Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 57

Thread: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

  1. #1
    Member Trophy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    8,556

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    http://www.nba.com/2010/news/feature...s=iref:nbahpt2

    Larry Bird, Indiana Pacers president, wasn't happy with his team's performance the other night in Minneapolis -- "Can you believe all the 3-pointers at the end?" he grumbled on his way out of Target Center -- and neither were the Pacers' coaches or players.

    In fact, the visiting locker room Friday might have set some sort of record for downcast after what, after all, was just another regular-season loss in early January.

    You'd have thought it was the wrong end of a Game 7: Almost all the players were seated at their dressing stalls, grim dead-ahead looks on their faces, unless they were staring blankly at the floor or covering up in frustration with a hand or two to the forehead. Even inactive guys like Jeff Foster and Travis Diener were sitting stone-faced in their street clothes at least 15 minutes after the final horn of their 116-109 loss to the Timberwolves.

    "Do they take every loss this hard?" I asked a Pacers insider. "Oh yeah," he said. "When they win, it's like they've won a playoff game. When they lose, it's like this."

    Rough way to go through a schedule of 82.

    Even the good news of the night, in big-picture terms, didn't lighten the mood. Forward Danny Granger, the Pacers' best player, leading scorer and lone All-Star a year ago, had returned unexpectedly from a layoff of 16 games caused by a torn plantar fascia in his right foot.

    The fifth-year pro from the University of New Mexico had suffered the injury Dec. 5 and figured to be out for another two weeks, until two practices produced little soreness. Coach Jim O'Brien stuck him in the starting lineup and got 19 points, six rebounds and four fouls in more than 31 minutes. Power forward Troy Murphy was back, too, returning from a four-game absence (sprained left ankle) to play 30 minutes.

    Based on the outcome, though, and some late unraveling, there wasn't much to celebrate. The Pacers' lack of aggressiveness was glaring, red-flagged by their rebounding and free-throw deficits; Minnesota beat them 56-36 on the boards and shot 45 free throws to Indiana's 17. Murphy caught the Wolves unaware, hitting five 3-pointers and scoring 19 points in the first half but had two points the rest of the night.

    Granger, who had been sidelined longer, looked even more tentative, preferring to launch from the arc rather than work his way in. He hit three of 10 from out there, including one that got the Pacers within 98-97 with 7:07 left. Yet instead of dialing up the pressure on Minnesota's defense, they let up as Granger missed his next four shots, two of them early in the clock. Indiana slipped behind by six, then nine.

    "We didn't think they would shoot the way they did, coming off [the injuries]," Minnesota's Ryan Gomes said. "Granger came in shooting threes like he didn't miss any games, and Murphy the same way. Those guys are capable of lighting it up -- that's the way [the Pacers] play. They take open shots, quick shots in transition. Toward the end of the game, though, I think their legs got a little heavy and they weren't able to make those shots."

    Down the hall, at his corner locker, Granger sat looking forlorn, ice bags on his knees, both feet submerged in an icy bath. "It's not all there yet," he said. "My legs weren't all there, but I guess that's expected. It will take at least a few games for me to get my old rhythm back and get back in the flow of things. A few of them, I was jumping too much or pushing too hard."

    Not attacking the basket more, playing gingerly in his first games back, is understandable (Granger scored 25 points in Saturday's loss at Oklahoma City, launching 10 more 3-pointers on a 6-of-21 night). Playing that way, even when healthy, is not. Granger has taken some heat from Pacers fans and media for a growing 3-point fascination, and the numbers support it.

    As a rookie in 2005-06, Granger attempted 93 from behind the arc in 1,765 minutes, a rate of one every 18.9 minutes. His second season, it was one every 9.7 minutes. That rate has accelerated in the seasons since to 6.8, 5.4 and now, on 166 hoists in 690 minutes, one 3-pointer for every 4.2 minutes he's on the floor. It doesn't help that his accuracy is down from a career-best 40.4 percent last season to 35.5 now.

    New York's Danilo Gallinari averages one 3-pointer every 4.6 minutes. Orlando's Rashard Lewis is one every 5.2. No wonder some folks hoped Granger was paying attention to Kevin Durant on Saturday, when the Thunder star scored 40 points while making and taking just two 3-pointers. Granger ranks 18th in the NBA in attempts from the arc and 50th in shots from the foul line.

    O'Brien just seems eager for Granger to return to last season's form, when he became the first player in NBA history to boost his scoring average by at least five points for three consecutive seasons (from 7.5 ppg to 13.9, 19.6 and 25.8). He also was the first Indiana player to top 25 per game since Billy Knight in 1976-77.

