Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 51 to 75 of 103

Thread: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

  1. #51
    Member trey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    232
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by GuffeyRay View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Have you been watching the games? Roy is getting all of the minutes he can handle and Tyler is getting plenty of minutes considering he is coming off an injury. You act like Roy and Tyler are at the end of the bench not playing at all. Neither player is ready to play the entire game or even the biggest part of the game.
    No, I haven't been watching the games. But my guess is Roy only gets time because Foster is injured. And yes you're right they aren't ready to play the entire game or the biggest part of the game, THAT is why we should play them that much, to develop them, and yes we'll lose, but they will develop. Basically I agree with tanking but doing it in a productive way.

  2. #52
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Danberry
    Age
    54
    Posts
    11,482

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    UncleBuck's path is the one I should have taken. But I'm in so I'll go with it.

    <snip>
    BillS

    "Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
    - Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

  3. #53
    Banned
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Hendricks county, IN
    Posts
    125

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Boston didn't buy their way to a ring, and neither did the Lakers with regard to their most recent. Hell, they didn't even buy Kobe. That was a draft trade for a pretty good center.

    Boston collected a bunch of young promising players then traded them to various teams to get one much better player. They didn't buy anything. They drafted and traded for it.

    The same with the Lakers. They traded away their expiring contracts to a team bent on cutting salary and landed Pau.

    Thanks for helping my position.
    Bottom line teams regardles of how they acquire the star type players have to pay them what they could get on the open market and the Pacers and the Simons will not go down that path. If the Pacers ever win the title it will not be with a team of all stars, period.

  4. #54
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583
    Mood

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    As for the Lakers:

    2000, 2001, and 2002:

    Shaq was a free agent signing. Kobe was the #13 pick.

    2009:

    Kobe was the #13 pick, Gasol was acquired by primarily trading an expiring contract.

    Boston:

    Garnett was a trade, and the key piece was Al Jefferson (who was drafted by BOS at #15), Ray Allen was acquired in a trade for the #5 pick (the only time really sucking paid off, and had SEA not been willing to unload their star player, it could have easily been a lesser talent and of course a rookie at that, which hurts the title chances), Rondo was drafted at #21, Pierce was drafted at #10.

    So looking at both teams, the vast majority of how those title teams came together had nothing to do with sucking first.

  5. #55
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    20,925

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I don't think you can be convinced. I've told you why I know they are, but you don't believe me or you don't believe them, so there's no point in trying any further.
    All you told me is that they are two different people and that they say they want a championship badly.

    Obviously every team wants to win one, badly. How they do it is another topic.

    Actually, I like Bird and have defended him and his actions numerous times. But just saying they are different doesn't make it so.

  6. #56
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583
    Mood

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    As for San Antonio:

    Obviously sucking got them Tim Duncan, but you know what else did? LUCK. Boston, who sucked even worse, would have gotten him, but lost out in the lottery even with the worse record. So it's not like they were promised Tim Duncan all spring long.

    More importantly, they don't win the 2003, 2005, or 2007 titles without Manu Ginobili (picked #57) and Tony Parker (picked #28).

  7. #57
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    20,925

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by GuffeyRay View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Bottom line teams regardles of how they acquire the star type players have to pay them what they could get on the open market and the Pacers and the Simons will not go down that path. If the Pacers ever win the title it will not be with a team of all stars, period.
    Okay? They trade multiple players to match salaries. Obviously that's paying them market value.

    They aren't "buying" anything. They are paying the same amount as they would without said player.

    Even the "team" that won a ring, Detroit, had All-Stars. No team will ever win a championship without multiple All-Stars, period.

  8. #58

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by nerveghost View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Duke - a fine analogy, and it is nice to see someone having a little fun in the midst of this season.
    I enjoyed the Star Wars reference, but it was a terrible analogy, primarily because he mentions that Luke spent three years practicing his craft before taking a second crack at Vader. Luke was young, and needed experience before trying to unseat those in power.

    How much better did Yoda get over that time period? Oh, that's right, he died. Obi Wan wouldn't have improved much either. Neither, after those three years, would have been up to the task of tackling Vader.

    So, per your own analogy, the correct path is to play the young guys, remove any obstacles (Han Solo/Troy Murphy, Leia/Foster) preventing them from getting the experience they need, and hoping that over time they learn what they need to compete.

    Also, Luke didn't "win". For us to have a similar strategy, we'd have to somehow get a bye all the way to the Finals, while our enemies fight amongst themselves.

