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Thread: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    Nice analogy duke,

    I just want change so bad that sometimnes you take 2 steps back to go three steps forward
    From your perspective I myself can't accept that. But I find that is what we did this offseason with the cheap FA signings. We lost Jack, a leader...but we got someting else in return. Reliable (somewhat) yet cheap players.

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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    How fast did you expect him to turn things around, exactly? He's been in his position for, what, 18 months?

    Furthermore, are you trying to suggest he and Bird's moves thus far have all be the wrong moves?

    If not, what the hell did you expect??
    I didn't expect the ship to be righted this soon, of course not. But what overly positive moves have been made lately? I guess you could argue the Hansbrough move, but other than that what points or moves could you possibly look at as positives under Morway's reign?

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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    They made the playoffs how many times consecutively and they made the finals once.

    Walsh got a reputation for not making trades for a reason. There comes a time when just making the playoffs shouldn't be in the criteria for a successful season. You strive to get better, not stand pat.

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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I have said for years on here that being BAD, and I mean really bad, might just be the best thing for the organization. I've felt that the end goal for organization has always been to just make the playoffs. Compete for a championship? Nope, just make the playoffs.
    And you would be incorrect. If you spend time around anyone and/or everyone in the organization from top to bottom, it's blatant that they want a championship, and that is their ultimate goal. I have absolutely 0% doubt about this.

    It's not just what they say to the press, it's what they say to their future employees as well and it's what they say in casual conversation as well. They want to win big. The only question is do they know how to pull it off, and even if they do, does that mean that it will happen?

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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by duke dynamite View Post
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    Yeah and that is not how I want to win.
    It's not even that to me, it's the fact that if you look at history, THAT IS NOT ANY BETTER OF A SOLUTION the majority of the time!

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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    It's not even that to me, it's the fact that if you look at history, THAT IS NOT ANY BETTER OF A SOLUTION the majority of the time!
    You're right, and I've stood firm with that belief the past two seasons before this one. It's really hard to watch your team do something like that.

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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    And you would be incorrect. If you spend time around anyone and/or everyone in the organization from top to bottom, it's blatant that they want a championship, and that is their ultimate goal. I have absolutely 0% doubt about this.

    It's not just what they say to the press, it's what they say to their future employees as well and it's what they say in casual conversation as well. They want to win big. The only question is do they know how to pull it off, and even if they do, does that mean that it will happen?
    Bball has made a career out of cricticizing Walsh for his non-move making GMing. Actions speak louder than words, and at some point in time words ring hollow.

    Look at how Miami won their rings. They traded some pretty damn good players away to get Shaq. It paid off. They have a ring. The Mavs got displacent with Nash, shipped him off in hopes to get one. They actually made it to the finals with Harris, and shipped him off in the hopes that Kidd would be a better fit.

    You've got to make the moves somewhere. Drafting your way to a ring has shown to be a false hope. Making rinky-dink FA signings and trades hasn't cut it, nor will it cut it.

    I don't know how many of you play poker, but at some point in time, you have to push all in. For the past 15years it's almost felt like the Pacers have been trying to stay in the game, and not win it.

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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    I didn't expect the ship to be righted this soon, of course not. But what overly positive moves have been made lately? I guess you could argue the Hansbrough move, but other than that what points or moves could you possibly look at as positives under Morway's reign?
    I think he did excellent work with the JO trade, all things considered.

    Other than that......................TBD
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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    In the spirit of the OP, I will answer that as a true fan you should never root for your team to purposely lose but you can reach a point where you accept losses under certain circumstances.

    For some people, those circumstances include benching marginally better players to develop young players. For other people that seems to be a net bad because it doesn't necessarily yield results (no guarantees for a high draft pick or that the high draft pick will pan out, teaches the young guys the wrong thing about what it takes to earn floor time, etc.)

    It would be wrong to say that anyone on either side of that argument is somehow not a "true" fan. That's why we have civil discussions on the pros and cons of these things.

    I think for PR purposes long term we can't afford a team that is perceived as throwing in the towel. We want a team that fights as hard as they can to win what they can - and, if they keep losing, they fulfill that dream of a higher draft pick. If they don't, then to get better they have to do something else other than win what is in reality a very high stakes gamble (see: Portland). After all, there are teams who get #1 picks that don't win championships.

    And, as I remember it, Tim Duncan didn't carry San Antonio anywhere single-handedly, it was the Robinson/Duncan 1-2 punch that did it.
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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    They made the playoffs how many times consecutively and they made the finals once.

    Walsh got a reputation for not making trades for a reason. There comes a time when just making the playoffs shouldn't be in the criteria for a successful season. You strive to get better, not stand pat.
    Especially when you are in a "small market" and finances and bottom line is so crucial. You can not afford to be consistently mediorce
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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    We should definitely be giving our young players the majority of our minutes. It's pretty obvious that our veterans can't win the championship for us this season, or even make the playoffs. Why not throw in the young guys and let them develop? That might be the same thing as tanking, but not really, because it helps in 2 ways... you get a good draft pick, and your young players get much needed experience so they're better next year.

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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Bball has made a career out of cricticizing Walsh for his non-move making GMing. Actions speak louder than words, and at some point in time words ring hollow.
    Walsh is gone. Maybe when he was in charge that's all they cared about, but post-Walsh, that is not the case.

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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Bball has made a career out of cricticizing Walsh for his non-move making GMing. Actions speak louder than words, and at some point in time words ring hollow.

    Look at how Miami won their rings. They traded some pretty damn good players away to get Shaq. It paid off. They have a ring. The Mavs got displacent with Nash, shipped him off in hopes to get one. They actually made it to the finals with Harris, and shipped him off in the hopes that Kidd would be a better fit.

    You've got to make the moves somewhere. Drafting your way to a ring has shown to be a false hope. Making rinky-dink FA signings and trades hasn't cut it, nor will it cut it.

    I don't know how many of you play poker, but at some point in time, you have to push all in. For the past 15years it's almost felt like the Pacers have been trying to stay in the game, and not win it.
    Umm, small market teams like the Pacers are somewhat limited in signing the type of players you are talking about. They simply can't buy their way into a ring like the Lakers or Boston .

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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Walsh is gone. Maybe when he was in charge that's all they cared about, but post-Walsh, that is not the case.
    And what's the evidence that he hasn't taken Donnie's way to heart? Outside of how to deal with problem players, I can't tell much a difference between them.

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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by GuffeyRay View Post
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    Umm, small market teams like the Pacers are somewhat limited in signing the type of players you are talking about. They simply can't buy their way into a ring like the Lakers or Boston .
    Boston didn't buy their way to a ring, and neither did the Lakers with regard to their most recent. Hell, they didn't even buy Kobe. That was a draft trade for a pretty good center.

    Boston collected a bunch of young promising players then traded them to various teams to get one much better player. They didn't buy anything. They drafted and traded for it.

    The same with the Lakers. They traded away their expiring contracts to a team bent on cutting salary and landed Pau.

    Thanks for helping my position.

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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    I'd never ever root for it, but I understand the advantages of having your choice of the best college players.

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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Take a look at the Thunder. They are in a far better position than the Pacers. Are they going to win a championship how they're currently constructed? Probably not.

    But they can cash in players like Westbrook in a package deal for a better player to compliment Durant. They can use those assests gained through lottery picks to obtain better established players.

    I'm not saying I hope the Pacers are a lottery bound team for the next few seasons. I'm simply saying that there are other ways to get title competing team. How you get there is the question, and it has multiple answers.

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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Boston didn't buy their way to a ring, and neither did the Lakers with regard to their most recent. Hell, they didn't even buy Kobe. That was a draft trade for a pretty good center.

    Boston collected a bunch of young promising players then traded them to various teams to get one much better player. They didn't buy anything. They drafted and traded for it.

    The same with the Lakers. They traded away their expiring contracts to a team bent on cutting salary and landed Pau.

    Thanks for helping my position.
    With the exeption of Al Jefferson and maybe Theo Ratliff, that trade was just a bunch of players thrown at the Wolves for Garnett.

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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    In the spirit of the OP, I will answer that as a true fan you should never root for your team to purposely lose but you can reach a point where you accept losses under certain circumstances.

    For some people, those circumstances include benching marginally better players to develop young players. For other people that seems to be a net bad because it doesn't necessarily yield results (no guarantees for a high draft pick or that the high draft pick will pan out, teaches the young guys the wrong thing about what it takes to earn floor time, etc.)

    It would be wrong to say that anyone on either side of that argument is somehow not a "true" fan. That's why we have civil discussions on the pros and cons of these things.

    I think for PR purposes long term we can't afford a team that is perceived as throwing in the towel. We want a team that fights as hard as they can to win what they can - and, if they keep losing, they fulfill that dream of a higher draft pick. If they don't, then to get better they have to do something else other than win what is in reality a very high stakes gamble (see: Portland). After all, there are teams who get #1 picks that don't win championships.

    And, as I remember it, Tim Duncan didn't carry San Antonio anywhere single-handedly, it was the Robinson/Duncan 1-2 punch that did it.

    Good point,

    Although Robinson was lind of on the tail end of his career and they beat a weak NY KNick squad who was given the infamous LJ phantom 4pt play to beat our Pacers
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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Boston didn't buy their way to a ring, and neither did the Lakers with regard to their most recent. Hell, they didn't even buy Kobe. That was a draft trade for a pretty good center.
    That was a draft trade for a player who was planning to refuse to play for anyone but a big market team. Not exactly the ammunition you are looking for here.
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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by GuffeyRay View Post
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    Umm, small market teams like the Pacers are somewhat limited in signing the type of players you are talking about. They simply can't buy their way into a ring like the Lakers or Boston .
    That is somewhat true , however JO re-upped with other options and their has been cases where a hot FA signed with a smalll market
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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Perdu View Post
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    We should definitely be giving our young players the majority of our minutes. It's pretty obvious that our veterans can't win the championship for us this season, or even make the playoffs. Why not throw in the young guys and let them develop? That might be the same thing as tanking, but not really, because it helps in 2 ways... you get a good draft pick, and your young players get much needed experience so they're better next year.
    Have you been watching the games? Roy is getting all of the minutes he can handle and Tyler is getting plenty of minutes considering he is coming off an injury. You act like Roy and Tyler are at the end of the bench not playing at all. Neither player is ready to play the entire game or even the biggest part of the game.

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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I never enter into any type of "true fan" discussion
    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    Care to be a bit more substive with your explaniation?
    UncleBuck's path is the one I should have taken. But I'm in so I'll go with it.


    Robert Frost wrote, "We love the things we love for what they are." He was talking about changing nature, and how he enjoyed a small creek (called "Hyla Brook") in the woods, both during blossoming springtime and barren winter. He didn't hate it even when it was iced over and lacking in the things he enjoyed in springtime. He appreciated the cycles of the seasons, and understood that those seasons were part of what he liked. He like it, in his own words, for what it was.

    Winning and losing are part of sports, just as the seasons are part of nature. Unlike the seasons, winning and losing don't occur regularly. The Colts' winning season has been crazily extended for a decade. The Pacers have had the opposite luck. But I don't see that it changes Frost's point.

    I don't know what experience you have in actually loving anything: a wife, children, a pet, or anything. But I can tell you that you don't ever want it to fail, and you don't love it less when it does fail. If your child succeeds, you rejoice. It if tries and fails, you praise its effort. And, as every parent knows, there are occasions when the kid hasn't even tried as hard as she ought to have. But even then you resolve to help her learn the lesson so the next time will be better. You wouldn't choose the long path to success that your child requires, and you wouldn't choose all the failures and set backs. But at every moment, you take reality for what it is and commit yourself to moving on toward maturity from that point.

    A lot of guys who think they are fans of a team are really just fans of winning. They think they are doing the team a favor by projecting their desire for winning onto this team rather than another team. There are even some who keep their desire for winning focused on the same team for years at a time and call that loyalty. And maybe it is. But it is also not the same as being a true fan of the team.

    Have you seen Hitchcock's Vertigo? There's a big section in the middle of the movie in which Jimmy Stewart is obsessed by a mysterious woman named Madeline and he forces another woman named Judy to dress up exactly like Madeline to satisfy his obsession. It is creepy, and the viewer understands that despite the money he's spending on Judy his attentions are just the opposite of affection.

    Now, a final point.

    I understand that in pro sports, the draft is a very powerful influence on teams' futures and that losers benefit the most from the draft. That's as may be. But no team ever won a championship just because it got a high draft pick. It won because it built a solid roster of 12 guys, fostered a great locker-room, established a winning team mentality, and fought their way up the standings. Any team that does those things will benefit from a high draft pick, but without them no draft pick will suffice. Tanking for a high draft pick is running as fast as you can in the opposite direction of those vital qualities. Continuining to believe that the "solution" for the Pacers lies in getting other people on the team, even unknown other people in an indeterminate and uncontrolled future, can never be the act of a true fan of the team that is in the present.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    That is somewhat true , however JO re-upped with other options and their has been cases where a hot FA signed with a smalll market
    Try and clarify that with me. I don't understand, respectfully I mean.

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    Default Re: Can a TRUE fan wish his team will lose?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    And what's the evidence that he hasn't taken Donnie's way to heart? Outside of how to deal with problem players, I can't tell much a difference between them.
    I don't think you can be convinced. I've told you why I know they are, but you don't believe me or you don't believe them, so there's no point in trying any further.

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