    "It's very important to have a guy of Danny's talent on the court for a number of reasons," O'Brien said. "He's a go-to-guy. He's a very good isolation guy when things break down, he spaces the court. Our whole package of plays are in play when he's able to play. We have to get him going as quickly as possible."

    After all, Indiana -- despite being tied for the conference's second-worst record (11-25) -- is just five games out of the eighth playoff spot in the forgiving East. The Pacers were 6-12 with Granger healthy, 5-11 while he was out and 0-2 after 48 hours of comeback.

    "It's on my shoulders, but it's on a lot of other guys' shoulders too," he said. "We really have to come together as a unit and make this thing work. We are struggling right now, but we're not that far out of the playoffs. I saw [while sidelined] that we need a dominant scorer. I'll definitely bring that. It's on me to watch the shots I take, watch the shots not to take. Things like that, getting teammates involved. We have to have that on our team."

    So often below the radar anyway in Indianapolis, the Pacers will stay there until they get things right -- Granger included. "The only thing that brings us into the spotlight is winning," he said. "We're not Chicago, we're not New York. Those teams, you can lose and everyone still knows who you are. It's different in Indiana, so we have to compensate by winning."

  2. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to Trophy For This Useful Post:


  3. #2

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    The cure to this painful season is a top draft pick. That's all.

    -- Steve --

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to Pacersfan46 For This Useful Post:


  5. #3
    Feed the big fella. Infinite MAN_force's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Broadripple
    Age
    28
    Posts
    2,230

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    If the pacers trade Murphy they will go .500 or better the rest of the way, my stone cold lock prediction.

    Hurts if you are into draft picks, but might sneak into the playoffs in the weak east.
    "As a bearded man, i was very disappointed in Love. I am gathering other bearded men to discuss the status of Kevin Love's beard. I am motioning that it must be shaved."

    - ilive4sports

  6. #4
    Member Speed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Brownsburg
    Posts
    8,483

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    I'm glad they aren't numb to losing yet. That's a good thing. I still think they'll go on just enough of a run to screw it all up...

  7. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Speed For This Useful Post:


  8. #5
    Custom User Titleist
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound, but of mind.
    Posts
    3,542
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    Amazed that Bird was as negative as he was about the threes. His coach dictates what happens, and when movement stops, he goes to the three, and when the players are tired late, we lose.

    Maybe he will make a change, or at least force O'Brein to change.

  9. #6
    Chairman of the Boards 90'sNBARocked's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Chicago, but Brooklyn/Naptown Raised!!
    Posts
    7,598

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    Obie has more excuses than my 2 year old son!

    I am so sick of the same fungus repetitevly coming out of Obie's mouth

    So Bird was supposedly shaking his head after the Minny game at all the 3's

    News flash Bird, your the CEO you CAN make changes!!
    Sittin on top of the world!

  10. #7
    Custom User Titleist
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Another dimension, a dimension not only of sight and sound, but of mind.
    Posts
    3,542
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    I also think that the players all understand that there is not much hope for any substantial change and that they must be waiting for the axe to fall on them and wondering who is going to be traded and when. I do give them credit for continuing to be upset, though. That does show that they at least have professional pride and a passion for the game.

  11. #8
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583
    Mood

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    "Do they take every loss this hard?" I asked a Pacers insider. "Oh yeah," he said. "When they win, it's like they've won a playoff game. When they lose, it's like this."
    Slightly touching, but also concerning. 'Never get too high or too low', and they're doing both.

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Hicks For This Useful Post:


  13. #9
    Can see thru wooden doors dal9's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,873

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    In fact, the visiting locker room Friday might have set some sort of record for downcast after what, after all, was just another regular-season loss in early January.

    You'd have thought it was the wrong end of a Game 7: Almost all the players were seated at their dressing stalls, grim dead-ahead looks on their faces, unless they were staring blankly at the floor or covering up in frustration with a hand or two to the forehead. Even inactive guys like Jeff Foster and Travis Diener were sitting stone-faced in their street clothes at least 15 minutes after the final horn of their 116-109 loss to the Timberwolves.

    "Do they take every loss this hard?" I asked a Pacers insider. "Oh yeah," he said. "When they win, it's like they've won a playoff game. When they lose, it's like this."
    keeping in mind this is from NBA.com, this seems suspiciously like propaganda

  14. #10
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,705

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Slightly touching, but also concerning. 'Never get too high or too low', and they're doing both.
    They are a young team and they don't win too often - it is to be expected that they would react that way. I think it is a positive that they get so down after they lose.

