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Thread: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    I knew going into the year that this would be a struggle to make the playoffs. I think I predicted either 36 or 38 wins however I said that I was optimistic that the team would be better although the record would not indicate it.

    I was wrong on both counts apparently.

    Never in my worst pessimistic view did I think that we would be as bad as we are right now. In fact truth be told we are worse than our record indicates because if you throw out that five game win streak we have won 4 games.

    However the five games count so we are a much superior 9 games.

    I said on my twitter account the other night and I will repeat it here.

    This goes beyond coaching, this goes beyond the players.

    This franchise right now has a losing mentality and there are times we are beaten before we touch the floor. Dahntay Jones talked about this a little tonight with Mike Wells after the game and I think there is a LOT to what he is saying.

    I know it is cliché' but winning begets winning and losing begets losing. Right now the Pacers do NOT believe that they can win games.

    Why is the only real question?

    It has been said that this may be the least talented team in the NBA and that may or may not be true. But there is enough talent on the floor night in and night out that they should not be embarrassing themselves the way they have the last two games and frankly for most of the games this season.

    I'm open to about any reason at this point in time. I think there is a coaching issue, I think there is a talent issue and now honestly I am concluding that there is also a front office issue as well.

    Pick you poison and most likely you will at least be partially right.

    I want to take a min. to talk about a coaching change. Not because I am advocating it but because I want to talk about something that I have heard said in person and I've read here a couple of times.

    The fear is that firing O'Brien will not only not help the club but it will end any and all hopes for this season.

    Well right now I think it's pretty safe to say that barring some form of miracle this season is toast and sadly has been since about the second week of November. Yes, I know it is too early to write off the club but let's not kid ourselves here.

    Anyway I want to address the fear that firing O'Brien will do no good.

    For arguments sake here let's assume that management has decided that there has to be a coaching change.

    Whoever takes over the club if they are instructed to change the entire structure of the team I do not see that as being a bad thing.

    By that I mean if they just tell the person refocus the club on man to man defense, a more structured offense and for Gods sake remove players from the lineup if they are not defending at the level we expect from them.

    Then I do not see that as being something harmful to the club. In fact with certain players I think this needs to be done. Hell in fact I think this needs to be done period.

    Ok, the more I've sit here and typed this the more I am convinced that a change needs to be made. I did not intend to go in this direction in fact I wanted to make it a point to say that I don't think O'Brien is the fault for what is happening now.

    I still do NOT fault him for everything that is going on. But the more I type this the less I feel inclined to defend him and in fact I somewhat feel like there are issues that directly attributed to decisions he has made.

    Oh well, I'll talk myself down off of the ledge with him for the moment because for whatever reason I just don't have faith that he is going to be gone anytime soon.

    BTW, if you read today's paper you will see that he is not happy again with his starting lineup. We don't have enough speed out there according to him.

    Why is it I have a feeling that this is code for "I really don't like Roy Hibbert". I would not be surprised to see Roy on the bench with Tyler and Troy starting.

    Now I'm conflicted here because on the one hand I want to see more of Tyler, however Jim's lack of patience with Roy yet he never flinching love of Murphy makes me want to scream.

    Yes, Roy has problems. If he wants to bench him I can't argue. I would argue that I think a lot of Roy's problems are from the coaching position but I digress.

    However the fact that he somehow can't see a problem with Troy is not only unfair, well frankly it's just bad coaching.

    Ok, now not only am I jumping off the edge about O'Brien I want to take Murphy along with me.

    What is our record with and without him again?

    Alright to be fair this goes beyond him, however it struck me today while I was talking with Diamond Dave that Troy Murphy has somewhat of a Jermaine O’Neal affect on the team. Now don't get me wrong Troy from what I can tell is not demanding his touches or anything but we have to alter both our offense and our defense to accommodate him on the floor. So other players may be suffering because they are being asked to either pick up the slack on defense or to play somewhat out of position on offense.

    Again that was not my intention coming into this so I think I will stop now.

    Like I said above there is blame to go around so I will stop picking on both of them.

    Let me talk about Mike for a min.

    I truly believe that this is fatigue, however during the Atlanta game I saw something that I did not like and commented to DD after the game.

    Mike seemed to be wagging the finger a lot at all of the players that night, telling them they missed cuts or assigned spots on the floor.

    Now to be fair as was pointed out to me Mike is a team elected Co-Captain so maybe it is his job to get on people. However when you are stinking up the floor (and I'm not talking about missing shots here) then I am pretty sure the old saying "three fingers point back at me" applies here. I don't care that Mike is missing shots because I believe that is from fatigue from his legs. But some of the turnovers and careless play can not be attributed to being tired.

    However if Mike has hit the wall it really might be a good idea to limit his time on the floor again.

    I think the thing that has me down the most now is not the here and now, but I am now questioning the plan.