    Anyways, I don't support openly tanking, but I'd rather develop the young guys and lose a lot than bench them and lose a little. Winning is not an option with this squad.

    I'll leave you with a quote: "Hard work beats talent when talent refuses to work hard". Otherwise, we need some damn talent that's willing to work hard.

  9. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Eindar For This Useful Post:


  10. #59
    Denim Chicken duke dynamite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Bloomington
    Posts
    13,373
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perdu View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    No, I haven't been watching the games. But my guess is Roy only gets time because Foster is injured. And yes you're right they aren't ready to play the entire game or the biggest part of the game, THAT is why we should play them that much, to develop them, and yes we'll lose, but they will develop. Basically I agree with tanking but doing it in a productive way.
    Okay, let's play them to death. Fatigue them until they turn into old men their 4th or 5th season to where they will turn into Jeff Foster.

    Regardless of Foster's injuries, I think it's safe to say that Roy is the #1 option at center.

  11. #60
    Whale Shepherd cdash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    The Sprawl
    Age
    29
    Posts
    16,949

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    At this point, I'm happy if we win, and I'm not at all upset if we lose. I do think a high lottery pick would help us, and if the results on the court are bad enough, it might force Bird/Morway's hand to make some moves to get rid of guys that aren't working (Murphy, Ford). I think we all want what is best for the team, but we all have different ideas on how to get it done.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to cdash For This Useful Post:


  13. #61
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583
    Mood

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    All you told me is that they are two different people and that they say they want a championship badly.

    Obviously every team wants to win one, badly. How they do it is another topic.

    Actually, I like Bird and have defended him and his actions numerous times. But just saying they are different doesn't make it so.
    You're leaving out what I said.

    I didn't say "Well, Bird says so, so it's true" as you would suggest with your post.

    I said from top to bottom, anyone involved in the franchise, be it what they say to the press, in person, casually or formally, from Bird, Herb, Morway, to the people who work directly for them in primary positions, to the people who work for those people, the message is always the same. The goal is a championship. They all say the same thing, regardless of when/where you catch them to talk about it or hear them speak about it.

    I even attended an event where various folks in the org. met w/ potential future employees and interns, and they showed what they preach to those already working in PS&E/the Pacers, and it includes their biggest goals for the franchise. Of the handful of highest goals above all else, listed clearly in English, was to win the NBA championship.

    So no, don't tell me I'm just saying "Bird said it, so it must be so". That's false, misleading, and wrong.

  14. #62
    Denim Chicken duke dynamite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Bloomington
    Posts
    13,373
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I enjoyed the Star Wars reference, but it was a terrible analogy, primarily because he mentions that Luke spent three years practicing his craft before taking a second crack at Vader. Luke was young, and needed experience before trying to unseat those in power.

    How much better did Yoda get over that time period? Oh, that's right, he died. Obi Wan wouldn't have improved much either. Neither, after those three years, would have been up to the task of tackling Vader.

    So, per your own analogy, the correct path is to play the young guys, remove any obstacles (Han Solo/Troy Murphy, Leia/Foster) preventing them from getting the experience they need, and hoping that over time they learn what they need to compete.

    Also, Luke didn't "win". For us to have a similar strategy, we'd have to somehow get a bye all the way to the Finals, while our enemies fight amongst themselves.

    Anyways, I don't support openly tanking, but I'd rather develop the young guys and lose a lot than bench them and lose a little. Winning is not an option with this squad.

    I'll leave you with a quote: "Hard work beats talent when talent refuses to work hard". Otherwise, we need some damn talent that's willing to work hard.
    Thanks for ruining it. It took me a while to think about that.

  15. #63
    sweabs
    Guest

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    True?

  16. #64
    Member Merz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Age
    30
    Posts
    1,087
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    I think anyone who has any kind of real interest in this talentless team is a true fan, whether they want to win now or tank. All untrue or bandwagon fans would of jumpped ship years ago, or just flat out wouldn't care.

  17. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Merz For This Useful Post:


  18. #65

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Thanks for ruining it. It took me a while to think about that.
    Happy to help!

  19. #66
    Chairman of the Boards 90'sNBARocked's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Chicago, but Brooklyn/Naptown Raised!!
    Posts
    7,603

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Try and clarify that with me. I don't understand, respectfully I mean.
    sure no problem

    I think what I meant is although it is tougher to sign a big time FA to a smaller market it is possible and the examples I said were resigning JO and Granger

    As far as attracting a FA that was not ours, difficult yes but has been done before

    does that make sense?
    Sittin on top of the world!

  20. #67
    Chairman of the Boards 90'sNBARocked's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Chicago, but Brooklyn/Naptown Raised!!
    Posts
    7,603

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    UncleBuck's path is the one I should have taken. But I'm in so I'll go with it.


    Robert Frost wrote, "We love the things we love for what they are." He was talking about changing nature, and how he enjoyed a small creek (called "Hyla Brook") in the woods, both during blossoming springtime and barren winter. He didn't hate it even when it was iced over and lacking in the things he enjoyed in springtime. He appreciated the cycles of the seasons, and understood that those seasons were part of what he liked. He like it, in his own words, for what it was.

    Winning and losing are part of sports, just as the seasons are part of nature. Unlike the seasons, winning and losing don't occur regularly. The Colts' winning season has been crazily extended for a decade. The Pacers have had the opposite luck. But I don't see that it changes Frost's point.

    I don't know what experience you have in actually loving anything: a wife, children, a pet, or anything. But I can tell you that you don't ever want it to fail, and you don't love it less when it does fail. If your child succeeds, you rejoice. It if tries and fails, you praise its effort. And, as every parent knows, there are occasions when the kid hasn't even tried as hard as she ought to have. But even then you resolve to help her learn the lesson so the next time will be better. You wouldn't choose the long path to success that your child requires, and you wouldn't choose all the failures and set backs. But at every moment, you take reality for what it is and commit yourself to moving on toward maturity from that point.

    A lot of guys who think they are fans of a team are really just fans of winning. They think they are doing the team a favor by projecting their desire for winning onto this team rather than another team. There are even some who keep their desire for winning focused on the same team for years at a time and call that loyalty. And maybe it is. But it is also not the same as being a true fan of the team.

    Have you seen Hitchcock's Vertigo? There's a big section in the middle of the movie in which Jimmy Stewart is obsessed by a mysterious woman named Madeline and he forces another woman named Judy to dress up exactly like Madeline to satisfy his obsession. It is creepy, and the viewer understands that despite the money he's spending on Judy his attentions are just the opposite of affection.

    Now, a final point.

    I understand that in pro sports, the draft is a very powerful influence on teams' futures and that losers benefit the most from the draft. That's as may be. But no team ever won a championship just because it got a high draft pick. It won because it built a solid roster of 12 guys, fostered a great locker-room, established a winning team mentality, and fought their way up the standings. Any team that does those things will benefit from a high draft pick, but without them no draft pick will suffice. Tanking for a high draft pick is running as fast as you can in the opposite direction of those vital qualities. Continuining to believe that the "solution" for the Pacers lies in getting other people on the team, even unknown other people in an indeterminate and uncontrolled future, can never be the act of a true fan of the team that is in the present.
    Thanks for a very well thought out reply, much appreciated

    The only thing I will say to your analogy of a child is sure you want to encourage them but if they are going down the wrong path, and you know a better one from past experience you would tend to try and lead them in the right direction
    Sittin on top of the world!

  21. #68
    Chairman of the Boards 90'sNBARocked's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Chicago, but Brooklyn/Naptown Raised!!
    Posts
    7,603

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by GuffeyRay View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Bottom line teams regardles of how they acquire the star type players have to pay them what they could get on the open market and the Pacers and the Simons will not go down that path. If the Pacers ever win the title it will not be with a team of all stars, period.
    Well if true, that is very depressing news.
    Sittin on top of the world!

  22. #69
    Denim Chicken duke dynamite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Bloomington
    Posts
    13,373
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    sure no problem

    I think what I meant is although it is tougher to sign a big time FA to a smaller market it is possible and the examples I said were resigning JO and Granger

    As far as attracting a FA that was not ours, difficult yes but has been done before

    does that make sense?
    I understand now, but at the time we resigned Jermaine we were a winning team.

  23. #70

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eindar View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I enjoyed the Star Wars reference, but it was a terrible analogy, primarily because he mentions that Luke spent three years practicing his craft before taking a second crack at Vader. Luke was young, and needed experience before trying to unseat those in power.

    How much better did Yoda get over that time period? Oh, that's right, he died. Obi Wan wouldn't have improved much either. Neither, after those three years, would have been up to the task of tackling Vader.

    So, per your own analogy, the correct path is to play the young guys, remove any obstacles (Han Solo/Troy Murphy, Leia/Foster) preventing them from getting the experience they need, and hoping that over time they learn what they need to compete.

    Also, Luke didn't "win". For us to have a similar strategy, we'd have to somehow get a bye all the way to the Finals, while our enemies fight amongst themselves.

    Anyways, I don't support openly tanking, but I'd rather develop the young guys and lose a lot than bench them and lose a little. Winning is not an option with this squad.

    I'll leave you with a quote: "Hard work beats talent when talent refuses to work hard". Otherwise, we need some damn talent that's willing to work hard.
    That's the thing, the Pacers are already losing a lot.

    Yes, they haven't been healthy, but will this team ever get healthy. Ford is injury prone, Watson's got a hamstring issue, Danny's got a knee/ankle/foot issue, Dunleavy's got a knee issue, Foster's got a back issue..need I go on?

    Those injuries aren't going to go away with two weeks off, they are lingering injuries. They'll be back. So my point, the Pacer's won't be healthy for a prolonged period of time this year, and when they are, the chemistry will be so out of whack, they'll still lose, and that's not to say that they wouldn't lose with that group anyway.

    The youngsters might actually lose less, once they learn how to win.

  24. #71
    Chairman of the Boards 90'sNBARocked's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Chicago, but Brooklyn/Naptown Raised!!
    Posts
    7,603

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    As for San Antonio:

    Obviously sucking got them Tim Duncan, but you know what else did? LUCK. Boston, who sucked even worse, would have gotten him, but lost out in the lottery even with the worse record. So it's not like they were promised Tim Duncan all spring long.

    More importantly, they don't win the 2003, 2005, or 2007 titles without Manu Ginobili (picked #57) and Tony Parker (picked #28).


    Good , solid point

    However they did win in 1999 without Parker or Ginobili
    Sittin on top of the world!

  25. #72
    Chairman of the Boards 90'sNBARocked's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Chicago, but Brooklyn/Naptown Raised!!
    Posts
    7,603

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    At this point, I'm happy if we win, and I'm not at all upset if we lose. I do think a high lottery pick would help us, and if the results on the court are bad enough, it might force Bird/Morway's hand to make some moves to get rid of guys that aren't working (Murphy, Ford). I think we all want what is best for the team, but we all have different ideas on how to get it done.
    Well put my friend
    Sittin on top of the world!

  26. #73
    Chairman of the Boards 90'sNBARocked's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Chicago, but Brooklyn/Naptown Raised!!
    Posts
    7,603

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I understand now, but at the time we resigned Jermaine we were a winning team.
    good point

    and your other point is well taken that it is very hard to attract a big time FA that was not ours in the begining
    Sittin on top of the world!

  27. #74
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583
    Mood

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by GuffeyRay View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Bottom line teams regardles of how they acquire the star type players have to pay them what they could get on the open market and the Pacers and the Simons will not go down that path. If the Pacers ever win the title it will not be with a team of all stars, period.
    Where do you get that? When O'Neal could have left, we offered him the max. If you're thinking of Peja, they were certainly wise not to over spend on him.

    I've seen nothing to suggest we won't pay market value for a top player if we have the money to do so.

    Also, it's not "the Simons" anymore, sadly.

  28. The Following User Says Thank You to Hicks For This Useful Post:


  29. #75
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583
    Mood

    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    [/B]

    Good , solid point

    However they did win in 1999 without Parker or Ginobili
    True, but what do you think the % of likely success would be in trying to replicate their path to that title? The #1 pick in 87, the #3 pick in 89, and the #1 pick in 97. One of the best centers ever and the best power forward ever.

    If you promised me we could have the #1 pick this year, AND the #3 pick in 2012 AND the #1 pick in 2020, and you could promise me the #1 picks would turn out to be two of the greatest players of all time, then yeah, I'd be damn curious to see how we looked in 2020-2021.

Similar Threads

  1. The PD NBA Draft - #8 New York
    By Jose Slaughter in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 06-08-2009, 11:10 PM
  2. The PD NBA Best Pick Left in the Draft 9
    By Hicks in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 06-20-2008, 10:05 PM
  3. The PD NBA Draft - Selection #8 - Milwaukee
    By Jose Slaughter in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 12
    Last Post: 06-13-2008, 10:44 PM
  4. The PD NBA Best Pick Left in the Draft 6
    By Hicks in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 06-08-2008, 05:25 PM
  5. The PD NBA Best Pick Left in the Draft
    By Hicks in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: 05-23-2008, 10:23 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •