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Thread: Feed the big fella (Mike Wells) - mentions Seth

  1. #26
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Feed the big fella (Mike Wells) - mentions Seth

    Quote Originally Posted by pacergod2 View Post
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    I can't wait for those double teams to come! Anthem, who was it that said... "Exactly how many times have you seen Hibbert defeat a double team?". I hope we will start to find out.
    Dunno, but I was thinking the same thing.

    YES! DOUBLE-TEAM HIBBERT! If the dude can consistently draw a double-team that's going to help us a TON. Hansbro's midrange shooting, Granger and Rush on the wings, Price at PG.... we'd be a LOT more efficient on offense if Hibbert can continue to improve and start drawing more double teams.

    Look, the kid's improved a ton to get to this point. I'm not saying he's a finished product, but what exactly makes anybody think he'll stop being able to improve?
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  3. #27
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Feed the big fella (Mike Wells) - mentions Seth

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I think we are getting a little too excited. Even if we assume what some of you are saying is correct, teams will adjust, they will start double teaming, digging down, faking double teams, fronting him more. There is a long way to go before we can make some of these pronouncements
    I'm not pronouncing anything really. However with what you are saying about teams having to adjust to Roy I think that is a win for the Pacers.

    If Roy improves to be able to deal with double teams and we actually could get someone to make them pay for this they Roy will be invaluable.


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    Default Re: Feed the big fella (Mike Wells) - mentions Seth

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Not to be argumentative but if Dwight can't rise up and get a shot who in this league (if not world) can?

    What I'm getting at is that Dwight is exactly the player you are describing. He is stong and tall and can jump higher than almost anyone.
    Dwight wasn't trying to defend the hook by getting into the air after it. At least, I didn't see him leave the ground. Wingspan-to-wingspan I think he doesn't have an advantage over Roy just standing still.

    It seems to me that when Roy's hook isn't falling it is more due to the way defenders force him to position his body and where he ends up, not that they somehow leap up and block it. They make him flatten it so they can then either block it or simply make it miss. There are players who aren't normally great shot blockers that frustrate the daylights out of Roy because of this, while others whom you would expect to be blocking shots all day long don't get after it. In both games against the Magic, Dwight has seemed to me to be the latter.
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  6. #29
    Member IndyProdigy's Avatar
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    Default Re: Feed the big fella (Mike Wells) - mentions Seth

    I'll pronounce this: if not for roy hibbert, this team wouldnt have much going for them. (with hans and granger out)
    "To give anything less than your best, is to sacrifice the gift." - Steve Prefontaine

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    Default Re: Feed the big fella (Mike Wells) - mentions Seth

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I think we are getting a little too excited. Even if we assume what some of you are saying is correct, teams will adjust, they will start double teaming, digging down, faking double teams, fronting him more. There is a long way to go before we can make some of these pronouncements
    Since we don't have any other players that command a double-team, please explain how this is a bad thing?

    PLEASE double-team Roy.
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  8. #31
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Feed the big fella (Mike Wells) - mentions Seth

    The game was also very vocal. Another classic moment was when the ref got knocked over as Watson was forced out of bounds. Watson was standing around the group that was all hanging over the ref seeing if he's all right, and gamer that he is Watson is just pleading his case of "he blew the whistle though, he called the foul" over and over. Good stuff.

    They still gave the ball to Orlando though.

  9. #32
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    Default Re: Feed the big fella (Mike Wells) - mentions Seth

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Since we don't have any other players that command a double-team, please explain how this is a bad thing?

    PLEASE double-team Roy.
    No kidding. Did you see the GnGo with Head for the layup? Roy has been making 5 out of 6 great passes I'd estimate. Yes he's still dumping a few per game that end up as cheap TOs, but he's making just as many really good passes.

    It's not just a case of catch-double-kick like any big can kinda do, I mean threading needles, hitting the hands, bouncing as needed. He has a very strong, fundamental passing game. He got doubled like crazy in summer ball and it only made things worse for teams.

    Roy doesn't have to get the score or assist on every play to be critical, he is the starting point to get the offense working. The anchor as I keep saying. You might high post him, let him kick back to you and then drive over him as the pick in the high post and when you draw weakside help in the lane you kick it to Dun for the 3 (didn't we just see that last night?)

    There's no assist on a play like that, but being able to work off him and start the defensive adjustments toward him opens up the next stage of a play. Or they play off and he gets some points.


