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Thread: Which is more important

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Which is more important

    Spacing or motion on offense?

    Yes I know both have great value but if you could only have one be far superior to the other which would you prefer and why?


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  2. #2
    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is more important

    Motion = Reggie Miller
    Spacing = Jermaine O'Neal


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  3. #3

    Default Re: Which is more important

    While Los Angeles' point is valid, I think with the ridicluous pro-dribble penetration rules we have today, proper spacing is more important.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Which is more important

    Motion.

    Even if your spacing is good, 4 guys are still just standing there. Which isn't going to help ball movement or anything else. You're relying solely on 1 guy (the ball handler) to create for everyone else.

    Sounds kinda like what the 76ers did in the old Iverson days ....

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  5. #5
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is more important

    Motion. MOTION. MOTION!

    Motion can get the necessary space.

    You can have great spacing but it doesn't mean a thing if your not open.

    Motion can get you open, spacing doesn't necessarily mean you are open.

    Plus a team in motion is fun to watch and hard to guard.

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  7. #6
    Member Alabama-Redneck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is more important

    Both- you can't be successful with just one.

    If you have motion and no spacing, people will be bumping into one another unless you run your motion 30' from the basket and what good would that be.

    If you have spacing and no motion, people will be standing around the 3-point line waiting for the ball. (sound familar ?)

    It's like asking which is more important-the gas pedal or the brake pedal. You need both.

    I would rather be the hammer than the nail

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  9. #7
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is more important

    Depends entirely on who your players are. You cannot answer it otherwise. If you have a Lebron James, Kobe, Wade, or a post player like Dwight Howard, in his prime Shaq - then spacing is more important without question. (same thing when you had JO and Artest both playing well - run the offense through those two guys, space the court and respond to the defense). With great players who creates double teams you don't want a bunch of random motion as that will allow the defense to control the great player more easily and also make it easier for the defense to get a lesser player to shoot the ball.

    OK, if you don't have one of the great offensive players then you need motion (especially in this era of allowing more of a zone defense). Really though spacing and some motion are always needed, they often go hand in hand.

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  11. #8

    Default Re: Which is more important

    'bama and Buck are certainly right. But Will Galen answers Peck's question best. And I think LA gets credit for seeing right through to the essence of what Peck was probably asking.

    I'm a less sophisticated viewer of the game than many around here, but I know that watching a team in motion is much more enjoyable.
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  12. #9
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    Default Re: Which is more important

    Thats why I HATE watching Orlando!
    "I keep wondering the same thing. Last week they had the 4th worst record in the league, had an 11.9 percent chance of winning the lottery and were in line to land a franchise type player like Derrick Favors or DeMarcus Cousins. This week? They have a 1.7 percent chance of winning the lottery, have the 8th worst record and are in line to draft Cole Aldrich or Greg Monroe. Way to go Jim O'Brien. Rest Danny Granger the rest of the season (if it isn't too late) and give Josh McRoberts lots of minutes. That ought to do it." - Chad Ford on winning meaningless games

    Way to go Jim, you may have just put our franchise back another 4+ years.

  13. #10
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    Default Re: Which is more important

    I think everybody makes great points, but when you say "motion", I think of a bunch of guys running around having no idea where they are or where they're supposed to be; iow, I've seen way too many bad "motion" teams over the years. You say "spacing", and I think of a well coached team. Period. They may not be any good, but at least they know what they're doing.

    That said, good motion is truely a joy to watch, maybe because it is so rare.
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  14. #11
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    Default Re: Which is more important

    I think everybody makes great points, but when you say "motion", I think of a bunch of guys running around having no idea where they are or where they're supposed to be; iow, I've seen way too many bad "motion" teams over the years. You say "spacing", and I think of a well coached team. Period. They may not be any good, but at least they know what they're doing.

    That said, good motion is truely a joy to watch, maybe because it is so rare.
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    Default Re: Which is more important

    I watched Bob Knight both during IU games and a lot of his weekend shows on channel 4 where he basically lectured about the fundamentals of the game and game strategy, so I guess I have to say that I have been heavily influenced early in life to believe that motion is the basis for good offense, especially in the half court.

    Motion, not just for the sake of motion, but with purpose. And it must be coupled with consistently good ball movement to produce the best overall result possible.

    Without motion, spacing becomes either difficult or nearly pointless, especially without good ball movement, which is what we generally have had on the Pacers this year until Dunleavy returned in my opinion.

    Spacing is only effective in and of itself if you have players who excel at iso moves, especially without ball movement or an inside out game. We really don't have that, especially with Granger out, unless you count TJ. Otherwise, the type of spacing game we play makes us easier to guard and reduces our effectiveness on offense.

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  17. #13

    Default Re: Which is more important

    Here is the answer to the Pacers problem. They are great when it comes to spacing. Murphy out on the 3 point line with Dun, Rush, Ford and Hibbert in the interior. So they are well spaced out. The problem with the Pacers is that they just stand there and pass the ball around the perimeter. The Pacers are a terrible motion team and for them to succeed they have to become much more motion oriented. They just dont have the athletes to break defenders down with man to man. Motion for this team is more important, but in fairness spacing may be more important for others.

  18. #14
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    Default Re: Which is more important

    Quote Originally Posted by Thesterovic View Post
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    Thats why I HATE watching Orlando!
    I've been trying for a year or two to figure out why I hate Orlando. You just answered the question.
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  19. #15
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is more important

    If I have to pick between spacing and motion, my choice is a top notch point guard.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Which is more important

    Motion, without thought.

    More movement means more production. Proof of this is that we are much more fluid offensively when our best mover on offense, Dunleavy, is on the floor. Spacing is good, but it has nothing on moving the defense.

  21. #17

    Default Re: Which is more important

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I've been trying for a year or two to figure out why I hate Orlando. You just answered the question.
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    If I have to pick between spacing and motion, my choice is a top notch point guard.

    That makes two posts in a row without mention of the five-game win streak!
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  22. #18
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is more important

    We agree you want both, right?

    Which is more likely to give you the other? Is motion more likely to give you decent spacing, or is decent spacing more likely to give you motion?

    Seems like you'd want motion first.
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  23. #19
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    Default Re: Which is more important

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Spacing or motion on offense?

    Yes I know both have great value but if you could only have one be far superior to the other which would you prefer and why?
    Without yet reading the replies already posted,

    I would start off by saying you're correct in that you want/need both, so neither by itself will be all that you need in order to be effective.

    I could feel comfortable saying it really is pretty close to 50/50.

    However, I can envision spacing succeeding with less motion more easily than I can envision motion with poor spacing.

    I can see pick and roll plays where 3 other guys are in their "sweet spots" on the perimeter to force the defense to make the choice between helping on the P&R at the expense of leaving a good shooter open in his preferred position versus hoping you can stop it with just two players.

    I can see a 4-out offense feeding a low post scorer and again making the defense choose between helping on the post player at the expense of leaving a good shooter open or suffering the consequences of guarding him 1 on 1.

    And of course there's always the isolation play on the perimeter for your best scorers to take their man 1 on 1 while the others space the floor with their shooting ability/threat.

    With the right roster, you could just beat those 3 plays into the ground.

    However, the less able your talent is with regards to those scenarios, the more I think you need movement in order to have a chance at scoring.

    Maybe that word means different things to different people, but to me it can either mean off-ball movement and/or a lot of passing.

    I immediately think of a shooter coming off 2 to 3 screens a la Reggie Miller or Richard Hamilton.

    I think of the UCLA offense which always has weakside action to keep the defense honest and less focuses on the strong side of the floor.

    The triangle also has weakside action in this regard.

    Both of course have passing and cutting on the strong side.

    Any other offense I can mention will involve passing and moving. So obviously motion will play as important a role with them as spacing does.

    Ultimately I think the more elite talent you possess in the areas of 1 on 1 scoring, perimeter shooting, pick and roll execution, and low post scoring, the less motion you need as long as your execution level is very high through constant drilling/practicing.

    I believe that with those teams, you do those things and then take whatever you force the defense to give you if/when they try something different to stop you. Otherwise, if it's man to man defense, just execute with your talent.

    The less elite talent you have, the more everyone depends on one another, and the more you will have to lean on a team offense such as UCLA, triangle, princeton, etc.

    Teamwork is always important, but it's at a premium when the talent level drops.

  24. #20
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    Default Re: Which is more important

    Proper spacing is more important when running a set play. And IMO, running a set play you practice a million times is much less likely to result in silly turnovers and shaky guard play. But this free wheelin' headless chicken thing we got going just begs for it.

    Of course you need movement with purpose on offense. Motion is just people outsmarting themselves. IMO
    Last edited by Taterhead; 12-26-2009 at 01:14 PM.

  25. #21
    Pacer Pride, Colts Strong Kid Minneapolis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is more important

    Motion with purpose to create spacing.

  26. #22
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    Default Re: Which is more important

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    And I think LA gets credit for seeing right through to the essence of what Peck was probably asking.
    I think he's asking about Mike Dunleavy Jr. and Troy Murphy .

    I think the answer to the question depends on the personnel and the strategy.

    Motion becomes less of a necessity as your talent increases (*edit* as I now see Hicks points out). We need motion because we don't have a lot of players that can create good shots.

    We have the spacing (Troy) but it's ineffective because we don't use it properly. You can use space to establish and inside/out or outside/in game, but since we're not running offense out of the post or using backdoor cuts with passes from the high post, it becomes useless.

    I believe our team is built for spacing but is more reliant upon motion, hence the 4th quarter collapses the past 3 seasons.

  27. #23

    Default Re: Which is more important

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    I think he's asking about Mike Dunleavy Jr. and Troy Murphy .

    I think the answer to the question depends on the personnel and the strategy.

    Motion becomes less of a necessity as your talent increases (*edit* as I now see Hicks points out). We need motion because we don't have a lot of players that can create good shots.

    We have the spacing (Troy) but it's ineffective because we don't use it properly. You can use space to establish and inside/out or outside/in game, but since we're not running offense out of the post or using backdoor cuts with passes from the high post, it becomes useless.

    I believe our team is built for spacing but is more reliant upon motion, hence the 4th quarter collapses the past 3 seasons.
    So then I ask, is there ever a way we stop running "out of gas" or is it simply other teams outplay us in the 4th?

    Motion seems to be more important in the first three quarters to us right now. The 4th quarter seems to always be about spacing, and that's why we loose. It seems like there is constantly someone wide open for three somewhere on the court, for the other team. They catch one of our guys out of position and the other team gets better spacing. It's usually on a fast play that turns the tide for them late in the game.

    I see teams all the time using "movement with purpose" to get the win. I see it out of our squad as well, just rarely late in the game. Maybe our core players are still young and we are expecting too much out of them.

    I for one believe Hibbert may be our best option late in the 4th. The other four guys need to learn how to move with purpose out there and feed off of Roy. Most of the time they just stand there and watch him. Roy has really impressed me with his evolving post abilities, espescially taking it baseline.

    Roy gives us spacing, so we need movement around him. Until Granger gets back that is the only way to win IMO. TJ hurling up 3s when we only need 2s just isn't working. We need to run the offense through our best offensive weapon right now, Roy. I also don't see enough Hibbert/Hansboro lineups for my liking because I feel that puts us as close to 50/50 as we can be on spacing/movement in the post.

    Although I think Hansboro still isn't moving without the ball the way I want him to. Too many times he is standing there. He just seems like he is hitting a rookie wall. Kinda like his brain is going blank with all this new stuff he is learning and he is still trying to take it all in. I'd give him a shorter learning curve than most. I'd say after the All Star break he will be hitting his stride. Espescially when teams start laying down the last 5-10 games, I'd expect huge numbers.
    Last edited by Midcoasted; 12-26-2009 at 04:35 PM.

  28. #24
    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: Which is more important

    spacing and motion are counter-productive by definition. Which one is the most valuable depends entirely on which system you are running and what personnel you are using.

    If you're playing an inside-out game, like the 94-95 Rockets, spacing is as important as breathing air. But if you're running a system featuring players not quite as capable of scoring 1-on-1, ala Sacramento or Utah, you find the best passes you can get, and run a princeton offense that relies on brains rather than athleticism.

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