'd rather see a discussion around those five points. Tell me why Kelly is wrong? Tell me why you are unimpressed with those five points. I get tired of watching PD turn into the "Critique the professional writers' writing skills" Digest. Let's talk about basketball/ the Pacers instead.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Its not well written. I said that in the O.P. But there are some solid points inside the rubble.





    [COLOR=black]

    So we could continue harping on how badly written (it is a blog post, not a "real" article, as far as I can tell, so the standard should be lower).

    But I'd rather see a discussion around those five points. Tell me why Kelly is wrong? Tell me why you are unimpressed with those five points. I get tired of watching PD turn into the "Critique the professional writers' writing skills" Digest. Let's talk about basketball/ the Pacers instead.
    I dont think he is that far off
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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    So Bird must have called Kelly and told him "man I thought dahntay would be better and I was really hoping he'd be the free agent pickup that vaulted us into the playoffs". Either that or Kelly is pulling assumptions out of his ***. Again.

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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    So Bird must have called Kelly and told him "man I thought dahntay would be better and I was really hoping he'd be the free agent pickup that vaulted us into the playoffs". Either that or Kelly is pulling assumptions out of his ***. Again.
    Its just his perception thats all
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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    pretty much the sediment here unfortunatley
    The sediment or the sentiment? I can see both words being appropriate.

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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    The sediment or the sentiment? I can see both words being appropriate.
    good point
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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    DJones is the odd man out because of our coach... dammit scratch that.
    DJones is the odd man out because of our offensive system

    I think he is a great pick up and I love his game. I expect him to be part of our championship run in 2-3 years

    But really, he is a tough dude, a natural leader, he is better at offense than I thought he was. He is the kinda player you need to steady the ship. I don't see why you hate the guy so much. And furthermore, his benching on our horrible team is not a knock on him at all but a reflection on the value of potential offense verses solid defense with our team.

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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    DJones is the odd man out because of our coach... dammit scratch that.
    DJones is the odd man out because of our offensive system

    I think he is a great pick up and I love his game. I expect him to be part of our championship run in 2-3 years

    But really, he is a tough dude, a natural leader, he is better at offense than I thought he was. He is the kinda player you need to steady the ship. I don't see why you hate the guy so much. And furthermore, his benching on our horrible team is not a knock on him at all but a reflection on the value of potential offense verses solid defense with our team.
    O Brien has no pattern to his substitutions. This has got to have players like Dahanty Jones secretly saying "WTF did I do or not do to deserve this"

    No wonder chemistry is at an all-time low
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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    We're asking too much of him. He's not supposed to be one of your top 3 players.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    The only part that is well written is the part that basically says that Dahntay is Dahntay, and that Bird went and got him because he supposedly defended well and could shoot 3's, which is exactly what O'B wanted.

    Well, turns out that Dahntay can't hit threes like advertised (no surprise there, otherwise Denver would have played him more than 17 minutes and would not have let him go),
    so now O'B won't play him because he can't space the floor, and his defense is predicated on grabbing, pushing, and getting in the heads of opponents, and because of that he gets into foul problems and hurts the performance of the team by sending the opponents to the line more than they otherwise would get there.

    Maybe we can trade him during the offseason as filler with one of our desireable expirings. It would take quite a bit to make up for him, but hopefully some teams really like Troy.
    I'm busy, so I didn't have the chance to read the entire article....but are you saying that Bird got him because he could shoot the 3pt shot?

    or

    Are you saying that the writer said this?

    If there was such a requirement to be able to shoot the 3pt shot....I have no idea why Bird would think this...much less sign him to a long-term contract.....only because Inferno has never shown that he could hit the 3pt shot. On average for his entire career, he has tried less then .2 attempts every game and never really hit any of them.

    I can totally see that Bird brought him in as a Defensive specialist roleplayer....and that whatever offensive skills he brings...no matter how much it doesn't fit into JO'Bs desire to "spread the floor"...is simply icing on the cake.