    Roy will definitely have plenty of bad nights to come, but it's just dumb to not use a 7'2" guy with a reliable hook and a growing jumper game.

    IMO this not only helped in the technical strategy of things, but also gave the team an EMOTIONAL lift of confidence because they knew they had a go-to play/guy at the other end. The vision of a plan gives guys HOPE. "Get a stop here and we can feed Roy and get that 2 points back for the tie". You can't undervalue that.

    It was one of the things a guy like Reggie brought. Not that he'll make the shot for sure, but that you knew that you could count on him to get something up that had a good shot of going in, or would create space for something else easy. Frankly this was Rik too. See the 8 in 8.9 game. Having Rik to grind out points kept that team in the game and prevented a blow out.

  10. #33
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    Default Re: Feed the big fella (Mike Wells) - mentions Seth

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Roy's getting better and smarter. The guys who CAN knock him off his spot are going to have more trouble doing it. Kendrick Perkins, Brendan Heywoode, those types.

    Hopefully Roy is understanding, he really can't be stopped, but the same move in the same situation won't work against all players. I see him getting this in a big way.

    Example, last night Howard had foul trouble in the second half, on one move Roy took two hard dribbles base line almost right at Howard and put in a little half hook on the other side of the rim.

    Not a move against a power player in the first quarter, but one against him with 4 fouls in the second half. Smart!

    Two things he'll start to have to improve on that he hasn't really seen much of yet.

    -Double team-both pre and post dribble

    -Fronting

    Orlando tried both and were sucessful at times. All of this working is predicated on three things really.

    -An offense designed to make it a consistent point to get him the ball in the low post.

    -Roy working hard, but smart to get position.

    -his teammates working hard and smart to get him the ball or get open if he's double teamed.

    The next step in year 3 and 4 is consistency.
    The dribble baseline to reverse was incredible. Very impressive move period.

    Feeding the post, especially with early doubles, is tricky. You'll notice that they have Rush and Jones do this especially and part of it is do to how Rush especially spaces. He knows what the safe post feed is and when it's not there and how to get it usually.

    Last night one feed got tipped out but only because time ran down and Rush couldn't keep waiting on Roy to get perfectly clear, so he tried to thread the baseline side the best he could. The key is that I watched he and whoever was up top working to feed Roy, not just forcing it. They saw what was happening and tried to deal with it.

    So from that I think you do see them get better. The bigger issue is cutting and spacing once Roy goes to work. Some of the time they got lost watching instead of playing, and that took away the help Roy needed.


    DALE
    BTW, um, you did have a PF play last night that got 6 rebounds in 13 minutes. I mean I could go for 12-13 per 30, but that's me. Still waiting on Josh to have the game so bad he shouldn't play anymore, the game clearly worse (let alone "not better than") what Tyler is doing.

    pssst - Josh is now 2nd on the team in eFG% with a .541, trailing only Murphy. Yes his FGAs is low enough that this can still swing quickly, I'm just saying it's not a knock on him like it was according to people when he was 4 of 12 or whatever.

    He's also 3rd on the team in blocks per minute (Roy, Solo) and 4th in Oreb per minute (Roy, Tyler, Jeff)
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 01-06-2010 at 04:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Feed the big fella (Mike Wells) - mentions Seth

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    IMO this not only helped in the technical strategy of things, but also gave the team an EMOTIONAL lift of confidence because they knew they had a go-to play/guy at the other end. The vision of a plan gives guys HOPE. "Get a stop here and we can feed Roy and get that 2 points back for the tie". You can't undervalue that.
    This is important enough that I wanted to do more than just thank it. I think sometimes many people forget these guys are human. The emotional lift matters quite a bit.
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  12. #35
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Feed the big fella (Mike Wells) - mentions Seth

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    IMO this not only helped in the technical strategy of things, but also gave the team an EMOTIONAL lift of confidence because they knew they had a go-to play/guy at the other end. The vision of a plan gives guys HOPE. "Get a stop here and we can feed Roy and get that 2 points back for the tie". You can't undervalue that.
    There are a lot of things like that going on that stats don't capture. And a lot of the stats guys seem to not like Hibbert.

    Ultimately, the human element reins supreme in this game, and there's mystery to the human element that pure math can't capture.
    .