    I had myself convinced that the goal was to get through this year and next season all of these contracts are expiring contracts so in fact we can start dealing them this summer.

    Now I am under the impression that we might do that for one or two of the contracts but they are really wanting to let most of it walk away.

    That takes my faith in this down more than I can say. So the question is when this is all said and done what are we hoping to come away with?

    I just don't see adding a couple of more low level free agents as being the answer to anything. I thought we were going to try and pull off a trade for a good player but now I wonder if we have the horses to even do that.

    Now we come to the part that I am at the very minimum perplexed by Bird and at the worst have my faith shaken to the core.

    It is just obvious to me that the players and the coach do not mesh. The talent that we brought in is not the talent he values and thus the style of play we have is a mess.

    I'm not trying to defend O'Brien here much but I think it's safe to say that Bird and the entire world knew the style of play that Jim wants to run. Yes I know you build your team as though it didn't matter who the coach is but then for the love of God why would you go out and extend the coach when you had to at least have the feeling that they style and the players were not going to mesh.

    Unless, as I fear, there is literally nothing going to be done here.

    I was talking with BillS about fan base and I think this may be to the point that even he has to admit that the fans that are there are the fans that are going to be there for the foreseeable future. So maybe Bird and Co. have decided that we are going to be there no matter what so there will be nothing done other than lineup changes.

    You know I have typed all of this and basically I could have just said "I have no real idea what is wrong here" and been done with it. I mean I have thoughts and suspicions but even I am not so stubborn as to think that I know for fact what is wrong. I don't.

    To quote the great general from War Games "I would p!ss on a sparkplug if I thought it would help". Right now that seems about as apt as anything else I would think of.

    However let me go on record right now as to say this.

    I am not for tanking. I am never for tanking.

    But at this point in time I can think of nothing worse than going on some late season surge where we somehow get back to the 9th spot.

    Sadly we need an infusion of talent and while I would like to make trades to do some of this getting a top 10 player would certainly help the overall talent quota for the team as well.

    This is sad really. I hate the fact that I have written off the season. I don't want to, really I don't. But the sad truth is this team is on a treadmill to nowhere and I don't see it ending anytime soon.

    God is there anything positive I can say tonight?

    I guess it is nice to see Tyler get extended min. on the floor and too finally see Head get some burn.


    Basketball isn't played with computers, spreadsheets, and simulations. ChicagoJ 4/21/13

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    BTW, if you read today's paper you will see that he is not happy again with his starting lineup. We don't have enough speed out there according to him.

    Why is it I have a feeling that this is code for "I really don't like Roy Hibbert".
    JOB could say "I really don't like Roy Hibbert" and it wouldn't be more obvious than it is right now.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    I think they are running the risk of losing Rush and Roy completely. The lack of direction has confused the team and killed some of the confidence they have in the coaching. The inability to reign in some players is doing the same.

    I agree about Mike. He's taking control without earning it. The contrast to this is back when they were winning 5 you had Dahntay Jones as the most vocal, dominate player on the court. Sure he also took iffy shots in the lane that he still insists on forcing, but his PERSONALITY was also allowed to be the biggest one on the court at the time and the team reflected it.

    We first saw issues as Granger insisted on shooting like crazy and started to take over. Then when he went out we had a big power vacuum that had to be filled. TJ rushed to fill it and that was a problem. Dun has stepped in as though he naturally should fill it despite struggling and not yet earning it in the eyes of the new guys. And in the end you have this instability with the pecking order and roles of players.

    Guys don't know or don't agree on who "the man" is, and without that they are struggling to know who they should be.

    Seriously, who or what is the anchor? There is no key player, it's clearly not JOB, and I don't think their is a sound enough offensive or defensive scheme to guide them. When these guys come to the arena for a game they have almost no sense of what they should visualize themselves doing. And if they do anything and it's wrong for more than a couple of plays the coach basically undermines them at that point and finishes off their confidence.


    PS - they also have zero direction with the offense. Sure they try stuff, but it changes all the time and often isn't that inventive or inspired.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    So many things running through my head that I want to respond to. And maybe this is in a moment of weakness and I admit I might regret saying this later. I don't like Roy Hibbert as a player. I think he works hard, tries to play hard, is a nice guy, but I think he is a huge liability defensively and I have real doubts he'll ever turn into anything more than a backup center and I don't understand why most of you in this forum for some reason think is really good or could be good down the road. The common refrain is all he needs is a big man coach or a head coach who will seemingly play him no matter what he does on the court. I ask myself why do so many of you either think he is worth the effort and time. I think probably the hope of having a real center might be clouding your viewpoint. I'll admit I don't want a "real center" at least not like him. The game has changed, centers aren't what they used to be. Honestly, watching Roy try to play basketball drives me crazy. I wish we never had drafted him.

    Having said that - I've never liked Troy as a player. What would we ever need in a slow, unathletic, slow, short, slow, non-energy player who has an extremely limited skill and talent set. And there are time he's our best offensive player - think about that for a moment - right now there are times when he's our best offensive player. Having said how much I dislke Troy, I think blaming him for the record of the team is just wrong, citing the team's record with him in the lineup vs with him out of the lineup, I think has no basis in reality. What is our record with Mike in the lineup. What is our record with Ford starting, what is our record on Fridays. That 5 game winning streak was meaningless and IMO meant nothing in that "recapturing the magic of the 5 game streak" is not meaningful at all. That was a clear aberation. Some of you sem to be impling that if we just bench Troy the glory days of the 5-game win streak return. I think that is laughable.

    Worst though is the combination of Troy and Roy together that is IMO a hidieous combination. Atlhough I do understand that O'Brien has few other options. Solomon is struggling, Tyler is a rookie who is limited in the minutes he can play (at least until recently. Jeff being out is hurting us more than anyone is willing to admit.

    Let me touch on O'Brien. I have not seen the past two games, so I don't know, but he may veruy well have lost the team and if he can't get it back then he does need to be replaced. Getting blown out to average teams is not the way to continue the season. And no losing by 20 points every game has little do to with lack of talent. That shows a lack of effort. Losing close games, including losing large and small leads, that shows a lack of talent, not being able to win the game in the clutch shows a lack of talent, but getting blown out most every game shows lack of effort, heart, and an unwillingness to work.

    The only time I've really enjoyed this team this season was when Jeff and Tyler were on the court together. If Jeff were healthy and if Tyler had two more years of experience - we could really win some games with those two guys on the court together.

    I say this without any fear of being wrong, the Pacers big players as a group are the worst in the NBA.

    So you can replace the coach, and the blowout losses likely will end, but after the customary honeymoon period, the losses will resume. This roster stinks
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 12-28-2009 at 08:57 AM.

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    You can call me Taz cinotimz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    Peck, Peck, Peck. And all of the rest wanting a pound of flesh for having being subjected to this bottom feeder basketball.

    Its so easy to lose sight of the forest for the trees some times.

    We just need a little more patience. Ill say it again.

    Patience.

    I know we live in an instant gratification society, but if we can just hang in there for a few more months, things will be so much better soon.

    Patience.

    Remember where we came from. Jackson, Artest, O'neal, Tinsley, Harrison, Harrington, Anthony Johnson, Croshere, etc. And most all of us wanted most all of them gone. And in most cases almost noone else in the league wanted them. So that made getting rid of them incredibly difficult.

    But theyre all gone. And we have some of the residuals of getting rid of them still here. And now we want them gone.

    And very soon, they will be. You want Murphy gone? Give it a year at the most, and he will be gone. You want Ford gone? Give it a year at the most, he will be gone. You want O'brien gone? Give it 6 months at the most and he will be gone.

    Those guys were never meant to be a long term solution. They were the transition between the gangsta days and the bringing back of the kind of basketball that Hoosiers like to see. Factor all these guys out of the equation and then see how you like it with them gone, because thats happening-its not a matter of if, only when.

    Do you like Tyler? Hope so, cause he will likely be a staple in the organization for some time. Do you like Hibbert? Hope so, because hes likely going to be around for some time. How bout Rush? Some do, some dont, but given a different system and coach, most agree theres definitely useful talent there as we witnessed the last month or so of last season. Excited about AJ Price? good, because he likely will be around for some time. How bout Dahntay Jones grit and determination? He will be around for some time. And we got this guy named Danny Granger that, when healthy, is pretty damn good. Are you intriqued by the talent of guys like McRoberts, S. Jones and Luther Head? How bout a Mike Dunleavy on a mid-level type deal?

    Then you throw in a couple of significant pieces that can be obtained within the year when Murphy and/or Ford are gotten rid of. And probably most importantly a top 5 draft pick in a decent draft this year, with a realistic shot at Wall?

    Then throw in a new coach that everyone will likely get excited about because thats what we do when we get a new coach.

    Now to maximize that plan, we have to endure Murphy and Ford playing. So as to not totally *******ize their value. REmember the more they play-almost regardly of how bad we may think they look-they maintain a certain amount of value-far more than if they were buried on the bench. Why do you think there is talk of Murphy to Cleveland?

    So whats the alternative? Another 38 win season? Were we really that happy with those the last few years? But because now we might win 20 games its so much worse?

    How? Really? If weve got no chance, then we got no chance. Instead of dealing with all the crap we are dealing with now, why not think about this?

    At the start of 2010 watching Wall, Rush, Granger, Hans, and Hibbert. Then throw D. Jones, Dunleavy, AJ Price, Head, S. Jones, and McRoberts into the mix. Maybe Lorbek for good measure in the next year or so.

    And of course a brand new coach. And we havent really any idea who we might be able to obtain when we unload the expirings of Murphy/Ford. But we will get something one way or another that is valuable. Whether through trade or the ensuing capspace.

    Patience.

    If you liked that little 5 game win streak, that should serve as a taste of things to come. With significant additions. And watching that team is only about a year away.

    Just need a little patience. To allow these things to all play out. Its been like a 5 year process. And its about over.

    Whats another few months?

    Patience, I say. Patience.
    Last edited by cinotimz; 12-28-2009 at 08:11 AM.

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  11. #6
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    I'm not for tanking, but that's what it's come to because that's what other teams do. So we are going to have to do it too since it's the quickest way to get the needed players.

    So instead of an outright tank don't try to right a ship going in the right/wrong direction?

    And the way I see it this is a good year for a top 3 pick.

    And I watch the Pacers win or lose.
    Last edited by Will Galen; 12-28-2009 at 08:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    So many things running through my head that I want to respond to. And maybe this is in a moment of weakness and I admit I might regret saying this later. I don't like Roy Hibbert as a player. I think he works hard, tries to play hard, is a nice guy, but I think he is a huge liability defensively and I have real doubts he'll ever turn into anything more than a backup center and I don't understand why most of you in this forum for some reason think is really good or could bedown the road, if he gets a big-man coach r a hed coach who lets him lay through his mistakes. I ask myself why do so many of you either think he is worth the effort and time. I think probably the hope of having a real center might be clouding your viewpoint. I'll admit I don't want a "real center" at least not like him. The game has changed, centers aren't what they used to be. Honestly, watching Roy try to play basketball drives me crazy. I wish we never had drafted him.
    The roster is awful no doubt and Hibbert is leading the charge. Thank you for this! I love the guy's work ethic and enthusiasm, but I say let's just view him as hopefully a solid backup in any long term sense. He's supposedly an offensive player, yet his has no move in the post other than a hook shot. At 7-2 he struggles to get any other type of shot off.

    I'll agree that I'd like his chance to prove or disprove this assessment and his future payday prospects to play out in a different style of play more suited to him. However, my prediction is he will not be able to overcome his exteme one-dimensionality, lack of agility and athleticism, and complete lack of traditional power inside qualities. Don't overpay this guy in any extension situation! If he's got value as a trade sweetner, I'd have the option open.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    I am not for tanking but I am for playing the young players to see what they can do. I recall when Smits first came into the league it took him a few years to turn into a good player. He was never the defender or rebounder a 7'4 guy should have been. But he was great for this franchise. I predict the same for Roy once he learns to play in this league. As for OB the season is over the the Pacers. I see him playing the vets to try and save his job. He needs to see what the young guys can do to see if indeed they are our future.
    Last edited by Pacerblue; 12-28-2009 at 08:50 AM. Reason: spelling error

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Peck, Peck, Peck. And all of the rest wanting a pound of flesh for having being subjected to this bottom feeder basketball.

    Its so easy to lose sight of the forest for the trees some times.

    We just need a little more patience. Ill say it again.

    Patience.

    I know we live in an instant gratification society, but if we can just hang in there for a few more months, things will be so much better soon.

    Patience.

    Remember where we came from. Jackson, Artest, O'neal, Tinsley, Harrison, Harrington, Anthony Johnson, Croshere, etc. And most all of us wanted most all of them gone. And in most cases almost noone else in the league wanted them. So that made getting rid of them incredibly difficult.

    But theyre all gone. And we have some of the residuals of getting rid of them still here. And now we want them gone.

    And very soon, they will be. You want Murphy gone? Give it a year at the most, and he will be gone. You want Ford gone? Give it a year at the most, he will be gone. You want O'brien gone? Give it 6 months at the most and he will be gone.

    Those guys were never meant to be a long term solution. They were the transition between the gangsta days and the bringing back of the kind of basketball that Hoosiers like to see. Factor all these guys out of the equation and then see how you like it with them gone, because thats happening-its not a matter of if, only when.

    Do you like Tyler? Hope so, cause he will likely be a staple in the organization for some time. Do you like Hibbert? Hope so, because hes likely going to be around for some time. How bout Rush? Some do, some dont, but given a different system and coach, most agree theres definitely useful talent there as we witnessed the last month or so of last season. Excited about AJ Price? good, because he likely will be around for some time. How bout Dahntay Jones grit and determination? He will be around for some time. And we got this guy named Danny Granger that, when healthy, is pretty damn good. Are you intriqued by the talent of guys like McRoberts, S. Jones and Luther Head? How bout a Mike Dunleavy on a mid-level type deal?

    Then you throw in a couple of significant pieces that can be obtained within the year when Murphy and/or Ford are gotten rid of. And probably most importantly a top 5 draft pick in a decent draft this year, with a realistic shot at Wall?

    Then throw in a new coach that everyone will likely get excited about because thats what we do when we get a new coach.

    Now to maximize that plan, we have to endure Murphy and Ford playing. So as to not totally *******ize their value. REmember the more they play-almost regardly of how bad we may think they look-they maintain a certain amount of value-far more than if they were buried on the bench. Why do you think there is talk of Murphy to Cleveland?

    So whats the alternative? Another 38 win season? Were we really that happy with those the last few years? But because now we might win 20 games its so much worse?

    How? Really? If weve got no chance, then we got no chance. Instead of dealing with all the crap we are dealing with now, why not think about this?

    At the start of 2010 watching Wall, Rush, Granger, Hans, and Hibbert. Then throw D. Jones, Dunleavy, AJ Price, Head, S. Jones, and McRoberts into the mix. Maybe Lorbek for good measure in the next year or so.

    And of course a brand new coach. And we havent really any idea who we might be able to obtain when we unload the expirings of Murphy/Ford. But we will get something one way or another that is valuable. Whether through trade or the ensuing capspace.

    Patience.

    If you liked that little 5 game win streak, that should serve as a taste of things to come. With significant additions. And watching that team is only about a year away.

    Just need a little patience. To allow these things to all play out. Its been like a 5 year process. And its about over.

    Whats another few months?

    Patience, I say. Patience.
    I think we agree on this general trajectory in terms of the long-term (or now near-future) plan. It's necessary, but really there is no other option. We're trapped by our personnel and financials into this way or the highway.

    We need the top 5 (hopefully top 3) pick this off season. That is essential IMO. The subtleties are where we have some divergence. I don't think Hibbert is better than a solid backup top ceiling. So he does not address our gaping inside problems UB has so accurately labeled as the worst in the league. A top-notch PG is not easy to come by by an means so that issue continues to be a major challenge.

    Outside Granger, IMO, we don't have another legit NBA contender starter on this team so this great magic we're supposed to work with the exprirings better yield serious talent results. Personally, I don't want to see Murphy, Dunleavy, or Ford on this team once we get through the expiring window. If these guys were worth a damn, they could have at least propelled us to a playoff spot in the JV EC over the past three years. I, for one, am tired of this finesse, passive, porous D trend on the roster.

    The top tier pick is needed, but even that's no given to pan out. Hope the regime does this right. Multiple legit power players inside and a real PG are both on the shopping list even with our alleged young future core of the moment.
    I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerblue View Post
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    I am not for tanking but I am for playing the young players to see what they can do. I recall when Smits first came into the league it took him a few years to turn into a good player. He was never the defender or rebounder a 7'4 guy should have been. But he was great for this franchise. I predict the same for Roy once he learns to play in this league. As for OB the season is over the the Pacers. I see him playing the vets to try and save his job. He needs to see what the young guys can do to see if indeed they are our future.
    IMO Smits was significantly more agile than Hibbert. Couldn't jump or sprint, but he had decent hands, footwork, agility and enough "quickness". I think Roy is athletically inferior to even Rik. He also doesn't have near the shooting touch in close and the two inch height differential is not insignificant. Hibbert is too robotic.
    I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

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  16. #11
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    Tick, tock, tick, tock...by the all star break, I'm guessing.

    I think he lost the team a few weeks back. Plus, I agree about the leadership vaccum...That's a BIG problem.
    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...nce-stephenson
    "But, first, let us now praise famous moments, because something happened Tuesday night in Indianapolis that you can watch a lifetime’s worth of professional basketball and never see again. There was a brief, and very decisive, and altogether unprecedented, outburst of genuine officiating, and it was directed at the best player in the world, and that, my dear young person, simply is not done."

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    IMO Smits was significantly more agile than Hibbert. Couldn't jump or sprint, but he had decent hands, footwork, agility and enough "quickness". I think Roy is athletically inferior to even Rik. He also doesn't have near the shooting touch in close and the two inch height differential is not insignificant. Hibbert is too robotic.
    Ahhh, that because he played goalie in soccer growing up. I never thought rik as agile. I think once roy has been around he may have an easier time at beating guys to a spot on the floor. And if he stays robotic when can call him Mr. Roboto.

  18. #13
    Member Speed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    So many things running through my head that I want to respond to. And maybe this is in a moment of weakness and I admit I might regret saying this later. I don't like Roy Hibbert as a player. I think he works hard, tries to play hard, is a nice guy, but I think he is a huge liability defensively and I have real doubts he'll ever turn into anything more than a backup center and I don't understand why most of you in this forum for some reason think is really good or could be good down the road. The common refrain is all he needs is a big man coach or a head coach who will seemingly play him no matter what he does on the court. I ask myself why do so many of you either think he is worth the effort and time. I think probably the hope of having a real center might be clouding your viewpoint. I'll admit I don't want a "real center" at least not like him. The game has changed, centers aren't what they used to be. Honestly, watching Roy try to play basketball drives me crazy. I wish we never had drafted him.
    I feel this way too, but for Roy "as is", not for what he could become. Let me explain.

    Roy "as is" was attacked by a gimp JO as part of the Heat's plan last night. It's a good plan, he has given up near career or career highs in the majority of match ups all year. From Kendrick Perkins to Andrew Bogut, he's looked terrible.

    I was willing to give a pass until now, since, I think it was all about expectations or managing them with Roy. It's really the same for the 2009/2010 Pacers for me. I didn't expect much from Roy, initially, so when he made a nice offensive post move or blocked a shot, it was all Roses and Gumdrops.

    Now looking at a body of work, he's not nearly ready to be a starting center because he can't guard his position. It doesn't matter if it's a big strong center or the new NBA version of center who is quick and can shoot from the perimeter. Roy either gets scored on or fouls. He's just not ready.

    Now, I say just not ready, cuz I think he's young and willing and 7'2", so I think he absolutely can become viable defensively (this means not horrific) and a force offensively.

    The Rik Smits comparison has been made often, so ya, I agree, Rik Smits, but a different style.

    I think Roy will come full circle, eventually, maybe as soon as next year when it comes to expectations. Like, Rik, he's moving into that realm where we see all of the liabilities he brings and forgetting the pluses.

    So I'd say with Roy's work ethic and I think factoring in his age and the old addage that big guys take longer to develop. I think you have to stick with him.

    With that said, you have to manage expectations and know he's never going to be a really good one on one defender, but if he can make the jump to "okay", then he has alot to offer, in exactly a Rik Smits sort of way.

    The parallels to those old teams are interesting. I think they have an Antonio Davis type now in Hansbrough, but they still need a Dale. Then you can start to see some of the value in Roy like they started to see the value in Rik.

    Lastly, Roy is almost unplayable right now by how he's getting beat like a drum defensively. I acknowledge this completely, but like someone said, you have to play him if you believe he really can be part of the future, so that he can figure it out. It's just really painful to watch him get scored on so easily, so often, right now, imo.

    I'll just go with the 7'2" kid who seemingly works his butt off and already has and NBA offensive game. I think it's worth the investment in time, at least, for now.

    It's not like there are a bunch of options anyway, now that sounds like a ringing endorsement.

    Side note for Buck: be glad you didn't see the last two games, it was embarrassing.
    Last edited by Speed; 12-28-2009 at 09:22 AM.

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  20. #14

    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    I just see things different with Hibbert. Yes, he is terrible, but only when he is on the floor with Murphy and Dunleavy. Put him out there with Tyler/Jeff, DJones and Brandon Rush, he starts looking like a bonafide darn good center...

    How much of his shortcomings is the horrible defense of other players? I dunno, but I really think alot of the badness we see can be attributed to him being out there with Murphy. That isn't good either, you want your players to be able to excel no matter who they play with on the court. But Hibbert is not that guy. I still think he can be really good, but only if we have the right combinations to put with him on the floor.

    Peck mentioned the JO effect with Murphy where the team has to alter it's defense and offense to accomodate his game, and I think the same could be said with Hibbert. The difference between the two is, I believe Hibbert can actually be a good player when that happens, good on defense even.

    About Dunleavy being the vocal leader and what not. I think there is something to that as well. Earning that priveledge could be in question, but the other angle is they are losing so bad and so often, there is a bit of resentment.

    I also feel that DJones started the season so strong and was always talking, not just talking but going out of his way to always get others to talk on defense. You watch some of the first games he is constanty making chatter signs with his hands trying to get his teammates to talk. He was definately the on the court general, and it was working. I think there was some power struggle of who is the alpha dog on the team (just guessing) and DJones backed down from his on the court leader role. Or maybe our coach started playing the horrible defensive lineups and he just lost interest in even trying (more probable, and dissapointing)

    There are a few instances where I saw that leadership role slip from him, One worth mentioning that got me upset was the game where Jim had been ejected and Lester took over, Djones took a quick shot or something Lester didn't like, even though the Pacers had some momementum building and yanked DJ out of the game. That was a huge momentum killer and the Pacers promplty went into the tank. DJones was quite pissed off about it too. So was I. At any rate. the guy who is DJones now is not the same player he was at the start of the season, it has been sad to watch as his leadership role disspeared. So maybe there is a bit of alpha dog resentment going on there with Dunleavy? /shrug


    The natural leader of this team should be DJones, but I just can't see him returning to that role until we have a new coach that tells him that and the rest of our players acknowledge it, or after all this if he even wants to be that guy on this team. I am doubtful it will ever happen, but who knows. I liked what I saw when he was taking control though.
    Last edited by PaceBalls; 12-28-2009 at 10:07 AM.

  21. #15
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    So many things running through my head that I want to respond to. And maybe this is in a moment of weakness and I admit I might regret saying this later. I don't like Roy Hibbert as a player. I think he works hard, tries to play hard, is a nice guy, but I think he is a huge liability defensively and I have real doubts he'll ever turn into anything more than a backup center and I don't understand why most of you in this forum for some reason think is really good or could be good down the road. The common refrain is all he needs is a big man coach or a head coach who will seemingly play him no matter what he does on the court. I ask myself why do so many of you either think he is worth the effort and time. I think probably the hope of having a real center might be clouding your viewpoint. I'll admit I don't want a "real center" at least not like him. The game has changed, centers aren't what they used to be. Honestly, watching Roy try to play basketball drives me crazy. I wish we never had drafted him.

    Having said that - I've never liked Troy as a player. What would we ever need in a slow, unathletic, slow, short, slow, non-energy player who has an extremely limited skill and talent set. And there are time he's our best offensive player - think about that for a moment - right now there are times when he's our best offensive player. Having said how much I dislke Troy, I think blaming him for the record of the team is just wrong, citing the team's record with him in the lineup vs with him out of the lineup, I think has no basis in reality. What is our record with Mike in the lineup. What is our record with Ford starting, what is our record on Fridays. That 5 game winning streak was meaningless and IMO meant nothing in that "recapturing the magic of the 5 game streak" is not meaningful at all. That was a clear aberation. Some of you sem to be impling that if we just bench Troy the glory days of the 5-game win streak return. I think that is laughable.

    Worst though is the combination of Troy and Roy together that is IMO a hidieous combination. Atlhough I do understand that O'Brien has few other options. Solomon is struggling, Tyler is a rookie who is limited in the minutes he can play (at least until recently. Jeff being out is hurting us more than anyone is willing to admit.

    Let me touch on O'Brien. I have not seen the past two games, so I don't know, but he may veruy well have lost the team and if he can't get it back then he does need to be replaced. Getting blown out to average teams is not the way to continue the season. And no losing by 20 points every game has little do to with lack of talent. That shows a lack of effort. Losing close games, including losing large and small leads, that shows a lack of talent, not being able to win the game in the clutch shows a lack of talent, but getting blown out most every game shows lack of effort, heart, and an unwillingness to work.

    The only time I've really enjoyed this team this season was when Jeff and Tyler were on the court together. If Jeff were healthy and if Tyler had two more years of experience - we could really win some games with those two guys on the court together.

    I say this without any fear of being wrong, the Pacers big players as a group are the worst in the NBA.

    So you can replace the coach, and the blowout losses likely will end, but after the customary honeymoon period, the losses will resume. This roster stinks
    I am getting so angry over this age of computer hackers and identity theft.

    Jim, this is Uncle Buck's name and avatar. You are NOT allowed to use it! Uncle Buck is one of our favorite members here, and it is just plain unforgivable for you to make your arguments through his unwitting handle and avatar.

    Just a shame.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  22. #16
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I don't like Roy Hibbert as a player. I think he works hard, tries to play hard, is a nice guy, but I think he is a huge liability defensively and I have real doubts he'll ever turn into anything more than a backup center and I don't understand why most of you in this forum for some reason think is really good or could be good down the road. The common refrain is all he needs is a big man coach or a head coach who will seemingly play him no matter what he does on the court. I ask myself why do so many of you either think he is worth the effort and time. I think probably the hope of having a real center might be clouding your viewpoint. I'll admit I don't want a "real center" at least not like him. The game has changed, centers aren't what they used to be. Honestly, watching Roy try to play basketball drives me crazy. I wish we never had drafted him.
    Several quick points:

    - Roy was a key anchor to the five game win streak. He provided double doubles and was effective on defense, blocking a number of shots.

    - Why was he effective—effectiveness that led to wins—during that streak? Because Roy is a guy who builds on confidence. The more confident, the better he is. The less confident, the worse. I have no doubt in my mind that JOB has destroyed his confidence. Pulls him whenever he makes a couple of fouls. Plays him consistently only when Foster and Troy are injured. Pulls him when he makes a mistake. I've made comments about "blinky" Roy. If you'll notice, he blinks when he's unconfident, and he doesn't when things are going well.

    - Roy can be rather excellent on offense. When he is feeling it, he can't be stopped by anybody down low, including Dwight Howard and Tim Duncan. Complain as much as you want about his defense, this quality of Roy's on the offensive end is a real asset. And JOB does NOT take advantage of it. If it weren't for Dunleavy, Roy would hardly see the ball down low these days.

    - Roy does an excellent job of seeing the post down low when he has the ball. Our motion offense currently sucks, so JOB is not taking advantage of this strong quality either.

    - The more I write about his, the angrier I get. Roy Hibbert can be very effective on BOTH ends of the floor, proved it during the five game winning streak when JOB did not have the luxury of ruining Roy's confidence by benching him whenever he made a mistake, and has not had that kind of emotional and confidence support since the win streak win he averaged double doubles. Hibbert has tremendous potential, has already demonstrated it, and Jim O'Stubborn has pi$$ed away a great opportunity to build on it this year.

    - If JOB shares your view of Roy being not that good, with not much of a future, then Larry Bird has not us all a great disservice by not firing JOB a year ago.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  23. #17
    We need John Wall. Thesterovic's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    I'm so sick of this team. We need new players, personnel, and the whole nine yards. We need physicality and fight. And I'm damned sure we won't get it from Mr. Stat Sheets Troy Murphy and TJ Ford.

    Seth was dead on a while back during the summer that TJ and Watson weren't going to cut it, and AJ would have to step up. Unfortunately, JOB will never notice.

    I think if you made JOB play 2K10 with a permanent lineup of Price, Rush, Jones, Tyler, and Roy he would vomit, but somehow he's up by 15 only to sub in Troy, Mike, TJ, and Watson to kill it.
    "I keep wondering the same thing. Last week they had the 4th worst record in the league, had an 11.9 percent chance of winning the lottery and were in line to land a franchise type player like Derrick Favors or DeMarcus Cousins. This week? They have a 1.7 percent chance of winning the lottery, have the 8th worst record and are in line to draft Cole Aldrich or Greg Monroe. Way to go Jim O'Brien. Rest Danny Granger the rest of the season (if it isn't too late) and give Josh McRoberts lots of minutes. That ought to do it." - Chad Ford on winning meaningless games

    Way to go Jim, you may have just put our franchise back another 4+ years.

  24. #18

    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    [QUOTE=Thingfish;934711]



    the guy who is DJones now is not the same player he was at the start of the season, it has been sad to watch as his leadership role disspeared. QUOTE]


    I couldn't agree more. He made me feel the loss of Jack wasn't that bad then. He's a shell of what he had previously been. This made me revert back to feeling that Jack was the "glue" with this team and how much of a loss he is.

  25. #19

    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    - If JOB shares your view of Roy being not that good, with not much of a future, then Larry Bird has not us all a great disservice by not firing JOB a year ago.

    Bird did an even bigger disservice and managerial blunder by picking up O'Brien's team option when he did. Now in order to get rid of Jimmy, Herb will have to spend millions paying for Bird's blunder.

    The more I think about it the more I want Bird to be like Zeke and McHale... have to coach what he's put together.

  26. #20
    A happy Roy is a good Roy DaveP63's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    Hibbert looks like crap most of the time because he is exposed by the near total lack of perimeter defense. He moves to the driving player from wherever he is on the floor, tries to block the shot (while everyone else stands ten feet away and watches) and boom...Instant foul.
    http://www.grantland.com/blog/the-tr...nce-stephenson
    "But, first, let us now praise famous moments, because something happened Tuesday night in Indianapolis that you can watch a lifetime’s worth of professional basketball and never see again. There was a brief, and very decisive, and altogether unprecedented, outburst of genuine officiating, and it was directed at the best player in the world, and that, my dear young person, simply is not done."

  27. #21
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....



    No need to quote such a long post (make the page that much longer) if there are no specific responses to be made. Thanks.



    Morbidly depressing

    But accurate and honest

    I dont know what to say other than this is by far the worst state the Pacers have been in since Reggies rookie year
    Sittin on top of the world!

  28. #22
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    I am making a new personal rule. from now on I will not consider any discussion, argument, or opinions that contain the words "five game winning streak" mainly because I think it is of no value. To isolate 5 games of a long 82 game NBA season is IMO absurd

  29. #23
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    Couldn't jump or sprint, but he had decent hands, footwork, agility and enough "quickness".
    Dunno about agility or quickness, but Roy's hands and footwork are just fine.
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  31. #24
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I am getting so angry over this age of computer hackers and identity theft.

    Jim, this is Uncle Buck's name and avatar. You are NOT allowed to use it! Uncle Buck is one of our favorite members here, and it is just plain unforgivable for you to make your arguments through his unwitting handle and avatar.

    Just a shame.
    Welcome to Pacers Digest! New around here? Here are three tips for making the forum a great place to talk about Pacers basketball.

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    • Create an ignore list. I know it may seem unneighborly. But you're here to talk about the Pacers, not argue with someone who's just looking for an argument. Most of the regular users on here make use (at least occasionally) of the "Ignore" feature. Just go to "Settings" -> "Edit Ignore List" and add the names.

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  32. #25

    Default Re: Odd thoughts while lost in the wilderness....

    I'm starting to think that tanking this season is quite possibly the best thing this team could do right now. If they get a top 3 pick you can bet we'll be drafting a talented PG who can make every one look alot better next season. Thus increasing Murphy, and Dun's value. Which may allow us to bring in a great player to compliment Granger. Also getting a young stud PG in the draft will help bring in a competent coach. I mean if you are going to end up tanking the season, this is the season to tank. You certainly wouldn't want to have a terrible year next season, that woul elminate any FA possibilities.

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