    I honestly think that Inferno was brought in to "help now" but to be considered a part of the core of Players that will be ready to play for the next Coach starting in the 2011-2012 season ( or hopefully earlier ). Simply put....if his Offensive game doesn't fit JO'Bs style...why sign him to a long-term contract?

    To me, I understand that Inferno's inability to not "space the floor" ( simply because he can't hit the 3pt shot ) and "tunnel vision" maybe sufficient reason for JO'B to not play him as much....but I still think ( just like many of us think about McRoberts ) that he does enough on the floor on the defensive end and has shown that he can contribute to warrant SOME minutes. 6 minutes, ZERO minutes and a DNP-CD is IMHO unacceptable given the apparent emphasis on defense.

    EDIT - I found the part about Inferno and his 3pt shooting:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelly Dwyer
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    The Pacers need defenders, he told himself. They need guys who relished the playoff edge, as Dahntay did last spring. They need guys who can occasionally hit the three-pointer, as Dahntay sometimes can, as Jim O'Brien loves, while bringing the sort of defensive intensity needed for a team that was 19th in defensive efficiency last season (assuming Larry looks at per-possessions stats).
    Inferno has never IMHO shown that he was anywhere close to be a decent 3pt shooter. I haven't really paid attention to any of his game in Denver....but his miniscule 3pt attempts over the course of his career tells me enough to know that if having a Player that can hit the 3pt shot....that you don't look to someone like Inferno to take one. If Bird really thought this and hoped/ that Inferno could develop into a Bruce Bowen type player ( like a 3pt shooting perimeter defender grows on trees ), then Bird really did make a huge mistake. But I don't get the sense that Bird looked at having a 3pt shooter a requirement to go along with the perimeter defender that he was hoping for....I'd guess that this is more of a requirement of JO'B. I agree with travmil and UB on this article......I don't agree with all of the points that Dwyer brought up....but it really comes off more as an attack on Bird at the expense of Inferno.
    Last edited by CableKC; 01-13-2010 at 06:35 PM.
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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I'm busy, so I didn't have the chance to read the entire article....but are you saying that Bird got him because he could shoot the 3pt shot?

    or

    Are you saying that the writer said this?

    If there was such a requirement to be able to shoot the 3pt shot....I have no idea why Bird would think this...much less sign him to a long-term contract.....only because Inferno has never shown that he could hit the 3pt shot. On average for his entire career, he has tried less then .2 attempts every game and never really hit any of them.

    I can totally see that Bird brought him in as a Defensive specialist roleplayer....and that whatever offensive skills he brings...no matter how much it doesn't fit into JO'Bs desire to "spread the floor"...is simply icing on the cake.

    I honestly think that Inferno was brought in to "help now" but to be considered a part of the core of Players that will be ready to play for the next Coach starting in the 2011-2012 season ( or hopefully earlier ). Simply put....if his Offensive game doesn't fit JO'Bs style...why sign him to a long-term contract?

    To me, I understand that Inferno's inability to not "space the floor" ( simply because he can't hit the 3pt shot ) and "tunnel vision" maybe sufficient reason for JO'B to not play him as much....but I still think ( just like many of us think about McRoberts ) that he does enough on the floor on the defensive end and has shown that he can contribute to warrant SOME minutes. 6 minutes, ZERO minutes and a DNP-CD is IMHO unacceptable given the apparent emphasis on defense.
    Unless he was injured , I agree 110%
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  28. #23

    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    Chicago J,
    The writers points are very near sighted and one sided. IMO, all he wants to do is justify a past criticism which doesn't look at the emergence of healthy players to the rotation which made D jones the odd man out.

    Its not like Luther Head, Rush, Watson and Dun are any better right now at the sg position. ITs a coaches choice not a player playing his way out of the rotation. Thats where his points fall out of realm of reasoning into the murky waters of stupidity.

    As far as Bird not pulling the trigger on Murphy, well who is to say that we got a good offer? Seriously, you think Bird would have held on to Murphy if a star player was offered? I didn't think so but some how this writer makes a valid point?
    Last edited by Gamble1; 01-13-2010 at 06:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    Unless he was injured , I agree 110%
    Like many games as of late.....I haven't been paying attention...he wasn't injured was he?

    My guess is not.

    I'm that this benching is more a result of JO'B trying to get a point across to Inferno that if he wants to play...he has to be less "tunnel vision" and more of a "team" Player....cuz when he does play like that...it bogs down the offense ( which is a valid reason ). If not...and JO'B is simply not playing him cuz now he has his security blankets back that can hit 3pt shots...and the reason he's not playing is cuz he can't hit the 3pt shot...then I'm going to be irritated.

    Fine, I get it....with a healthy lineup....Inferno doesn't really warrant playing 28+ mpg.....if all he is asked to be is the defensive specialiast that can attack the basket from time to time while drawing fouls.....that should translate into a rotational RolePlayer. On top of that....I get that Inferno isn't able to effectively contribute on a JO'B-RUN offense ( note that I specifically have to say JO'B Offense and not any offense )....but is his contributions on the defensive end so insignificant that he doesn't warrant some playing time?
    Last edited by CableKC; 01-13-2010 at 06:58 PM.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Dahntay Jones is exactly who we knew he was, sadly

    1. The good thing, for my reputation solely, is that Jones has fallen off. It's a bad thing, everywhere else. You'd think it'd be a horrible thing for the Pacers, but as bad as they are, it hasn't really mattered much.
    I'm not sure he makes any sense here, so he is saying no matter what Jones does it does not matter in the overall record? If he was playing great or good would the record indicate it? If it would then his statement makes no sense as Dahntay's play would matter.

    2. There's nothing that Dahntay is doing this season that is in any way unrepresentative of his career arc, per minute
    .

    I'm not sure where we are going with this either. Did he think that we thought we were going to sign a low priced free agent and he would turn into LeBron James? We are getting exactly what we paid for. I don't think anyone looked at Jones last season and said "man this guy could score 18 ppg given the chance". They looked at him and said fierce competator, hard nosed defender and an overall effort guy.

    I don't see where this is a suprise to anyone.

    3. He's playing exactly as he should. He's playing like Dahntay Jones, and that's enough to receive DNP-CDs for a team that is winning less than a third of its games.
    I strongly disagree with this statement but this is purely all opinion at this point. Mike Dunleavy has not been setting the world on fire lately and let's be honest here even if he were 100% healthy Mike is just short of a turnstyle on defense.

    This is all about coaching here and the coach's prefered style of play. Dahntay does not space the floor very well and this particular coach values that above all others. He can say he values defense all he wants (BTW what coach does not say that?) but at the end of the day from his wing players he wants them to be able to easily and fluidly step back and drop a 3.



    4. Because Bird thinks you are. Bird thinks you're just a step away. How else do you explain these win-now moves? Dahntay Jones. No big trades. Not trading Troy Murphy at his peak, the ultimate sell-high moment.
    I'm confused again, is he calling Dahntay a win now move? Or is that sarcasm, I can't tell?

    However you are not going to get me to argue against trading Troy Murphy so I think we are as one on this topic.

    5. And Dahntay Jones finally reveals himself as exactly who we thought he was. Nothing against Dahntay, because he works his tail off, but he's Dahntay Jones. For some reason, Larry Bird thought Dahntay Jones could become Dahntay Jones!
    Again this is just hyperbole for the sake of hyperbole. Dahntay Jones was paid exactly what a veteran player in the NBA who is a role player is paid. It might have been for a longer period of time than one might like but as he even said himself it is a reasonable contract that makes him easy to move down the road as part of another deal.

    Also while you don't draft for need, you really do try and sign free agents for need and last season it was concluded by everone from Bird to Boomer that we needed to improve our defense. Well D. Jones was the best perimeter defender they could find and filled a need.

    This season has not gone as planned and there are any number of reasons you can state that will make sense but Bird did have every intention of trying to make the playoffs this year. To that end he wanted to add a tough defensive minded veteran wing defender who was a good character off of the court but had a little bit of attitude on the court. As far as I can tell he found it.

    Sadly though with our coaching staff that is not the top priority.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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