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    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Feed the big fella (Mike Wells) - mentions Seth

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Not to be argumentative but if Dwight can't rise up and get a shot who in this league (if not world) can?

    What I'm getting at is that Dwight is exactly the player you are describing. He is stong and tall and can jump higher than almost anyone.
    EXACTAMUNDO!!

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    Not many guys ( IF ANY) can dunk a ball while putting a sticker at the very top of the backboard ..lol


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    Last edited by Kemo; 01-06-2010 at 05:01 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    Plumlee reminds me of a young Dale Davis. Good rebounding and he contests shots well on defense and his offensive game is very raw just like DD's was coming out of college.
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    Default Re: Feed the big fella (Mike Wells) - mentions Seth

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuq_e_Zi91 View Post
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    David Lee.

    haha thanks, I just sprayed dew on my monitor..
    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    Plumlee reminds me of a young Dale Davis. Good rebounding and he contests shots well on defense and his offensive game is very raw just like DD's was coming out of college.
    "If my answers frighten you, then you should cease asking scary questions."

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    Default Re: Feed the big fella (Mike Wells) - mentions Seth

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Translated: When the guys out come back, Roy suddenly doesn't become a great option and we'll stop going to him.

    LOL...always trying to find the bad side of any quote. Got to love it!

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    Default Re: Feed the big fella (Mike Wells) - mentions Seth

    I thought it was very interesting that in the 2nd half Howard was working much harder at keeping Roy from getting the ball rather than blocking other people's shots and that when Roy got the ball down low the Magic were double teaming him every time. As he gets more consistant in his play this will help the Pacers. I have been really impressed with his improvement.

    Rush seems to be playing better now, Perhaps he is a better player off the bench.

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    Default Re: Feed the big fella (Mike Wells) - mentions Seth

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    However with what you are saying about teams having to adjust to Roy I think that is a win for the Pacers.
    Agreed 101%.

    As soon as Team A has a player that Team B has to make/change their game plan for, Team B is suddenly forced to do things that they're not completely familiar with. Advantage Team A.

    It's a little ray of sunshine. I don't think it goes with JOB's concept of offense though. So, all of a sudden, JOB is forced to do things that he's not completely familiar with.

    Damn those double edge swords.

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    Default Re: Feed the big fella (Mike Wells) - mentions Seth

    Quote Originally Posted by JBones19 View Post
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    I love Hibbert but I think the one thing he needs to learn how to do is go up strong. I don't know how many times I've seen him try to go up and under or attempt a finesse lay-up around a guy in his way. He needs to get that nasty streak down low and try to dunk on guys when he's under the basket. If nothing else he'll get to the line more that way and I don't mind that.
    QFT. I think he'll eventually get there. IMHO, he's right at that mental "edge" where he finds out "Man, they can't stop me". Yao was kinda soft when he first came into league, and eventually starting taking the ball strong in the paint. There's only so many times that you'll block a person's shot, before he's gets frustrated and wants to exact his revenge in a different manner.

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    Default Re: Feed the big fella (Mike Wells) - mentions Seth

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Dunno, but I was thinking the same thing.

    YES! DOUBLE-TEAM HIBBERT! If the dude can consistently draw a double-team that's going to help us a TON. Hansbro's midrange shooting, Granger and Rush on the wings, Price at PG.... we'd be a LOT more efficient on offense if Hibbert can continue to improve and start drawing more double teams.

    Look, the kid's improved a ton to get to this point. I'm not saying he's a finished product, but what exactly makes anybody think he'll stop being able to improve?
    I was also thinking the same thing. I always thought he could pass for center (he had some nifty passes last season), so I'm glad that everyone is finally taking note. IMHO, feeding Roy and letting him work in the paint and/or pass out of double teams is a MUCH better offense than "taking the 1st shot available regardless of your bigs' rebounding position".

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    Default Re: Feed the big fella (Mike Wells) - mentions Seth

    Quote Originally Posted by BobbyMac View Post
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    Rush seems to be playing better now, Perhaps he is a better player off the bench.
    I think it's been pointed out more than once that Rush and Hibbert seem to play better in a more structured offensive system. When we have Roy anchoring the post and Watson/Price playing a more traditional PG role than TJ typically does we get a situation where BRush is more likely to thrive.

    There might be something clicking in his head on the offensive side now but I think it's just as likely that he simply has better chemistry with the people he is sharing the floor with right now.
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