    As I have mentioned several times I didn't see the game, so I have no idea if they were open threes or not. if they weren't open than JOB doesn't want them to take a three unless the shot clock is about to expire or if it a last possession situation

  15. #11
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,705

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Obie has more excuses than my 2 year old son!

    I am so sick of the same fungus repetitevly coming out of Obie's mouth

    So Bird was supposedly shaking his head after the Minny game at all the 3's

    News flash Bird, your the CEO you CAN make changes!!
    Where is the fungus in these comments, which unless I overlooked something were the only words by JOB in the article

    "It's very important to have a guy of Danny's talent on the court for a number of reasons," O'Brien said. "He's a go-to-guy. He's a very good isolation guy when things break down, he spaces the court. Our whole package of plays are in play when he's able to play. We have to get him going as quickly as possible."

  16. #12
    Member CableKC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Jose, CA ( 1123, 6536, 5321 )
    Age
    41
    Posts
    24,336

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Amazed that Bird was as negative as he was about the threes. His coach dictates what happens, and when movement stops, he goes to the three, and when the players are tired late, we lose.

    Maybe he will make a change, or at least force O'Brein to change.
    See....this is the thing that gets me......I really don't get the sense that Bird is all too happy about this game...much less about any other game that we have played this season where we lost. This isn't the first time that we know of where Bird wasn't happy with the performance of the Team.

    If Bird sees that there is a problem.....then he himself should act upon them to enforce those changes. In this case....if he doesn't like that we were taking too many 3pt shots....either talk to the Coach...or the Team about it. If he doesn't says or do anything about it...then he's as much of a reason for the failure of this Team as everyone else is....Coach and Players.

    I'm guessing that there is a vision that he has for this Team....and if he's not seeing "his vision" translated into actions on the court....then there's either a "disconnect" with the Coach/Team that is not implementing it or he's he's not doing his job to make it clear what his vision is in the first place.

    Either way.....something rotten in the State of Denmark....and it's up to Bird to fix it.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  17. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to CableKC For This Useful Post:


  18. #13
    Member CableKC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Jose, CA ( 1123, 6536, 5321 )
    Age
    41
    Posts
    24,336

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    Quote Originally Posted by dal9 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    keeping in mind this is from NBA.com, this seems suspiciously like propaganda
    It's possible.....but based off of what some of the fans here on PD have seen during Home Games......there are some Players on the bench that do appear to take a loss seriously. It makes sense given that last season, we seem to get further then most people thought we would have gotten....so there was obvious optimism going into this season. I'm guessing that many of the Players from last season were looking at this season the same way that many of the fans here on PD were looking at it...with optimism. Given Bird's stance on "not tanking" and always going out there to compete and win......with all this losing...I wouldn't be surprised if it took a toll on them...which is good.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  19. #14
    I'm on a MAC! graphic-er's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    7,371

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Where is the fungus in these comments, which unless I overlooked something were the only words by JOB in the article

    "It's very important to have a guy of Danny's talent on the court for a number of reasons," O'Brien said. "He's a go-to-guy. He's a very good isolation guy when things break down, he spaces the court. Our whole package of plays are in play when he's able to play. We have to get him going as quickly as possible."
    They aren't exactly truthful comments from Jim, Danny has not played very well this year despite averaging 25 a game, heck during that game his shot was deflected in one of those 4 straight misses at the end of the game. Simple fact is, until he starts taking it inside, posting up on a few scores, he will be the easiest star player to guard in the NBA.

    And its just proof as to how dumb Bird is that he doesn't even address the coaches or the player about an obvious problem in shot selection.

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to graphic-er For This Useful Post:


  21. #15
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    10,042

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    Either way.....something rotten in the State of Denmark....and it's up to Bird to fix it.
    Nothing to be fixed . . . THIS YEAR!

  22. #16
    Member CableKC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Jose, CA ( 1123, 6536, 5321 )
    Age
    41
    Posts
    24,336

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Nothing to be fixed . . . THIS YEAR!
    You lost me here.......you don't think that anything will be fixed this season? Care to explain why?
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  23. #17
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,705

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    They aren't exactly truthful comments from Jim, Danny has not played very well this year despite averaging 25 a game, heck during that game his shot was deflected in one of those 4 straight misses at the end of the game. Simple fact is, until he starts taking it inside, posting up on a few scores, he will be the easiest star player to guard in the NBA.

    And its just proof as to how dumb Bird is that he doesn't even address the coaches or the player about an obvious problem in shot selection.
    How do you know he doesn't address it with the coach. he talks with Jim every day and I'm sure they talk about a lot of things.

    Actually those comments from Jim I believe were made prior to the game Friday night

  24. #18
    Member Trophy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    8,556

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    I think if we were to make a decent trade this season, we would cure our season, but we can't wait much longer.

  25. #19
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    3,436

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Simple fact is, until he starts taking it inside, posting up on a few scores, he will be the easiest star player to guard in the NBA.
    And when he starts doing that, that's when he'll start going by way of Jermaine in the injury department. I know it's what fans want to see out of all their favorite players, but taking it inside all the time is a lot harder on the body than most people are willing to give credit for.

  26. #20
    Member CableKC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Jose, CA ( 1123, 6536, 5321 )
    Age
    41
    Posts
    24,336

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    How do you know he doesn't address it with the coach. he talks with Jim every day and I'm sure they talk about a lot of things.

    Actually those comments from Jim I believe were made prior to the game Friday night
    If this was discussed......Bird is telling JO'B that he wants some change and either JO'B isn't making those changes that Bird wants....or worse....JO'B tried to implement those changes and the Players blew him off.

    Either way...we're back to Square One......something is wrong...and it's not being fixed either from the top or all the way down to the Player level.
    Last edited by CableKC; 01-11-2010 at 03:02 PM.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  27. The Following User Says Thank You to CableKC For This Useful Post:


  28. #21
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    19,906

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    If this was discussed......Bird is telling JO'B that he wants some change and either JO'B isn't making those changes that Bird wants....or worse....JO'B tried to implement those changes and the Players blew him off.

    Either way...we're back to Square One......something is wrong...and it's not being fixed either from the top or all the way down to the Player level.
    I suspect O'Brien talks out of both sides of his mouth with Bird just as much as he does the press.

    I can only hope Bird sees O'Brien's words are meaningless because his actions show his true desire for what he wants the players doing.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  29. #22
    Member CableKC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    San Jose, CA ( 1123, 6536, 5321 )
    Age
    41
    Posts
    24,336

    Sports Logo

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I suspect O'Brien talks out of both sides of his mouth with Bird just as much as he does the press.

    I can only hope Bird sees O'Brien's words are meaningless because his actions show his true desire for what he wants the players doing.
    To play devil's advocate....or I guess do my best impression of UB ....how do know that JO'B hasn't followed what Bird has told him in the past and the problem isn't with the players?

    I'm guessing that it's a combination of both Players ( where they have turned off JO'B at this point ) and JO'B ( truly discouraging the volume of 3pt shooting by doing little to nothing and not having the cajones to bench a Player for not following what the Coach says ).
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  30. The Following User Says Thank You to CableKC For This Useful Post:


  31. #23
    Chairman of the Boards 90'sNBARocked's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Chicago, but Brooklyn/Naptown Raised!!
    Posts
    7,598

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Where is the fungus in these comments, which unless I overlooked something were the only words by JOB in the article

    "It's very important to have a guy of Danny's talent on the court for a number of reasons," O'Brien said. "He's a go-to-guy. He's a very good isolation guy when things break down, he spaces the court. Our whole package of plays are in play when he's able to play. We have to get him going as quickly as possible."
    What I was saying is Obie constantly plays the sympathy card, or says one thing in the media then does the opposite in return
    Sittin on top of the world!

  32. #24
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    19,906

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    To play devil's advocate....or I guess do my best impression of UB ....how do know that JO'B hasn't followed what Bird has told him in the past and the problem isn't with the players?
    Easy- Just look at the lineups and rotations O'Brien uses when he has all or a majority of the team available to him.

    He sits defensive players and plays shooters. And for many minutes. And in crunch time.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  33. The Following User Says Thank You to Bball For This Useful Post:


  34. #25
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    3,436

    Default Re: Healthy Granger hopes to cure Pacers' painful season

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Easy- Just look at the lineups and rotations O'Brien uses when he has all or a majority of the team available to him.

    He sits defensive players and plays shooters. And for many minutes. And in crunch time.
    Mainly because NBA coaches don't want to play scrubs in crunchtime, and that's what JOB's defensive players are.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-27-2009, 12:27 PM
  2. SI Pacers Preview
    By MillerTime18 in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 10-17-2008, 08:07 PM
  3. Hollinger's "All Break Out" and "All-Decline" Teams
    By JayRedd in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 11-15-2007, 02:17 PM
  4. Euro Dropoffs and homeland risers...
    By jcouts in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 06-11-2005, 05:53 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •