View Poll Results: If Jarrett Jack was our starting PG, T.J. Ford was traded and Earl Watson (still signed) backed him

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Thread: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

  1. #1
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    Default '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    At this time this year, we're 9-20.

    At this time last year, we were 10-19.

    Both are nearly identical and both are awful records.

    Just wanted to share the up to date info.

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    Indy's #1 Hockey Fan Peter_sixtyftsixin's Avatar
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    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    Yeah but last year we weren't getting blown out like this and the players seemed to listen to O'Brien.

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    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    they were also actually fun to watch
    and they tried

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    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    Personally, this year and last year aren't comparable to me at all.

    Last year at this time:

    1) The team was likable. Jack quickly became one of my favorite players because of his all out hustle and leadership. Quisy was also playing really well. He actually led us in scoring with 28 in the last game(12/26/08). He was the Robin to Danny's Batman in the beginning of the season.

    2) Passion.Pride.Pacers actually stood for something. They fought hard till the end of every game, regardless of opponent.

    3) Granger was on a tear, quickly making a name for himself as one of the better players in the league.

    This year at this time:

    1) I speak for myself here, but I can't relate to any of these players. Rush and Roy (other than Granger) are about the only players left I enjoy watching. The others just feel like cheaper, temporary replacements to what we had last year.

    2) This team is not even competitive, getting blown out on the regular, and very hard to watch. Last year, at least you could say the effort was there. This year, the only effort being shown is in losing, because I'm pretty sure you have to try to lose by 40.

    3) Granger literally has a tear, and has yet to play at the level he shown he's capable of.


    Crazy how records can look similar, but in reality the team is going in completely different directions.

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    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    Quote Originally Posted by Trophy View Post
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    At this time this year, we're 9-20.

    At this time last year, we were 10-19.

    Both are nearly identical and both are awful records.

    Just wanted to share the up to date info.


    I looked in my records last night to check how much better we were last year than this year. When I saw we only had won 1 more game last year at this time, I started thinking about it. Why didn't I remember? I came to the conclusion it was the way we were playing last year vs how we are playing this year. The team was interesting, exciting, and entertaining to watch even while losing. Their "D" was terrible, but they could score points. They weren't being blown out of games, but lost games in the last 5 minutes. This team seems to get blown out in the 1st 5 minutes thus digging a hugh hole they can't climb out of which makes it hard to have much interest in watching them play.

    Here are some other interesting facts of last year vs this year in 1st 29 games.


    17 games opposition scored a 100 + pts in losses BOTH years.

    In those 17 losses the average score by the opposition last year was 110 pts and 103 pts this year. Difference was approx 7 points.

    In those 17 losses to the opposition the Pacers last year average score was 102 points and this year it is 97 points. A difference of approx 5 points.


    In those 17 losses of last year vs this year, the Pacers held the opposition to approx 7 points less this year while scoring approx 5 points less this year.

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    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    I put up a poll question to this thread. I'm curious to see people's opinions.

    UPDATE (1/4): This season - 10-23, Last season - 12-21

    EDIT: Full poll question - If Jarrett Jack was our starting PG, T.J. Ford was traded and Earl Watson (still signed) backed him, would we be better, worse, or about the same?
    Last edited by Trophy; 01-04-2010 at 05:15 PM.

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    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    i say better....while t.j. may have more overall pg talent. jack is a better overall pg.... jack is tougher, better defender and leader.

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    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    Some people act like Jarrett Jack is Jesus on this board. The man was not that good, and he certainly wouldn't fix any of our problems.

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    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    Quote Originally Posted by JGray View Post
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    Some people act like Jarrett Jack is Jesus on this board. The man was not that good, and he certainly wouldn't fix any of our problems.
    i'm not saying he's the best thing since sliced bread but the poll was between jack and t.j. and he's better than t.j.............. simply put.

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    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    Quote Originally Posted by sportfireman View Post
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    i'm not saying he's the best thing since sliced bread but the poll was between jack and t.j. and he's better than t.j.............. simply put.
    No he's not. He might be better for this team than TJ is, but talent wise TJ is ahead of Jack, just look at his stats with the Raptors and Bucks.

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    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    Quote Originally Posted by JGray View Post
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    Some people act like Jarrett Jack is Jesus on this board. The man was not that good, and he certainly wouldn't fix any of our problems.
    Jarrett Jack may not be the best PG in the league, but he was a much better fit as our starting PG than T.J. is/was. He was probably one solution to our PG troubles. Both he and Earl are 2 PGs that could've helped us if both were here and T.J. was not.

    A PG rotation of Jack, Watson and Price who we can squeeze some time would really be the missing piece to our PG puzzle.

    It's just an absolute shame that we just let Jack walk away. A risky move would be to match Toronto's large offer and trade T.J. with Jack here and if that works out, we bring in Earl, but oh well.

  15. #12
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    Jack seems to be a much better "straw to stir the drink" than TJ Ford ever was. That counts for something.

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    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    Quote Originally Posted by JGray View Post
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    No he's not. He might be better for this team than TJ is, but talent wise TJ is ahead of Jack, just look at his stats with the Raptors and Bucks.
    We're not a team of players having "skills". We a PG who can spread out the whole floor.

    This isn't about any individual speaking of TJ, this is about the team.

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    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    Quote Originally Posted by JGray View Post
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    No he's not. He might be better for this team than TJ is, but talent wise TJ is ahead of Jack, just look at his stats with the Raptors and Bucks.
    what team is the poll for again????????

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    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    The Pacers would be better with Jack, regardless of whether TJ is gone or not, and especially with Watson backing him up. Jack was a leader and a glue guy who helped make things work OK even when they shouldn't have last year.

    That said, would he have us winning any more games this year? He might have later in the season if we actually get healthy, but not really any so far. We would be playing games a little closer overall, though, and there would be a little more positive energy around the team with him here, in my opinion.

  19. #16
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    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    This stat tells the whole story of this year's team

    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...-insider_N.htm

    Fifteen of the Indiana Pacers' 23 losses were by double digits (65%); for the Minnesota Timberwolves, 18 of 28 (64%); the New Jersey Nets, 19 of 30 (63%); the Golden State Warriors, 13 of 23 (57%); and the Wizards, 12 of 21 (57%).


    The Pacers have a higher % of their losses decided by double figures than any team in the NBA. Last year they had 13 double figure losses the entire season 28% - vs 15 already 65%
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-05-2010 at 08:52 AM.

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  21. #17
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    This stat tells the whole story of this year's team

    http://www.usatoday.com/sports/baske...-insider_N.htm

    Fifteen of the Indiana Pacers' 23 losses were by double digits (65%); for the Minnesota Timberwolves, 18 of 28 (64%); the New Jersey Nets, 19 of 30 (63%); the Golden State Warriors, 13 of 23 (57%); and the Wizards, 12 of 21 (57%).


    The Pacers have a higher % of their losses decided by double figures than any team in the NBA. Last year they had 13 double figure losses the entire season - vs 15 already
    What does that tell us?
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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  22. #18
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    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    This stat seems more appropriate:

    Granger...not playing (hurt)
    Murphy...not playing (hurt and hurt again)
    Foster...not playing (hurt)
    Dun...not playing well (hurt and no conditioning)
    Hans...not playing (hurt and hurt again)
    Ford...not playing (sucks)

    Rush...not playing as hoped
    Hibbert...still learning
    Watson...plays hard, but just not that good
    D. Jones...plays hard, but just not that good
    S. Jones...plays hard, but just not that good
    Price...plays hard, but a rookie and still learning

    All the rationalization in the world won't account for the current situation any more than the facts listed above.

  23. #19
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    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    What does that tell us?
    We are a god-awful team.

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  25. #20
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    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    Not as much as you would think...

    for example, if 100% healthy and conditioned and together through training camp, I think these players could win some ball games. Sadly, I don't think we'll ever know.

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  27. #21
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    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    I put the same, because I think Earl Watson does a pretty good job of replacing Jack's abilities and distributes the ball better.

    The real issue is whether TJ is getting lots of minutes. We're better with Jack over TJ and we're better with Earl over TJ. This year, we may even have an advantage if AJ Price starts to develop well.

    I'm not sure Jack had that many fans when we were 10-19. He really struggled the first part of the year, then came on real strong. Who knows? The same thing could happen to this team. I can see Price, Hans, Hibbert, Rush and Dun as players who could suddenly improve and launch us to a better record.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  28. #22

    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    Quote Originally Posted by UncleBuck
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    This stat tells the whole story of this year's team: . . . The Pacers have a higher % of their losses decided by double figures than any team in the NBA.
    Quote Originally Posted by BBall
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    What does that tell us?
    Quote Originally Posted by Adam1987
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    We are a god-awful team.


    EDIT:
    UncleBuck has written several times that the wide losing margins are evidence of lack of effort. Losing games by a few points, he says, can be explained by a lack of talent. But teams lose by huge margins because they simply aren't trying.

    That's what I think he's suggesting.
    Last edited by Putnam; 01-05-2010 at 08:52 AM.
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    It all dries up and blows away
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    But they never had much use for me
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  29. #23
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    UncleBuck has written several times that the wide losing margins are evidence of lack of talent. Losing games by a few points, he says, can be explained by a lack of effort or focus. But teams lose by huge margins because they simply can't compete with NBA talent.

    That's what I think he's suggesting.
    I am sensing some confusion. LOL

    In general terms being blown-out shows a lack of effort. In general, effort can keep a team in games (like last years team) - but talent is needed to actually win the close games. Last year was a perfect example of this - effort, chemistry, coaching (yes I am serious) kept the Pacers in most of the games, but they lost a lot of the games because they didn't have the talent necessary to win the games at the end. In the last 5 minutes of a close game and in playoffs games is when talent is necessary offensively and defensively to actually win the game. That is why Lebron takes over in the 4th quarter. When the defense lockes in at the end of a close game, you need that extra talented player to pull the game out, or you need that great defensive player to stop that best player or block the shot to save the game.

    Of course, my theroy can easily be argued with and it has with some success. In my defense I am talking about in general. A certain talent level is necessary in order to be able to compete, but I think that is assumed that every NBA team has a certain talent level. Obviously if 5 of us go out on the court to play the Lakers and we play harder than any group of 5 ever has in the history of the NBA we would still lose by 100 pts.

    Hope my point is clear

  30. #24
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    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I am sensing some confusion. LOL

    In general terms being blown-out shows a lack of effort. In general, effort can keep a team in games (like last years team) - but talent is needed to actually win the close games. Last year was a perfect example of this - effort, chemistry, coaching (yes I am serious) kept the Pacers in most of the games, but they lost a lot of the games because they didn't have the talent necessary to win the games at the end. In the last 5 minutes of a close game and in playoffs games is when talent is necessary offensively and defensively to actually win the game. That is why Lebron takes over in the 4th quarter. When the defense lockes in at the end of a close game, you need that extra talented player to pull the game out, or you need that great defensive player to stop that best player or block the shot to save the game.

    Of course, my theroy can easily be argued with and it has with some success. In my defense I am talking about in general. A certain talent level is necessary in order to be able to compete, but I think that is assumed that every NBA team has a certain talent level. Obviously if 5 of us go out on the court to play the Lakers and we play harder than any group of 5 ever has in the history of the NBA we would still lose by 100 pts.

    Hope my point is clear
    So we had effort last year but not this year? So what is that telling us?

    EDIT: You might be explaining it perfectly well but I'm just dense and not seeing it.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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  31. #25

    Default Re: '09/'10 vs. '08/'09

    I'm sorry, Buck. I knew you'd made the distinction, but I was remembering it wrong. I wasn't meaning to question your point, but only to quote it and I got your point backwards.

    I went back and modified my earlier post to reflect the point as you've made it. Sorry for misremembering, and for confusing the thread
    ..
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    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

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