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Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

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"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

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Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

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In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

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If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

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To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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Official 2010 NBA Draft Recruiting Center

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  • Re: Official 2010 NBA Draft Recruiting Center

    I watched the game between Georgia Tech and Maryland (my guy Gvasquez was playing) and I got to watch D favors and he did not impressed me that much his numbers were really good because he was playing againts Maryland small guys, most of his points were from layups and dunks, he did not do much, the guy is big and athletic but he does not have the tools to score with his back to the basket and right now does not have a jump shot, whoever draft him is going to need patience(no like the pacers with Rush)they guy is a long time project three or four years I think.
    @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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    • Re: Official 2010 NBA Draft Recruiting Center

      at the same time I am hoping that D Favors does well so he can move up and be the number 2 pick, so maybe we can get lucky and be able to get Evan Turner
      @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

      Comment


      • Re: Official 2010 NBA Draft Recruiting Center

        this just got updated. I don't know anything about this guy Hassan Whiteside

        http://www.nbadraft.net/

        1 New Jersey John Wall Fr.
        2 *Minnesota Evan Turner Jr.
        3 Golden St. Wesley Johnson Jr.
        4 Sacramento DeMarcus Cousins Fr.
        5 Indiana Hassan Whiteside Fr.
        6 *Utah Al-Farouq Aminu So.
        7 Detroit Donatas Motiejunas Intl.
        8 Washington Derrick Favors Fr.
        9 Philadelphia Greg Monroe So.
        10 LA Clippers Patrick Patterson Jr.
        11 *Minnesota Xavier Henry Fr.
        12 Memphis Devin Ebanks So.
        13 Houston James Anderson Jr.
        14 New Orleans Cole Aldrich Jr.
        @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

        Comment


        • Re: Official 2010 NBA Draft Recruiting Center

          Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
          this just got updated. I don't know anything about this guy Hassan Whiteside
          5 Indiana Hassan Whiteside Fr.
          Whiteside is a tall, thin athletic center who can block shots. If you're lucky, he winds up with a career like Camby. Most likely he winds up something closer to Dalembert. He's a McGee level prospect, maybe a bit better. Who knows. It's hard to project guys like him.

          He's already 20, which is on the old side for a freshman.

          Comment


          • Re: Official 2010 NBA Draft Recruiting Center

            Originally posted by pacergod2 View Post
            I don't see how playing two guys who are considered PF/C's together is a problem. Or should I ask the Lakers how that works. Must be a bad thing if the Lakers are doing it.

            Putting a 6'11" Monroe or Cousins with Hibbert. Are you kidding me!?!?! The one thing I would like to see out of Monroe is what he looks like playing with a Center. He mans both the PF and C spot for that Georgetown team. With Cousins, can he hit a consistent 10-12 footer? I have really only seen him effective in a back to the basket game (which I really like), but a good center can hit that shot to help round his game out/be more effective. But I am really high on both of those guys. I have seen two games with Favors and I am not that impressed to use our pick on him at this point. Physically very gifted, don't know that he translates his dominant athleticism to the court like he should though. I really like Patterson for the exact reasons you do Seth. I just think that his upside is a lot less and would be a great pick if we sneak to around 8-10 (somehow). Great person, great worker, solid all-around game... reminds me of a PF version of Brandon Rush, which I just don't see as a superstar, but a very, very good piece to a TEAM.
            I enjoy reading your perspectives, PG2 ... and your female avatars make my heart ache ... but we disagree on several points. Hibbert is here to stay, so if Cousins is available when we draft, I believe we'll trade the pick ... not only because of his character/maturity questions, but because his game is not complementary to Hibbert's. Neither is Monroe's. I'm not pushing Favors, but he's got the front-court athleticism this team needs.

            Seth likes Patterson enough to take him at #6. You seem to agree. I've already voiced my reservations (I think Patterson will be a decent player, but I don't want him for us), but I'm certainly ready to be wrong.

            As badly as I want a 4-5, however, I'm just not salivating over any of the top ones. So instead, I'm thinking that we should bend over backwards to either trade up for Turner or trade down for an extra pick.

            Heck, we may be able to parlay one of our expirings into a late first-rounder anyway. Can't wait!
            Last edited by DrFife; 02-23-2010, 09:26 PM.


            "He’s no shrinking violet when it comes to that kind of stuff."

            - Rick Carlisle on how Kevin Pritchard responds to needed roster changes.

            Comment


            • Re: Official 2010 NBA Draft Recruiting Center

              draft express just got updated

              http://www.draftexpress.com/nba-mock-draft/2010/



              First Round
              1 Nets John Wall PG
              19 years old; 6'4"; 195 lbs.
              Kentucky, Freshman
              2 Timberwolves Evan Turner SG/SF
              21 years old; 6'7"; 205 lbs.
              Ohio State, Junior
              3 Warriors Derrick Favors PF/C
              18 years old; 6'10"; 246 lbs.
              Georgia Tech, Freshman
              4 Kings DeMarcus Cousins C
              19 years old; 6'11"; 270 lbs.
              Kentucky, Freshman
              5 Jazz
              From
              Knicks Al-Farouq Aminu SF/PF
              19 years old; 6'8"; 210 lbs.
              Wake Forest, Sophomore
              6 Pacers Cole Aldrich C
              21 years old; 6'11"; 250 lbs.
              Kansas, Junior

              7 Wizards Ed Davis PF
              20 years old; 6'9"; 215 lbs.
              North Carolina, Sophomore
              8 Pistons Wesley Johnson SF/PF
              22 years old; 6'7"; 195 lbs.
              Syracuse, Junior
              9 76ers Patrick Patterson PF
              20 years old; 6'8"; 223 lbs.
              Kentucky, Junior
              10 Clippers Jan Vesely PF
              19 years old; 6'11"; 240 lbs.
              KK Partizan Belgrade, International
              11 Bucks Donatas Motiejunas PF/C
              19 years old; 7'0"; 215 lbs.
              Benetton Treviso, International
              12 Timberwolves
              From
              Bobcats Stanley Robinson SF/PF
              21 years old; 6'9"; 225 lbs.
              Connecticut, Senior
              13 Heat Greg Monroe PF/C
              19 years old; 6'11"; 240 lbs.
              Georgetown, Sophomore
              14 Grizzlies Ekpe Udoh PF/C
              22 years old; 6'10"; 240 lbs.
              Baylor, Junior
              15 Rockets Xavier Henry SG
              18 years old; 6'6"; 210 lbs.
              Kansas, Freshman
              16 Bulls Elias Harris SF/PF
              20 years old; 6'7"; 220 lbs.
              Gonzaga, Freshman
              17 Hornets Willie Warren SG
              20 years old; 6'4"; 200 lbs.
              Oklahoma, Sophomore
              18 Trailblazers Solomon Alabi C
              21 years old; 7'1"; 230 lbs.
              Florida State, Sophomore
              19 Heat
              From
              Raptors Larry Sanders PF/C
              21 years old; 6'9"; 205 lbs.
              VCU, Junior
              20 Spurs Quincy Pondexter SF/PF
              21 years old; 6'6"; 220 lbs.
              Washington, Senior
              21 Thunder Elliot Williams SG
              20 years old; 6'4"; 175 lbs.
              Memphis, Sophomore
              22 Thunder
              From
              Suns Devin Ebanks SF/PF
              20 years old; 6'8"; 205 lbs.
              West Virginia, Sophomore
              23 Nets
              From
              Mavericks Paul George SF/PF
              19 years old; 6'7"; 185 lbs.
              Fresno State, Sophomore
              24 Hawks Gordon Hayward SF/PF
              19 years old; 6'8"; 200 lbs.
              Butler, Sophomore
              25 Timberwolves
              From
              Jazz Kalin Lucas PG
              20 years old; 6'0"; 180 lbs.
              Michigan State, Junior
              26 Celtics Sherron Collins PG
              22 years old; 5'11"; 190 lbs.
              Kansas, Senior
              27 Grizzlies
              From
              Nuggets Gani Lawal PF/C
              21 years old; 6'8"; 233 lbs.
              Georgia Tech, Junior
              28 Magic Damion James PF
              22 years old; 6'7"; 225 lbs.
              Texas, Senior
              29 Grizzlies
              From
              Lakers James Anderson SG/SF
              20 years old; 6'6"; 195 lbs.
              Oklahoma State, Junior
              30 Wizards
              From
              Cavaliers Miroslav Raduljica C
              22 years old; 7'0"; 230 lbs.
              KK FMP Zeleznik, International
              @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

              Comment


              • Re: Official 2010 NBA Draft Recruiting Center

                Fife... I appreciate the kind words. And I love my avatar.

                I think that Monroe fits with Hibbert much better than Cousins, because I haven't seen Cousins be able to stretch away from the basket and be effective when Hibbert would be posting up. Kentucky has asked Patterson to play in that role and he has done an excellent job. Another reason I like Patterson so much. Monroe has a mid range jumper, a back to the basket game, and he can beat smaller players off the dribble (which is impressive for a guy with his breadth). He could stand to add a little muscle, but I think that is him still developing "old-man weight". Monroe has the strength, work ethic, intensity, good handles for a big, good quickness... there is a lot to like about his game. I think he would be a great fit between Granger and Hibbert. Cousins would be great when playing against a Boston or LA who has multiple bigs. I think with both of them, they could play center when Hibbert goes/fouls out, which will be important for us.

                After Wall and Turner, I would much rather take Cousins or Monroe than take a flier on Favors, Davis, or the international guys. We have too dire a need for a good PF, that we would be mistaken to take a Johnson or Aminu. I think Aldrich will be a solid center for many years, but he is strictly a center, which doesn't really address our need as you said Fife. I believe Cousins has the athleticism where he can be more of a PF than Aldrich could. You could not play Aldrich and Hibbert at the same time.
                "Your course, your path, is not going to be like mine," West says. "Everybody is not called to be a multimillionaire. Everybody's not called to be the president. Whatever your best work is, you do it. Do it well. … You cease your own greatness when you aspire to be someone else."

                Comment


                • Re: Official 2010 NBA Draft Recruiting Center

                  Remind me who DraftExpress had us taking for the bulk of the 08-09 season? I'm trying to remember. Was it someone like Jennings?

                  Comment


                  • Re: Official 2010 NBA Draft Recruiting Center

                    Originally posted by Hicks View Post
                    Remind me who DraftExpress had us taking for the bulk of the 08-09 season? I'm trying to remember. Was it someone like Jennings?
                    I think it was Blair(reason why seth was so excited) and Jennings I think
                    @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

                    Comment


                    • Re: Official 2010 NBA Draft Recruiting Center

                      Originally posted by vnzla81 View Post
                      this just got updated. I don't know anything about this guy Hassan Whiteside

                      http://www.nbadraft.net/

                      1 New Jersey John Wall Fr.
                      2 *Minnesota Evan Turner Jr.
                      3 Golden St. Wesley Johnson Jr.
                      4 Sacramento DeMarcus Cousins Fr.
                      5 Indiana Hassan Whiteside Fr.
                      6 *Utah Al-Farouq Aminu So.
                      7 Detroit Donatas Motiejunas Intl.
                      8 Washington Derrick Favors Fr.
                      9 Philadelphia Greg Monroe So.
                      10 LA Clippers Patrick Patterson Jr.
                      11 *Minnesota Xavier Henry Fr.
                      12 Memphis Devin Ebanks So.
                      13 Houston James Anderson Jr.
                      14 New Orleans Cole Aldrich Jr.
                      I wouldn't be happy if we were to pass on Favors for Hassan Whiteside.

                      Comment


                      • Re: Official 2010 NBA Draft Recruiting Center

                        Whiteside has been moved way up on Draft Express' 2011 mock. He was brought up last month and was at #9 in 2011. Now he's at #3.

                        So both of the major mocks have him going top-five when he declares, and ESPN has him lottery. It doesn't seem like Whiteside at #5 would be a stretch, at least not at this point. He's probably the least talked about top-five prospect I can recall since I started following the draft heavily about 6-7 years ago.

                        His team is 20-7 in a mid-major conference (Conference U.S.A.) so he should get a chance to show his stuff in the NCAA Tournament.
                        Last edited by Lance George; 02-24-2010, 05:44 PM.

                        Comment


                        • Re: Official 2010 NBA Draft Recruiting Center

                          Originally posted by Hicks View Post
                          Remind me who DraftExpress had us taking for the bulk of the 08-09 season? I'm trying to remember. Was it someone like Jennings?
                          this is the draft express from 2009

                          First Round
                          1 Clippers Blake Griffin PF/C
                          20 years old; 6'10"; 251 lbs.
                          Oklahoma, Sophomore
                          2 Grizzlies Hasheem Thabeet C
                          23 years old; 7'3"; 265 lbs.
                          Connecticut, Junior
                          3 Thunder James Harden SG
                          20 years old; 6'5"; 218 lbs.
                          Arizona State, Sophomore
                          4 Kings Tyreke Evans PG/SG
                          20 years old; 6'5"; 195 lbs.
                          Memphis, Freshman
                          5 Timberwolves
                          From
                          Wizards Ricky Rubio PG
                          19 years old; 6'4"; 180 lbs.
                          DKV Joventut, International
                          6 Timberwolves Stephen Curry PG/SG
                          21 years old; 6'3"; 185 lbs.
                          Davidson, Junior
                          7 Warriors Jordan Hill PF
                          22 years old; 6'10"; 235 lbs.
                          Arizona, Junior
                          8 Knicks Jrue Holiday PG/SG
                          19 years old; 6'3"; 185 lbs.
                          UCLA, Freshman
                          9 Raptors Demar DeRozan SG/SF
                          20 years old; 6'7"; 207 lbs.
                          USC, Freshman
                          10 Bucks Jonny Flynn PG
                          21 years old; 6'0"; 172 lbs.
                          Syracuse, Sophomore
                          11 Nets Terrence Williams SG/SF
                          22 years old; 6'6"; 220 lbs.
                          Louisville, Senior
                          12 Bobcats Gerald Henderson SG
                          22 years old; 6'5"; 215 lbs.
                          Duke, Junior
                          13 Pacers Ty Lawson PG
                          22 years old; 6'0"; 195 lbs.
                          North Carolina, Junior

                          14 Suns Earl Clark SF/PF
                          22 years old; 6'9"; 220 lbs.
                          Louisville, Junior
                          15 Pistons B.J. Mullens C
                          21 years old; 7'0"; 260 lbs.
                          Ohio State, Freshman
                          16 Bulls James Johnson SF/PF
                          23 years old; 6'8"; 235 lbs.
                          Wake Forest, Sophomore
                          17 76ers Brandon Jennings PG
                          20 years old; 6'1"; 169 lbs.
                          Lottomatica Roma, International
                          18 Timberwolves
                          From
                          Heat Sam Young SF/PF
                          24 years old; 6'6"; 210 lbs.
                          Pittsburgh, Senior
                          19 Hawks Eric Maynor PG
                          22 years old; 6'2"; 175 lbs.
                          VCU, Senior
                          20 Jazz DeJuan Blair PF/C
                          20 years old; 6'7"; 265 lbs.
                          Pittsburgh, Sophomore
                          21 Hornets Jeff Teague PG/SG
                          21 years old; 6'2"; 180 lbs.
                          Wake Forest, Sophomore
                          22 Trailblazers
                          From
                          Mavericks Tyler Hansbrough PF
                          24 years old; 6'9"; 230 lbs.
                          North Carolina, Senior
                          23 Kings
                          From
                          Rockets Omri Casspi SF/PF
                          21 years old; 6'8"; 220 lbs.
                          Maccabi Tel Aviv, International
                          24 Mavericks
                          From
                          Trailblazers Nick Calathes PG/SG
                          21 years old; 6'5"; 185 lbs.
                          Florida, Sophomore
                          25 Thunder
                          From
                          Spurs Austin Daye SF/PF
                          21 years old; 6'10"; 190 lbs.
                          Gonzaga, Sophomore
                          26 Bulls
                          From
                          Nuggets Taj Gibson PF
                          24 years old; 6'9"; 210 lbs.
                          USC, Junior
                          27 Grizzlies
                          From
                          Magic DeMarre Carroll SF/PF
                          23 years old; 6'8"; 225 lbs.
                          Missouri, Senior
                          28 Timberwolves
                          From
                          Celtics Jonas Jerebko SF/PF
                          22 years old; 6'9"; 210 lbs.
                          Angelico Biella, International
                          29 Knicks
                          From
                          Lakers Jack McClinton PG/SG
                          25 years old; 6'1"; 185 lbs.
                          Aliaga Petkim, Senior
                          30 Cavaliers Rodrigue Beaubois PG
                          22 years old; 6'2"; 182 lbs.
                          Cholet, International
                          Last edited by vnzla81; 02-24-2010, 04:46 PM.
                          @WhatTheFFacts: Studies show that sarcasm enhances the ability of the human mind to solve complex problems!

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                          • Re: Official 2010 NBA Draft Recruiting Center

                            Whiteside's freshmen production vs. Marcus Camby's & Eddie Griffin's:

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                            • Re: Official 2010 NBA Draft Recruiting Center

                              Originally posted by GrangeRusHibbert View Post
                              Whiteside's freshmen production vs. Marcus Camby's & Eddie Griffin's:

                              Wow, 5.3 BPG is insane.
                              I wonder how he would work out at PF with Roy at C?

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                              • Re: Official 2010 NBA Draft Recruiting Center

                                Originally posted by GrangeRusHibbert View Post
                                Whiteside's freshmen production vs. Marcus Camby's & Eddie Griffin's:

                                I like it. Why did you throw Eddie Griffin in there, out of sheer curiosity?

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