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Bird says coach stays despite recent struggles (new article)

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  • #16
    Re: Bird says coach stays despite recent struggles (new article)

    Before I question his basketball IQ being a GM, I would like to see what he does with some cap room to work with. We are handcuffed until we rid our selves of Dun, Murph, and Ford's contracts. I wonder what he would do with a chunk cap money to spend? So far the moves he has made have been minor, well except moving JO, which I guess was a huge move. But still that was moving players, I would like to see what he does when signs a bigger free agent. I like the moves he made this past offseason (Jones x2 & Watson). I would still be willing to give him till then before I judge him as a GM.
    Last edited by odeez; 12-29-2009, 05:40 PM.
    Avatar photo credit: Bahram Mark Sobhani - AP

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    • #17
      Re: Bird says coach stays despite recent struggles (new article)

      This really belongs in the Tyler thread, but technically Hicks got it started over here. I'm not really as PO'd as long rant would suggest, but I do think that Hicks' comment represents an opinion that a lot of people have talked themselves into believing is legit, when in fact the stats are about to slam the heck out of it. The rant is big because I want this crazy talk to come back to the truth.

      Originally posted by Hicks View Post
      When Bird misses a close range shot, but gets his own rebound and scores, it's a highlight. When the kid does it, it's all about the FG%.
      Here's a reality check if you are even daring to compare this issue.

      Let's do the Seth Adjusted FG% for rebounding. You remove all offensive boards and apply them to missed FGs, subtracting them from FGAs.

      Then do the FGM/FGA on those numbers (RFG%). A great offensive rebounder, either tracking his own or others, makes up for his own misses. I can agree with that.

      I'll also do the effectiveFG% (eFG%) where you get the 1/2 FGM bonus for hitting a 3, and then I'll do a combo where you get the 3pt bonus AND lose misses for every OREB (eRFG%)

      Bird (career)
      .496 FG%
      .552 RFG%
      .514 eFG%
      .572 eRFG%
      By hitting 3s and getting his team more chances with rebounds, Bird effectively shot 57.2%

      Hans
      .365
      .494 RFG%
      .365 eFG%
      .494 ReFG%
      It's not close.

      Bird was YOUNGER in his rookie year than Hans, but his O REB numbers were better that year than his overall career, so this comparison actually gives Hans an advantage of Bird's lesser years toward the end.

      Hans does draw fouls, so his Points Per Shot is his best stat.
      Bird
      1.26 PPS
      Hans
      1.11 PPS, which is still not that good.


      For comparison, here's Dale Davis, Jeff, and McBob (all career totals)

      Dale
      .530 FG%
      1.033 RFG% (yes, he got more OReb than he missed shots)
      .530 eFG% (no 3PA)
      1.033 eRFG%
      1.28 PPS

      Jeff
      .498 FG%
      1.621 RFG% (way above Dale's and way beyond just his own misses)
      .499 eFG%
      1.625 eRFG%
      1.27 PPS

      McBob
      .429 FG%
      .616 RFG%
      .429 eFG%
      .616 eRFG%
      0.99 PPS (this is poor)


      So if you compare Hans to other "weak" shooting rebound grinders it's a flat-out joke. He stinks as some offensive glass force that justifies his misses.

      Foster makes up for his misses, Hans doesn't even get back to a respectable PF caliber FG% with his OReb.

      And he doesn't even make up for all his FG misses with foul shots when compared to Jeff or Dale. Only McRoberts lags Hans in the points per shot area, having a very low FTA rate.



      Hans is ripped for his poor shooting in spite of some O rebounds because he stinks on an epic level right now. He's not just doing kinda okay.


      And not only that, but it's not like his other game justifies all this. His p36 rebounds is lower than all 3 of those guys, with his 9.6 to McBob's 9.8 being the closest. And his 0.5 blocks per 36 is dwarfed by McBob's 1.8 or Dale's 1.5. Foster is even ahead of him at 0.7.

      His foul rate of 4.8 per game is better than Josh's 5.1, but worse than Jeff's 4.3 or Dale's 3.5. The assist, TO and steals numbers are all typically low as PFs and similar for all 4 guys.


      So what is Hans doing if it's not really big time rebounding or shot blocking or shooting even moderately okay?

      One thing - drawing some fouls. That's it. And of course no one criticizes that part of his game, specifically because it's the one real plus he's brought so far.
      Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 12-29-2009, 05:52 PM.

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      • #18
        Re: Bird says coach stays despite recent struggles (new article)

        You could have just taken the joke and rolled with it. I hope all that work was worth your time, because it wasn't necessary. Come on, man.

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        • #19
          Re: Bird says coach stays despite recent struggles (new article)

          Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
          Here's a reality check if you are even daring to compare this issue.


          So what is Hans doing if it's not really big time rebounding or shot blocking or shooting even moderately okay?

          One thing - drawing some fouls. That's it. And of course no one criticizes that part of his game, specifically because it's the one real plus he's brought so far.
          I think you've really got to give him an adjustment period.

          And what I mean by that, is a lot longer amount of time. He's still wearing the brace, and he's got to learn how to make shots in the Pros.

          He does get alot of his own rebounds.
          Last edited by Sookie; 12-29-2009, 06:10 PM.

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          • #20
            Re: Bird says coach stays despite recent struggles (new article)

            Originally posted by theboyjwo View Post
            Okay sure Larry is great basketball mind, but what does he do with it now. Sits in the corner watching the players and thinks to him self. Geez i would have done this or that instead. Does he try to impart this wisdom to the players we have on the team or does he just sit back and say well I put them together now I'm just gonna watch it play out. Part of me thinks its the latter.
            That's really not fair to Bird. I'm going to assume must posters here have never been in a position of leadership because if you had you'd know it's not easy sitting back observing what's going on and trying to give room to delegate authority w/o circumventing that authority.

            The GM hires a coach to lead a team. And yes, if the team isn't doing well the first thing you look at is coach's leadership style and approach. I'd have to assume that's what Bird has done and has determined it's not the coach, but the players. And how many times have posters made the comment here, "Coach's coach; players play," or words to that effect? Unless you've been in a position of leadership, you don't know how daughting that task can be.

            I think there is something to not having a bonifid "go-to-guy" among the starters, if not the entire team. You'd think Dunleavy would have stepped right into that role considering how well he performed prior to his surgery, but that hasn't been the case and I'm not sure why. But one player has certainly remained consistent for the most part and it comes to a surprise to most Pacers fans: Troy Murphy.

            I'm not saying he has suddenly become that "go-to-guy", but I am saying that throughout this losing streak Murphy has been the one player the team can count on to provide consistent offense. Still, I think someone on this team but particularly among the starters truly needs to make up their mind to be "that guy". Currently, I see no one else except Murphy who is worthy of that role due to his consistency and who has spoken out against this team's lack luster performances of late. TJ has tried, but he doesn't seem to fit in with the starters. It's not his personality; it's his game.

            I'd like to think Dunleavy could be that catalysist for the team. He certainly was very outspoken while he was on the IL. Unfortunately, his performance on the court doesn't lend itself to allowing him to be a cheerleader right now. (Or perhaps it does; since he's not scoring the ball well he may as well grab a set of palm-palms and get over there with the danty ones). Watson's been relatively productive, but he lacks that "takeover the game" skillset. Hibbert and BRush...forget about it. Both are still babies by comparison. So, now you have to start looking to the 2nd unit...

            Dahntay? He, like Watson, hasn't quite earned the right to take charge yet due moreso to his lack of production than anything else. He was brought in to be a defensive stopper, but who has he stopped from scoring? And what happened to all that surprise offense he had at the start of the season? Have teams figured out all they have to guard him because he's unable to create shots for himself? Otherwise, if you leave him out there he just take those uncontested shots. Put a hand in his face or force him to put the ball on the floor and now he's rendered useless, i.e., dribble, dribble, dribble, drive, turnover...tired of seeing it really.

            Hansborough has been the only player worth caring about on this team over the last 10 games or so. He's come out and been very solid on both ends of the court. But as I said concerning Hibbert and BRush, the same applies to Hansborough; he a rookie...too green to be that guy to listen to with authority in that locker room. Thus, if Bird thought the Pacers lacked a leader before trading JO, he's really in trouble now!

            Still, I'd blame this mess moreso on the players than the coach. Players just have to be willing to step up, take responsibility for what's happening out there and be far more conscience of what's taking place on the court. Most of their problems among the starts have been due to carelessness and a lack of awareness. Stupid passes, not going after lose balls, not boxing out, not executing playes, not being aggressive, not putting the dang ball in the basket. You can't put those things on the coach. That's 100% player responsibility.

            Do I think JOB is the right coach for this team or the best coach the Pacers could get today? No. But, I don't blame him for how bad things have gotten. This is on the players, particularly the starters out there whomever they may be. It's not a matter of moving without the ball anymore. That excuse is over since Dunleavy was inserted among the starters. You can't blame it on the lack of post-play considering Hansborough has been productive, and he's done so against the other team's starters and reserve players. And you really can't blame TJ Ford. Although he still hasn't let go of being a pass-first PG, he has managed to score the ball moreso than others - Dunleavy and Dahntay to name just two who stand out the most, IMO, as being non-productive on the offensive end. Yoiu can't even blame BRush because he has been much more ascertive about his game of late, and I like what I'm seeing from him. He seems to be alot more confident in himself and has allowed the game to come to him vice trying to do too much out there. He's still making some mistakes, but I don't see the same insecure BRush out there that I did two weeks ago.

            This team needs to put things together and do so fast! In under 30 games they've managed to get to a half-way point alright...half of the total loses they need to NOT see the post-season. Another 20 tic-marks in the lose column before the season ends and it's over for them. But honestly, I seriously doubt they can turn things around even if Bird made a few trades. So, I'll call it now: The Pacers' playoff hopes are dashed. No way do they make the playoffs. It just ain't happening.

            Sidenote: If you want to blame Bird for brining in these guys, go right ahead. But you'd first best consider what we had - a group of troublemakers -vs- a group of good character players we all hoped would perform better. It's a shame we got rid of the troublemakers for character and yet we somehow managed to get the same mediocore team out of the deal. I expected much better...such a disappointment.
            Last edited by NuffSaid; 12-29-2009, 06:34 PM.

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            • #21
              Re: Bird says coach stays despite recent struggles (new article)

              Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
              Hans is ripped for his poor shooting in spite of some O rebounds because he stinks on an epic level right now. He's not just doing kinda okay.


              And not only that, but it's not like his other game justifies all this. His p36 rebounds is lower than all 3 of those guys, with his 9.6 to McBob's 9.8 being the closest. And his 0.5 blocks per 36 is dwarfed by McBob's 1.8 or Dale's 1.5. Foster is even ahead of him at 0.7.

              His foul rate of 4.8 per game is better than Josh's 5.1, but worse than Jeff's 4.3 or Dale's 3.5. The assist, TO and steals numbers are all typically low as PFs and similar for all 4 guys.


              So what is Hans doing if it's not really big time rebounding or shot blocking or shooting even moderately okay?

              One thing - drawing some fouls. That's it. And of course no one criticizes that part of his game, specifically because it's the one real plus he's brought so far.
              And? I think most posters here who paid attention on draft day knew this about him already. Hans isn't going to score the ball all that much, but what he will do - HAS done - is remain aggressive and play within the offense. That's what we expected from this 4-time All American...just come in and play the game the way it was meant to be played for 48+ mins.

              I've never expected much out of Hansborough from Day-1 except that he brings that same level of intensity from the college game to the NBA. Can anyone argue that he hasn't done just that? Personally, I wish the rest of this team played the game the same way Hansborough does. The Pacers would be in a much better position than they are now for sure.

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              • #22
                Re: Bird says coach stays despite recent struggles (new article)

                Good stuff Nuffsaid. I really can't disagree with any of that.

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                • #23
                  Re: Bird says coach stays despite recent struggles (new article)

                  Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
                  I worked really hard on something Hicks was joking about.[/B]


                  Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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                  • #24
                    Re: Bird says coach stays despite recent struggles (new article)

                    Originally posted by EmCeE View Post
                    Good stuff Nuffsaid. I really can't disagree with any of that.
                    Thanks. I'm just telling it like it is...or atleast how I see it.

                    Simply put, this team needs to wake the **** up and fast!!! There's just no excuse for the caliber of play we've seen of them since Granger went down - NONE!!!

                    There are enough healthy veterans out there to lead as well as perform, but for whatever reason they just aren't doing it. It's as if all but a select few have decided to cash it all in long before they're reached the season's half-way point. In my view, that's very disheartening. I really did expect alot more from this team than they've given.

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                    • #25
                      Re: Bird says coach stays despite recent struggles (new article)

                      Stick with the 3-year plan! Don't blow things up.

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                      • #26
                        Re: Bird says coach stays despite recent struggles (new article)

                        Originally posted by Speed View Post
                        Let me throw in a prediction here, since nowhere else to put it. 4 wins in a row, starting tonight. You got Chicago away after laying the biggest egg in 5 years against Miami, we should see optimal effort, tonight.

                        Minnesota and Memphis at home.

                        New York on the road. Mike D likes it at MSA.

                        All winnable games. Now, not the way they've played, but talent wise they aren't grossly out matched, either.

                        I'll be back tomorrow to blast my own prediction, I suspect.

                        I feel ya, but if it is a cake walk schedule upcomming and they pull an "ofer" then what does that say about the current state of Pacerland?
                        Sittin on top of the world!

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