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Thread: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

  1. #26
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I am making a new personal rule. from now on I will not consider any discussion, argument, or opinions that contain the words "five game winning streak" mainly because I think it is of no value. To isolate 5 games of a long 82 game NBA season is IMO absurd
    In general you are 100% correct. However in a few isolated cases there are mitigating factors that merit consideration. This five game win streak is one of them.

    Look I certainly don't believe that the team that put up the win streak was going to be an over .500% team. However I do not believe they would have been 4-17 either.

    But the difference in that streak vs. the current one is the style we were playing and most importantly the players we were playing.

    Troy Murphy is that bad on defense, there I said it.

    I hate saying it but it is what it is, he may be the single worst defensive power forward I have ever seen. I know that sounds like hyperbole but I am being serious and the fact that he has improved his defense over the past 5 games or so just tells me how bad he really was after his return.

    Look I know you don't like Roy, I've always known you don't like Roy and yes I will admit that I may be trying anything to see something that may not be there. But as was mentioned above I think Roy is being killed on defense because he constantly is leaving his man to cover the middle. Notice Troy Murphy does not get into foul trouble? Well that is because he does not even pretend to cover the middle, which I admit may not be his job but still.

    I would like to see Roy just play 5 games with Jeff Foster has his power forwards and then see if he is still as bad defensively. I don't know the answer to that but I have a guess and my guess is that you would not be nearly as critical of Roy if he had a power forward who could help take some of the pressure off of him defensively.

    That should sound familiar to you btw. Remember everybody called him Reek Smits up until about 93 when a certain other player started to play besides him.

    You have been beating the "no center" drum for a good long while now and I think that maybe this time around you are the one living a little in the past. I admit I come the era of the big man (80's & 90's) so yes I am more comfortable with them. But I think you are stuck back in the early part of the 2000's and fail to see that almost every great team has a legitimate center playing on it.

    Boston - Perkins (legit center)
    Lakers - Bynum (legit center)
    Magic - Howard (Legit center)
    Nuggets - Nene (maybe a forward however he is as big if not bigger than Bill Russell)
    Hawks - Horford (Probably a forward however he is a very strong post player)
    Spurs - Duncan (legit center)
    Heat - O'Neal (finally after all of these years he is now calling himself a center)
    Cavs - O'Neal/Big Z (legit Centers)

    You see when I think of the past and say centers I think of Robinson, Ewing, Hakeem, Etc.

    You think Stanley Roberts, Kevin Duckworth, John Koncack, Chris Dudley.

    Where does Roy fit in that group? He certainly is not ever going to be in the upper class. However I don't believe he is going to be below any of the bottom players either.

    I think somewhere in the middle is about right.

    It was also brought up that Roy can have his confidence shattered. Well to be honest with you I will agree with you here a little bit and say we need some more mentally strong players. But we have gone way way out of our way to protect the delicate mental state of Rush, yet Roy is openly told he can't play certain types of players.

    I think with a different coach and a different front court partner Roy would be a different player.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

  2. #27

    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    It would be nice if we had a coaching staff who could treat all the players the same. Telling Roy that he can't play against this team, but then leaving Rush in as a confidence booster when he is chucking up terrible shots...it just doesn't look good.

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  4. #28
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I am making a new personal rule. from now on I will not consider any discussion, argument, or opinions that contain the words "five game winning streak" mainly because I think it is of no value. To isolate 5 games of a long 82 game NBA season is IMO absurd
    I've made a lot of jokes about folks having to pretend the five game win streak never happened.

    I've quoted George Orwell ala 1984.

    Now my prediction is actually happening.

    It's like a modern day digital book burning.

    THE FIVE GAME WIN STREAK NEVER HAPPENED!
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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  6. #29
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    Well I know I beat my own drum on draft analysis and honestly I think many reasonable posters here could see (or have seen) similar aspects to prospects when they've made the time to really watch them in long game action.

    So we return to Roy and my knock on him was "not athletic enough, very awkward movements". I had been excited when he returned to G'town but then saw him his final year and was disappointed.

    However what turned me around on him was seeing him work around those issues. So yes, he's not graceful at all and that's a problem. He won't be a great rebounder or defender, much like Smits. But he has shown that at times, when he's playing slower and more comfortable and has off-ball action to work off of, that he can be a very effective anchor point for an offense.

    Thus the Smits talk. Having him run down and shoot a quick jumper from the high post is not how you use him. JOB has made some effort to work Roy in the low post, but the problem seems to be a limited playbook when working from that situation.


    And if you'll recall I want on a mega-rant in preseason about exactly this issue, about JOB's refusal to try and work up the Roy low post game at first. He did give us perhaps 2 games devoted to that, but mostly it was the "on the fly" crap we are seeing much more of.

    IMO JOB failed to recognize a key opportunity early enough to take advantage of it. Had it been me walking out of the Orlando camp I would have restructured the whole shooting match to play off that low post game, and I mean right then while there was still time to teach it and design plays off it (more than the basics).

    Now he's stuck in No Man's Land. Typically in any game right now I see bits of the new and bits of the old. He's got different guys working different styles, and I think a part of that is driven by the styles those players either want to play or are comfortable playing.

    There is no way you see AJ and Roy out there and see the same interaction that you get with TJ and Roy (is there any?). And if you haven't noticed, TJ and Troy love playing together, love to run the PnR out top with Troy fading to the top of the arc. Those two fall right into that plan any time they are together.

    And that's the problem. That's not the style you get if Watson comes in, or if Troy isn't out there. And worse yet, it's not even just a tiny portion of what they do as in having a scheme where you always show that but usually are going to something totally different but rather it's just basically all they've got. If TJ doesn't score or kick it to Troy then there's not much action after that point.

    In total when you bring in the other pairings or groups and their comfort plays what you have is this bizarre patchwork of half-plays that are totally disjointed and rarely involve more than 2 or 3 guys max. That leaves half the offense completely detached and eventually uninterested.

    For example, I love Rush's team game but if you don't have a team offense going then he's playing in his weakest area. He didn't get a bunch of ISO work at Kansas, none of those guys did. It was all at least a 3 man game with Mario-Rush-Arthur, or perhaps Collins or Jackson or whomever. Rush was often the go-between guy, not the "watch me take 'em" guy.


    The irony in all this is that I have to admit that Bayless would have been the better player for JOB's system, much like a crack addict would do so much better with crack instead of healthy food and water.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 12-28-2009 at 07:46 PM.

  7. #30
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    McKeyFan - so you are saying this team is doubleplus bad and always have been? They not only never won 5 games, but have never won more than 5 total in a season. This year is actually a sign of improvement after decades of misery.

    It's always been that way, just go check the records department. Well, you must make a request to see the records via me and I'll pass them on to you in a few days.

  8. #31
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    But as was mentioned above I think Roy is being killed on defense because he constantly is leaving his man to cover the middle.
    It is 100% that, it's a major problem. It appears the scheme is to run lots of doubles from the weakside big, typically Roy, and then hopefully get a rotation down to Roy's man.

    Now I do think Roy's had a problem with showing too soon, but I also think they are working something of a gimmick defense as well. Sometimes they don't even need the help, but usually when they do it's part of their newer "double the PnR man always" style. Watch how often a PnR draws a very quick double even out top. That's because they can't defend the PnR with two players normally.

    Personally I think TJ is a major factor there, he makes terrible decisions on most PnR choices. Under when he should go over and vice versa, rarely through, rarely fighting, almost never anticipating the play.

    I've seen Rush and Jones and Watson beaten too, it's not just TJ. But I think the play with TJ, Troy, and Dun on PnR action has come to the point that it required a change in scheme.

    And that scheme is extremely unfavorable to Roy's abilities. The kid needed more than anything to learn to stay home and stop coming so far out to block shots last year which resulted in high foul counts. So this year you start asking him to totally leave his man...but not too soon or too late?

    When Roy stays back on his assignment more you get things like the Duncan shot block. Not always, but it's manageable. Roy as a quick doubler across the lane is not a great application of his abilities.

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  10. #32
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    This is not hard stuff. Roy needs a good defensive PF next to him. He had that during the infamous 5 game winning streak where the team strangely found a way to defend...and actually had a few blow-outs. Troy is poison for Roy. Tyler may be adequate, but from what I've seen they don't get many minutes together. Foster would be solid, but he's not around anymore than Granger these days.

    All Roy has is Troy...and it's killing him.

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