2012 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws
2011 PD ABA Fantasy Keeper League Champion, sports.ws
2006 PD ABA Fantasy League runner up, sports.ws
I started a new thread to help educate us on this year's draft, so if you decide to reply put it there. Thanks.
I am very frustrated with both the Pacers and Colts organizations right now.
Here's Bird's real dilemma:
He brought in both this coach and nearly all these players. There is debate as to the GSW trade for Dun and Troy, generally it's considered a Bird deal whenever Dun or Troy play great or when Jackson acts up, otherwise it's apparently all Walsh.
Regardless even Foster came in while he was coaching, and he was in the front office when every single player was brought in or drafted.
So if it really is the players then who was it that evaluated them? Weren't they bringing in guys that could support a coach and plan no matter what? But now those players need to know that they'll go before the coach goes?
That sounds like players with attitude issues, at least in Bird's view, and yet Bird is the one responsible for bringing them in. So either it's JOB's issue or Bird's, and even if it's JOB's issue he was also brought in by Bird.
I was a big fan of Rush's game, big fan of Roy's attitude, and have seen lots of potential in Roy after not thinking much of him as a draft pick. However, both have struggled and I think we all know how I feel about the Hans pick. Even Rush I thought was taken a bit too high and I really wanted to the Pacers to trade down and use Dun to help get another 20-30th pick.
The point being, for all the credit we have been giving him the results are starting to suggest that the 3 year plan is headed more down than up right now, and that was not expected even by more pessimistic fans like myself or Peck.
I do agree with some of you. A vote of confidence might be a step to feel out the situation. Let's say he gets that vote, play continues to be poor or worse, perhaps a player or two are dealt and bad play continues even beyond that...then what? How does that not point a finger right back at JOB.
I'm not saying a GM can't make mistakes. They all make mistakes. But there is a clear trend with Bird to somewhat dismiss those errors or refuse to acknowledge them. This thing with JOB sure seems like one of them.
S***, I'm still going to games that cost me a fair amount of cash in tough economy. I'm as invested in the team as I could possibly be, so it's not like I'm just knee jerking. And that describes a lot of other core PD people for sure.
So certainly I'm as against the flip-flopping from game to game as anyone, but this isn't the same thing. This is losing badly and then doing it again and again.
"Plagued by injuries?" Doing the best with what he has? Yes, because once again we must totally ignore the brawl season which featured Ron totally out, JO out for 15 games to start and then a bunch more injured, Jackson out for 25, Tinsley out for a ton of games with "injuries", Reggie and Foster starting the year injured....I mean good lord people, let's get some perspective here.
It's Granger and a start without Dunleavy. Well they freaking didn't even have Dun last year and did have Granger out for some games last year with injury. Quis was one of their top defenders and missed his usual ton of games.
It's just stupid to view the team this year as held back by injuries. If anything we saw some better play without Dun or Troy even out there and there appears to be depth to the roster, at least compared to the starting talent levels.
Carlisle kept showing up at the top of the COY voting specifically for winning with roster issues and players coming up bigger than expected (including Ron's only AS and DPOY season). It's time for JOB to start proving his worth.
The Houston Rockets called and told JOB and Bird to freaking man up already. The Pacers have about as much input from Yao and TMac this year as the Rockets do. Houston is flipping 18-13 right now with guys like Brooks, Scola, Ariza, and Battier...oh, and somehow they find a way to get low draft picks like Landry and Budinger significant playing time without losing as well.
O'Brien's job is secure.
"Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"
I agree this sounds more as a warning to O'Brien than to the players. I wouldn't be surprised if JOB was allowed to know that he's a deadline to put up a better product on the floor.
However, I disagree with most (all?) of you in one aspect: personally, I don't see definitive signs that the coach has lost the team. There's still plenty of defensive hustle and ball-sharing. Making body language readings is always problematic, but in the Miami game I noticed that players like Hansbrough, Murphy and Dahntay Jones were clearly bothered and unhappy with what was going on. It seems to me that will that the bricks they're throwing, they've been trying to get to the rim more than usual.
Every team goes through rough stretches. If they last for too long, then eventually the coach will lose the players as they'll just stop trusting whatever he's trying to do and not even try to do it.
Then again, I don't see those typical signs of a team that has tuned out the coac - selfish play, lack of effort and hustle, fastbreak points allowed.. they're still clearing the defensive glass more or less decently, which is no small feat for a team with a single above-average rebounder for his position in the entire roster; they're 5th in the league in eFG% allowed and 11th in def. efficiency, which is very good for a team marching out there with a Murphy/Hibbert combo for so many minutes (and rank 9th in fastbreak points pg allowed); they're 9th in FTA per FGA, which shows they're trying to attack the rim and draw fouls instead of just lazily settling for the jumper. The biggest problem, it seems to me, is that they haven't been hitting shots, as simplistic as this may sound. In the last 2 seasons the Pacers were one of the best teams in the league with the long-shot, this season they're probably one of the worst.
I understand that 2 consecutive blow-out losses makes one wonder, but I'd wait before jumping to conclusions. When one is seeing a team whose players run away from physical contact in screens, as "screeners" or "screeneds", or jogging half-heartedly running back to the defensive end, then it's safe to assume that the coach isn't able to make the players believe enough to at least try. But I've yet to see that happening.
Of course, that never stopped a GM from firing a coach (the Nets with Frank are a the very last example of that, I thought they were playing very decently for their level of talent when they decided to release him), but if I were Bird I'd try everything to stick with O'Brien for at least as long as it'd take me to get rid of this bunch of veterans. It may take more than 1 year, are they going to go with an interim coach for so long? Nah, unless the teams stops trying I'd just endure the frustration and wait.
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I'm guessing that there are things that Bird and the FO sees and is privy to when it comes to the Team during Practice and off-court activities that the Public and the Press is not aware of.......so there may be others reasons as to why Bird said what he said. So, I can agree with Bird that some blame can be placed on the Players themselves for where we stand.
However, I refuse to believe that the Coaching Staff does not share ANY blame at all for where we are right now. What amount of blame falls on the Coach and how much falls on the Players....I do not know.....but I do feel that there is a certain amount of inflexibility and rigidness with in-game decision making that has affected how the Team performs along with a lack of consistency that is preached by the Coaching Staff to some players but not all.
I do see a lack of effort on the part of Players.....so, I'm not going to ignore that the notion that Players should not share any blame in this ( I've seen more effort and a "never say die" attitude from a much younger and less experienced Team like the Kings ).....but for Bird to ignore that there may not be other factors that could explain where we are now is simply burying your Head in the sand. Maybe this is part of the way that Bird operates.....maybe he has a belief that the FO must ALWAYS back the Coach no matter what....or worse, maybe there is an unwillingness to acknowledge that they may have made a mistake in extending JO'B.
[I]Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.
Of course, having who many consider to be a leading ROY candidate on your roster helps....but ( based off of what I have heard from Kings Radio) having a Coach that is willing to making minor adjustments to his Offense/Defense based off of what he has seen from his Players probably has helped.
Last edited by CableKC; 12-29-2009 at 02:51 AM.
[I]Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.
“Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill
“If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird
So I either Boird is a genius that the rest of the experts/fans cant understand
or he is lost in his job
Sittin on top of the world!
I dont have any quote or story to back this up but even if Walsh was the deciding vote, I have a very hard time beleiving that Bird was unaware of the trade. In fact, I think he was a driving force behind it
Again thats speculation on my part but I go off Birds track record like drafting Crosher and then giving him an absurd contract based off of one playoff
Sittin on top of the world!