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Thread: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

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    Default Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    http://www.hoopsworld.com/chat.asp?s..._TOPICS_ID=685


    Eric P in Naptown:
    Joel, Do you see Roy Hibbert becoming an above average Center at some point in his career? Wouldn't he do much better in a half court system? Obie is killing him!

    Joel Brigham:
    Actually yeah, I do see him being a great center is a slowdown system. He's got a decent set of offensive skills, but he's a great shot blocker and could be a much better rebounder if he didn't have to play in transition so much. I was just talking to another writer at the Bulls/Pacers game the other night about how I really didn't think Hibbert would amount to much when he first came out, but he's shown a lot this season to change my mind. Now, Hasheem Thabeet is hopeless in my opinion, and I when I watch him versus Hibbert I see two totally different guys. Hibbert's going to be absolutely fine. I'm liking him more and more every time I watch him.
    Gee Mr Obrien, maybe you dont have it right.

    Just maybe you CAN win with a low post game as a focal point.
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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    I think there may be hope. Obie talked the other day about trying to get Roy 17-18 shots. I can't remember which game now, but it was in his pregame interview. Then last night he acknowledge that Roy was scoring well down there, but they had to try to catch up so they had to go up tempo and could go to him down there as much.

    Look, Roy will get down there and work, you can see a pep in his step when he gets to post up. It's not like he's not willing and it's not like he's not overall effective.

    I think what you have to live with is the 2 or 3 or 4 really horrible plays he gives you a game and let him do the positive things he brings. Another words put him in a position to suceed

    I can see Roy starting to build some momentum/confidence again. It's kinda nice, but I think Obie may be starting to use him right, too.

    Examples of the horrible the last two nights

    -Roy took the ball out of bounds after a made basket and handed it to the other team.
    -Roy shoots an airball in the low post, actually a couple of times.

    Huge positives
    -someone like Noah struggled mightily against him. Noah is a very good low post defender too. He basically had to foul him to stop him.

    So Roy's failures are a coaches nightmare, just bonehead plays, but if you pull him you miss out on some really good stuff.

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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    So Roy's failures are a coaches nightmare, just bonehead plays, but if you pull him you miss out on some really good stuff.
    I agree with this last part, but would like to point out that those bad things will likely disappear with time and the stuff that is already good now has the potential to get better.

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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    I agree with this last part, but would like to point out that those bad things will likely disappear with time and the stuff that is already good now has the potential to get better.
    I agree, the bonehead things will go away. It's the defensive struggles that really concern me. You just can keep getting beat by Kendrick Perkins and giving up career nights to Andrew Bogut.

    He's basically rendered useless too, if Obie doesn't get him in a position to suceed, which means 15 low post shot attempts on nights he's got it going. If you aren't going to do that, then just don't play him.

    It'd be like putting Dale Davis in a game and saying, we'd like for you to shoot 3's and not rebound or play defense, please. What's the point.

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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    I'd still like to see him be able to get the ball and immediate make a move, instead of holding the ball and waiting for everyone to clear out. You gotta be able to operate in traffice if you are going to be a dominate low post threat.

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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    [QUOTE=Speed;936843]I think there may be hope. Obie talked the other day about trying to get Roy 17-18 shots. I can't remember which game now, but it was in his pregame interview. Then last night he acknowledge that Roy was scoring well down there, but they had to try to catch up so they had to go up tempo and could go to him down there as much.


    True that, but Obie also said "Roy was doing some good things last night but we can't win playing a slow , feed the ball down low post game"

    or something to that effect
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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    [quote=90'sNBARocked;936872]
    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    I think there may be hope. Obie talked the other day about trying to get Roy 17-18 shots. I can't remember which game now, but it was in his pregame interview. Then last night he acknowledge that Roy was scoring well down there, but they had to try to catch up so they had to go up tempo and could go to him down there as much.


    True that, but Obie also said "Roy was doing some good things last night but we can't win playing a slow , feed the ball down low post game"

    or something to that effect

    I read it too, online it sounded like he was saying, in general, we can't win that way, so I originally thought the same thing. But the full quote, in print, made it sound more like, in this game we couldn't play that way in the 4th quarter because they were so far behind.

    I get really frustrated sometimes with the quality of editing on articles anymore, in general. I blame the Internet machines and Al Gore for inventing them.

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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    Y ou have to understand that Bogut and Perkins are probably both better than you give them credit for and they are both BIG BODY centers who Hibbert will struggle with at this point in his career. He needs more work against those big bodied players in game, because he is not getting that in practice. I think we need to play Hibbert more because we will dictate to the other teams our offensive possessions and make them guard Hibbert. Double teams, or giving up points to the big man? It forces the action for the other team defensively. It will open up more spacing for our other players who could all benefit from it. Especially opening up passing lanes for Dun and spacing for Rush to fill cutting, and Ford on dribble penetration. Hibbert needs to play no matter what the match-up IMO. If we don't get him that ball on offense, we can't take advantage of the other team where we have an advantage. If Stoudemire scores 26, hopefully Hibbert can offset that with 20 points of his own by taking advantage of Stoudemire's defense on the other end. We need to prioritize the development of Hibbert.

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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    Exactly how many times have you seen Hibbert defeat a double team?

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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    Exactly how many times have you seen Hibbert defeat a double team?
    Considering Roy's passing skills, isn't drawing a double team the entire point? This implies someone is open and can be passed to. Why should he ever have to beat the double team?
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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    Considering Roy's passing skills, isn't drawing a double team the entire point? This implies someone is open and can be passed to. Why should he ever have to beat the double team?
    Defeating the double team is not limited to shooting or scoring over it. It includes passing out of it for scores or re-sets.

    While I agree that Roy is capable of making some very nice passes, he is not a good passer yet. He's still far too indecisive.

    More to the point, show me the track record that shows he's going to command a double team against most teams.

    What's being proposed by some here is that we basically center an offense around a second year guy who has managed to score 20 points or more 3 times in his 101 career games.

    He is a guy who is not physically strong and can be bullied off the block by stronger players. He is neither quick nor decisive at this point in time, and struggles against smaller, quicker players, as well. He's not adept at drawing fouls getting to the line and putting the other team in foul trouble.

    He plays on a team that has demonstrated that they cannot hit shots from the outside, and lacks any real quality passers capable of feeding the post.

    I think Roy is progressing nicely, and I think he will learn these things over time.

    However, I think if you try to pound the ball down to him as the primary option, then this already easy-to-guard team even easier to guard. The defenses will constrict even further, and he will basically be playing with opposing guards and wings in his lap for the entire game.

    Essentially, you're putting him in a position to fail to no good end.

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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    While I agree that Roy is capable of making some very nice passes, he is not a good passer yet. He's still far too indecisive.


    I think when JOB says "slow" in this case, he isn't talking about half-court vs. transition, he is talking about the fact that Roy takes forever to decide what to do if his expected action is cut off.
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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Obie talked the other day about trying to get Roy 17-18 shots.
    I gotta say, given the wide gulf between things Obie says and things Obie does this season this scares the crap out of me. Makes me wonder if Hibbert is going to get like 5-10 shots now.
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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    When have we ever seen him be the focus of our offense? If he doesn't command a double team, we will find this out. We will also know if he can handle passing out of that double team as well. When have we seen our offense create more than perimeter passing and ineffective penetration from the top of the key?

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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    I think the production of our team at this point forces us to use Hibbert, whether he is ready or not. Count... great post. I just disagree that he will be put in a position to fail... I think you're right with everything you said... I just think he will be able to grow to succeed. Maybe I am just optimistic, however. I don't think we have much else to go on at this point. We need to start moving forward.

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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    What's being proposed by some here is that we basically center an offense around a second year guy who has managed to score 20 points or more 3 times in his 101 career games.
    The alternative is?

    And how has that worked out for us?

    BTW I am not advocating just giving the ball to Roy, I am however advocating a more methodical aproach and if that means we go to 60% half court sets that end up in the post (Roy or whoever) then I'm fine with it.


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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    Exactly how many times have you seen Hibbert defeat a double team?
    Multiple. He did it last night against the Grizzlies and Brandon Rush wound up with a wide open three.

    He gets doubled just about every game, but it looks like the double is a result of teams trying to capitalize on his slow decision-making (i.e. send someone in to dig the ball out since he'll be holding for a few seconds) rather than him being unstoppable.

    Roy, right now, is a legit low post threat. He's scored 20 3 times ONLY because of our offense; it's nearly impossible to hit that number when you're getting 10 or fewer touches a night. Most nights he gets 5 or less. We have plenty of capable passers to get the ball into the post. Tyler gets the ball into the post regularly. The big difference between Tyler and Roy is that Tyler is assertive about receiving the ball.

    Roy needs to learn how to establish position early and get his hands up. Brooke Lopez does exactly what Roy should do, which is pick a pre-determined spot in the low post and beat your defender to that spot in transition. I think it'd be great if Roy watched a lot of Lopez footage so he can pick it up. Until then, it'd be nice for O'Brien to assure that Roy gets 17-18 touches by calling plays.

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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    Exactly how many times have you seen Hibbert defeat a double team?

    As one of the worst shooting teams in the league it becomes very difficult to defeat the
    double team despite a good pass.
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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    As one of the worst shooting teams in the league it becomes very difficult to defeat the
    double team despite a good pass.
    Agreed.

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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by owl View Post
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    As one of the worst shooting teams in the league it becomes very difficult to defeat the
    double team despite a good pass.
    Are we such a bad shooting team for taking unnecessary shots and getting terrible, defended looks, because of the way our offense runs as of now? Might we be better shooters with better looks that are in the flow of an offense? I say tear the MF down and see what we can do adjusting our offense to our younger players, which is NOT what is (or has been) happening. Our offense had been adpated to the veteran players we were giving more minutes to. It goes for a lot more than Roy. Rush needs to work screens and be in position to catch a decent pass, instead of ball domination at the top. AJ Price needs to be able to show what leadership skills he has as a young PG. McRoberts needs to be able to match up athletically with the other athletic big men in this league and see what he can do by playing through some mistakes. I guess I am ranting a bit, but the mentality has got to change now that we are absolutely forced to go in a new direction, IMO. It is time and I think it starts with an offense centered around your offensively capable young big man. Maybe the players like Price and McRoberts will bring a spark to the team. We may not win, but they will be more likely to give the desired effort. I want to see what they will give. I want to see what an offense that is centered around Hibbert can do. We are capable of passing the ball well. Why not apply it in a different form to see if it is more effective than what we are seeing? You win games in this league in the half court. Lets see what we've got. I want to make sure Hibbert can or cannot be our foundation in the post.

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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Obie talked the other day about trying to get Roy 17-18 shots.
    Per game or the rest of the season ??

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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    Roy Hibbert has all the potential to be a great (not good) center. The Hibbert that I see is the one who battles for position and calls for the ball on every possession. The Hibbert that I see is one who claps enthusiastically when he makes a good pass for the score or scores himself. The Hibbert that I see is the one who hustles and battles for the offensive board. Man, I LOVE when Hibbert gets excited downlow on good plays, because he makes he get excited about the team's future. Honest to god truth, he's one of the reasons while I watch the Pacers. I appreciate when the big man puts in work. In a REAL halfcourt game of basketball, Hibbert is the real deal. JOB needs to go ahead and design plays for Hibbert to get the ball. Most championships are won with a good inside/outside game, and Hibbert has all the skills to be the center of future. I can't think of the last team that won only jumpshots.

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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    Per game or the rest of the season ??
    Rest of his career.
    "I keep wondering the same thing. Last week they had the 4th worst record in the league, had an 11.9 percent chance of winning the lottery and were in line to land a franchise type player like Derrick Favors or DeMarcus Cousins. This week? They have a 1.7 percent chance of winning the lottery, have the 8th worst record and are in line to draft Cole Aldrich or Greg Monroe. Way to go Jim O'Brien. Rest Danny Granger the rest of the season (if it isn't too late) and give Josh McRoberts lots of minutes. That ought to do it." - Chad Ford on winning meaningless games

    Way to go Jim, you may have just put our franchise back another 4+ years.

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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    I have to agree that Hibby will be fine. It usually takes a good five years to develop a center and Roy has improved drastically from last year to this year. He needs to continue to strengthen his body and work on that cardio. If he can continue to put the effort in the gym and in the weight room, I think he will be ok.

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    Default Re: Hoopsworld on Hibbert

    I disagree with the OP about Thabeet. I've been positively impressed with Thabeet, considering the expectations I had for him after his last season in college. His shot blocking is quite impressive, how athletic and quick he is at coming over from the weakside and altering a shot at the final moment.

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