Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 26 to 48 of 48

Thread: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

  1. #26
    Member
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Evansville, IN
    Posts
    1,078

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    True, but JOB's offense is designed around player movement more so than fixed spacing for penetration. It doesn't help when you have your biggest guy hovering around a particular spot on the floor. The parts need to move in unison. There are numerous times in the course of a game when the ball movement suddenly haults b/c a moving player comes around the key and is blocked by Murphy camping out.

    This is why TJ struggles as well. He too likes to hover around the key in a futile attempt to take his man off the dribble.

  2. #27
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,991

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    Quote Originally Posted by purdue101 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    True, but JOB's offense is designed around player movement more so than fixed spacing for penetration. It doesn't help when you have your biggest guy hovering around a particular spot on the floor. The parts need to move in unison. There are numerous times in the course of a game when the ball movement suddenly haults b/c a moving player comes around the key and is blocked by Murphy camping out.

    This is why TJ struggles as well. He too likes to hover around the key in a futile attempt to take his man off the dribble.
    Most of his three point shot attempts come off of delayed fastbreaks or high pick and rolls. You (not you specifically) can't have it bith ways, I heard for years that Foster boggs down the offense because he can't shoot so no one guards him, well Troy by any measure is a good shooter and he is guarded.

  3. #28
    Member BornReady's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    MD
    Posts
    2,767

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I for some strange reason still do not think that the +/- is a fair assessment of a player. It really dismisses any other kind of intangible play.
    i tend to agree, but if its an ongoing trend like it is, it probably says otherwise :/

  4. #29

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I for some strange reason still do not think that the +/- is a fair assessment of a player. It really dismisses any other kind of intangible play.
    It's a statistic, just like any other statistic. That's one of the problems with JOB. He's sytematic, and all about the numbers. Nothing logical, nothing in the flow of the game..no recognition of what the team needs.

    I think it's the only statistic that can even begin to account for intangibles. But I'm not sure it's all that great for an individual game.
    So TJ's one game of -18 doesn't mean ALL that much in the grand scheme of things.

    But TJ's -700 by the end of the season...well..that just might mean something.

  5. The Following User Says Thank You to Sookie For This Useful Post:


  6. #30
    A Magical Place Hoop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Greenwood
    Posts
    4,608
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I for some strange reason still do not think that the +/- is a fair assessment of a player. It really dismisses any other kind of intangible play.
    I agree but, our coach thanks it's useful. He has specifically used this stat to explain why he was starting Foster.

    It's either a useful stat or it's not, he can't have it both ways. He says in one breathe he goes by this stat, yet he plays heavy minutes to the 2 worse +/- guys we have.

    +/-
    T. Ford -180
    T. Murphy -227

    And the numbers grow every game.
    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

  7. #31

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    I tend to think it has to do more with his contract than anything. Both him and Dun always will be looked at as having two of the worst contracts in the league for what they produce on the court. Those two contracts hender the Pacers from having financial flexibility. I tend to think that the past couple of seasons the reason that the team did not make the playoffs was the lack of defense. Murphy is slow footed and tends to get a lot of his rebounds uncontested which increase his numbers. You couple that with his hugeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee contract people tend to have harsh feelings.

  8. #32
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    45
    Posts
    17,000

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I for some strange reason still do not think that the +/- is a fair assessment of a player. It really dismisses any other kind of intangible play.
    You're right. Individual +/- is about as useful as adding the temperature to the day of the month and dividing by miles per gallon.

    Sure, its a stat/ number. Just a worthless one.

    Five-man +/- is very, very useful, however. Its a great assessment of a LINEUP, which consists of ... players.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  9. #33
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,991

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    You're right. Individual +/- is about as useful as adding the temperature to the day of the month and dividing by miles per gallon.

    Sure, its a stat/ number. Just a worthless one.

    Five-man +/- is very, very useful, however. Its a great assessment of a LINEUP, which consists of ... players.
    Yeah, but even the 5-man +/- doesn't tell the whole story. For example lately the Pacers starters have a much worse +/- than the bench players, but two huge factors. The starters generally play against the other team's starters, so yes the fact that they aren't doing well maks some sense. Also the flow of the game isn't factered in to the stat. For example if the starters fall down by a score 34 - 15 by th end of the first quarter it only makes sense that the second quarter is going to be a lot different the chances of another 34-15 against quarter are nil, in fact chances are the score will tighten up no matter if the starters are in the game or the reserves, just the law of averages and opponent letting up.

    Plus a lot of times if the game is decided before the fourth quarter starts, the bench players will play the fourth and invariably the score tightens UP AND THE BENCH PLAYERS +/- will be much better than the starters

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Unclebuck For This Useful Post:


  11. #34
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Danberry
    Age
    55
    Posts
    12,193

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    Like any other statistic, +/- is only useful IN CONTEXT. ANY statistic taken out of context can be made to mean whatever you want it to mean.
    BillS

    "Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
    - Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

  12. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to BillS For This Useful Post:


  13. #35
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Downtown baby
    Posts
    12,638

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    Quote Originally Posted by NuffSaid View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    But we lost and things truly began to go down hill in a hurry once he went out with a sprained ankle. I'm not defending Troy, just saying the team losing can't be blamed on him alone.
    Err, the 19 point hole?

    Yes, apart from that it was all good till he went out.


    His defense is just amazingly bad at times. Don't watch the ball, just watch him for a few trips. Or rewind plays on the DVR. It's rough.


    Individual +/- over the long haul is easily as valuable as the 5 man. The problem with 5 man stats is the amount of measure minutes for any 1 group is tiny. Contrast that with the season long individual +/- and that guy has eventually played with every other guy on the court.

    It's twice as damning when one starter is really high and the other is really low. Somehow one guy just always gets stuck playing with the duds for 5 minutes night after night?

    People have this misconception that you only have 10-15 core 5 man groups, but that's not true. I did my own 5 man +/- a few years ago and it was ridiculously complex. I couldn't believe that every single game you saw 2-3 combos you'd never seen before, but I had to keep adding them.


    If you have a poor individual +/- then you are definitely going to be part of some of the worst 5 man groups. That's the math on it. So then you look at those other 5 man groups that are "dragging him down" and wonder "why aren't those other 4 below him on the individual list".

    +/- doesn't say what, but it does notice that something is wrong, and it's not just "bad luck with game time or slop time". In a given game, sure. You can live off other guys.

    But then isn't that true for individual stats? Do you throw out garbage time rebounds or assists? Hell, we don't even throw out "rotate the pass, chuck a 3" assists as if they are the same as a drive to double team, dump for dunk pass from Stockton.


    Have you really looked at the +/- for the season and thought "no way, that guy's the best"? Typically when a guy is too high or too low FOR THE MOMENT it's because he's trending up or down.

    Saras was always up on the +/- his first year, but that was due to his first month when it was way way up. So were his other stats though, so the +/- was legit to say "this dude is tearing it up". He was 50/40/90 shooting his first month.

    Then he started to suck. His total +/- stayed in the positive, a tribute to how much of an early impact he had. But his total past that first month was way in the red, indicating that the failure people were seeing was actually there.

    So the Saras nuts would say "he's got a good +/-", ignoring the giant -50 or whatever over the last month.


    BTW, Granger's +/- early in his career wasn't so hot and as we saw him improving so did his +/- relative to the rest of the team.


    Right now you see Troy and Ford way at the bottom and guys like Head and Watson looking pretty good, especially in the per minute rating. Does anyone really want to tell me that the +/- is wrong when nearly ever post-game thread tends to agree with it?

    Even DJones had a rough stretch after a good early start, and at times has had less focused defense as things have gone south.

  14. #36
    Protect the Promise. HOOPFANATIC's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Anderson
    Age
    50
    Posts
    258

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    Quote Originally Posted by WetBob View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Murphy looks much better on paper than he does on the court. He gets his numbers, but opposing team bigs routinely have career nights against the Pacers. Murphy's defense is a primary reason.
    It's funny, but when we made the trade a Golden State fan came on here and said the same thing.
    Protect the Promise!!!!

  15. #37
    Member RCF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Akron Ohio
    Age
    30
    Posts
    5

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    he's a fantasy stud.....

  16. #38

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Like any other statistic, +/- is only useful IN CONTEXT.
    There are positives and negatives about the +/- concept.

  17. #39
    Order more copier toner. Haggard's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Perth
    Posts
    498

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    +/-
    T. Ford -180
    T. Murphy -227

    And the numbers grow every game.
    Yeah, but if a team is losing most of its games its only logical that those numbers are going to grow.
    Haggard's Blog: Can't Buy a Basket. Covering the highs and lows of the NBL

  18. #40
    Next stop June 2015
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    16,091

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    Slow, No toughness, No athleticism...leading to very poor defense. As a result, players can go by, through and over him. I can't say that for any of our other bigs. He is so bad he hurts other player's defensive performances. It's exacerbated because our young C is slow too. He's basically the opposite of Dale Davis. Even undersized SF's can post the man up for an And-one.

    On offense, I think he hurts our ball movement. But the worst part is, he has poor endurance in many games. Not all of them, but more than half. His shot comes up short too often in the 4th. I would love to see his shooting percentage later in the game. While he spreads the floor, he doesn't put pressure on their interior defenders. IMO, I think it would be harder to defend a team that has their PF shooting the midrange game like Antonio McDyess...but hey, I like to win. Also, quick guards are more capable of getting open looks...going around screens...when it's harder to score late in games. Murphy's offensive game is simply easier to shut down...and is one important reason why we had a number of 4th quarter collapses last year.

    Thanks for the thread...

  19. #41
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Posts
    1,150

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Most of his three point shot attempts come off of delayed fastbreaks or high pick and rolls. You (not you specifically) can't have it bith ways, I heard for years that Foster boggs down the offense because he can't shoot so no one guards him, well Troy by any measure is a good shooter and he is guarded.
    Yep, almost all of his 3's come from him trailing the "break" and popping from the top of the key. Seems to me that if we want Roy to be a low post scorer, having our 4 be a "stretch" guy should be a good thing.

  20. #42

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    It's simply because he doesn't produce at a rate equal to his salary. If he was a lower paid guy doing what he does, we'd be pretty tolerant of him. That said, it's not his fault he makes that much. He just signed the contract offered to him. Was he supposed to say 'Uh, no ......... I'm not worth that much - I'm slow and don't play any defense, better make it a lower number' ??

    At 5, 6 or 7 a year, we're looking at him as a bargain. Blame the Warriors.

  21. #43
    Member Trophy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    8,556

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    Thank you for posting this.

    I would have to say and not because I'm a fan of his, he's been the star of this team since Danny has been out. He's been playing his tale off and he truly cares about the team and does his best to step up and help us win which hasn't happened, but he's a reliable star on this team and deserves a lot of credit for doing his best.

    Oh yeah and he's been a decent defender, but it hasn't been enough for the team.

  22. #44
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    4,565

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I don't think people have a problem with Murphy. I think People have a problem with the amount of time JOB plays him.

    Murphy would be a good player off the bench somewhere.
    in a nutshell, this would be my answer as well.

    ideally, murphy should be a shooting specialist, essentially a bigger version of a guy like steve kerr. when he gets on a hot streak, murphy should be able to win some games with his shooting. the defensive rebounding is a bonus.

    the problem is, the coach considers him the second or third best player on the team, and gives him a role and minutes to suit. this season, it's been pretty clear that murphy is overmatched on most nights.

    the caveat is that murphy really might be the second or third best player on this talent depleted team. even so, i'd rather give the starter's role to a (currently) lesser player, but who's all-around game is a better fit to the starting lineup, i.e. hansbrough.

    it also doesn't help that murph is the highest paid pacer for the next 2 seasons. it shouldn't matter on the court, but certainly it affects fans perceptions.

  23. #45
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Downtown baby
    Posts
    12,638

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    There are positives and negatives about the +/- concept.
    There is no way we can let you off the hook for that pun.

  24. #46
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Downtown baby
    Posts
    12,638

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    Quote Originally Posted by MLB007 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Yep, almost all of his 3's come from him trailing the "break" and popping from the top of the key. Seems to me that if we want Roy to be a low post scorer, having our 4 be a "stretch" guy should be a good thing.
    He doesn't stretch the floor as a trailer or a PnPop guy. He gets his points because teams still defend the paint rather than close him out, especially on the delayed break.

    He and TJ run the PnPop out high, but neither of them are looking for a 3rd person to pass to in those plays, so what gain is there? Either TJ drives or Troy shoots.

    You get zero defensive rotations out of this stuff, this is not a PF that comes across the lane on a screen and then drags out to the arc and forces movement with him. Troy's man just sags to the lane a lot and never has to move laterally at all.

    Due to them sagging and then closing out Troy has added a step in jumper which is a good thing itself, but also an indicator of how he hasn't really stretched the floor.

    How much action goes on underneath him?

    Contrast this with Roy who despite struggles at times does command adjustments and even double teams. That makes real spacing opportunities open up and why things slightly improve even when he's struggling and missing some close shots.

  25. #47
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    45
    Posts
    17,000

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    He and TJ run the PnPop out high, but neither of them are looking for a 3rd person to pass to in those plays, so what gain is there? Either TJ drives or Troy shoots.
    The next part of the play isn't really in the playbook.

    Its where ChicagoJ turns off the tv.

    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  26. #48

    Default Re: Why all the negativity towards Murphy?

    Well I guess without Murphy Pacers still seem to lose.. I hope the Magic end up with Murphy

Similar Threads

  1. Murphy on the Cavs' radar
    By DrFife in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 101
    Last Post: 12-22-2009, 01:58 PM
  2. Nice article on Troy Murphy @ RealGM
    By Kemo in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 03-06-2009, 08:32 PM
  3. Coach 'em up, season 2: Troy Murphy
    By thunderbird1245 in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 09-24-2008, 08:30 PM
  4. Get rid of Troy Murphy
    By Aw Heck in forum Trade Proposals
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 01-07-2008, 02:04 AM
  5. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 03-30-2004, 01:13 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •