Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 59

Thread: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

  1. #1
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,762

    Default D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    For those you you that are tired of hearing or reading about the 5 game win streak you will want to avoid the comments I am bolding from today's Wells article.

    http://www.indystar.com/article/2009...s-seek-answers

    Indiana Pacers spent a week on the road hoping to find an identity.
    They returned Sunday as losers of nine of their past 10 games and with no reason for optimism.
    "You want to win basketball games, and we didn't win the basketball games," coach Jim O'Brien said. "I thought we played good stretches in every game, but we came up short on all of them."
    The Pacers (6-12) resume practice today at Conseco Fieldhouse in preparation for Wednesday's game against the Portland Trail Blazers.
    Here's a look at several concerns that stood out during the trip:
    Is this the right group of players?
    The season is only 18 games old, but already there is an impression that these players can't get the job done.
    Chemistry is key to any team's success. The Pacers need somebody to take the lead because the coaching staff can only do so much before the players tune them out.
    If not, team president Larry Bird may want to take a hard look at shaking up the roster. He may already be thinking that way. General manager David Morway stayed with the team the entire trip instead of returning to Indianapolis after the first two games as planned.
    Still no rotation
    O'Brien has used many starting combinations. Dahntay Jones replaced Brandon Rush at shooting guard and O'Brien has used both Roy Hibbert and Jeff Foster at center.
    O'Brien may also want to take a look at point guard. T.J. Ford didn't do anything to earn the confidence of teammates during the trip.
    Ford had a total of 10 assists and 11 turnovers in four games. O'Brien went with Earl Watson in Ford's place for most of the second half against Sacramento and the Los Angeles Clippers last week.
    The Pacers must have stability at point guard if they expect to win.
    O'Brien hopes to eventually settle on a nine-man rotation.
    No offensive rhythm
    The Pacers have been shooting jumpers quickly in their up-tempo offense.
    That mind-set has led to players standing on the perimeter, forcing shots and trying to do things out of their element with the ball.
    That's why the Pacers are averaging only 97 points a game and making 30 percent of their 3-point attempts this season.
    "I'm still not confident we're playing the style that was successful for us to get five wins in a row. That wasn't by luck," Jones said. "We were playing a good style of basketball. It was interesting, it was successful and now it's totally different. We were pushing the ball, getting easy buckets. It seems like we have to work so hard to score now."O'Brien situation
    The coach usually gets the blame when things go wrong. Bird said last week O'Brien has dealt with many injuries.
    It's unknown when O'Brien will have a healthy roster. Forward Danny Granger left the Staples Center with a walking boot on his right foot Saturday after aggravating his bruised right heel in the third quarter against the Clippers

    ************************************************** *******

    I wonder what style is he referring to? Did we play a differant style then or was it just personel?

    My thought is that we did play a differant style then and our offense was started by our defense. When we were on offense we were more methodical to my memory but then again that is so many losses ago the win streak seems like something from the 90's.

  2. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Peck For This Useful Post:


  3. #2
    Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Fishers, IN
    Posts
    443

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    "It's unknown when O'Brien will have a healthy roster."
    I'm at the end with this excuse. Anybody who wants to continue to use that excuse, and it seems to be rearing its ugliness all the time lately, needs to look at the Houston Rockets situation closely. Then get back to me about O'Brien and a healthy roster.
    This team has the youth, was dealing well with injuries, and yet as soon as the veterans returned they were handed their jobs. Tell me the youth doesn't see that?

  4. The Following User Says Thank You to special ed For This Useful Post:


  5. #3
    Member Erik's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Age
    40
    Posts
    727

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    I'm suprised that those comments didn't get their own "Pacers players give up on coach" article from Wells.

  6. #4
    Go Colts! Shade's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Age
    36
    Posts
    44,662

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Dahntay is right.

  7. The Following User Says Thank You to Shade For This Useful Post:


  8. #5
    You are my Lucifer D-BONE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Nirvana
    Posts
    7,103

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by special ed View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    "It's unknown when O'Brien will have a healthy roster."
    I'm at the end with this excuse. Anybody who wants to continue to use that excuse, and it seems to be rearing its ugliness all the time lately, needs to look at the Houston Rockets situation closely. Then get back to me about O'Brien and a healthy roster.
    This team has the youth, was dealing well with injuries, and yet as soon as the veterans returned they were handed their jobs. Tell me the youth doesn't see that?
    Absolutely! We've had that justification for poor play around here for-seemingly-time immemorial. At least through Carlisle and O'Brien's tenure.

    Not that we'd be reeling off a bunch of 5 game win streaks with the line up from the win streak, but we've got to find a way to recapture the chemistry and enthusiasm that group had. That is the single biggest issue for me. They just play like they're burnt out and we're still in the first quarter of the season. Unacceptable.

    Maybe it's dawning on the returnees that the team is not good enough to even match last year's performance. Bottom line-we lost three guys who we're legit offensive contributors, team players, and one who was the leader and second best player. At best we got back a back-up PG, a less offensively inclined, less experienced big, and a defensive role player.

    As far as coaching, I do think this team would be better with more of a teacher, young talent developer who employed a more structured, traditional offense and defense. Either that or the players just aren't buying into it. Result is the same in either case.

    Losing is one thing. Looking consistently apathetic and disorganized is another. They need to get it together or what image they may have improved last season in a "moving in the right direction" sense will have evaporated by the new year.
    I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

    -Emiliano Zapata

  9. #6
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,903

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    I don't see a different style, I don't see more or less running. I guezss I think D. Jones is just wrong.

    Having said that, I think the defense was better during the 5 game streak (or the opponents offenses were bad) and that allowed the pacers to get out and run quite a bit more.

    And yeah, no team is ever 100% healthy, so that is an excuse that IMO isn't valid. Whoever plays should be able to play hard, together and have a clue as to what they are supposed to be doing
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 12-07-2009 at 09:12 AM.

  10. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Unclebuck For This Useful Post:


  11. #7
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Free Lance!
    Posts
    8,165

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Somebody tell Dahntay that not to talk about things he wouldn't know about.

    This question should be answered by statisticians and internet chat contributors.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  12. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to McKeyFan For This Useful Post:


  13. #8
    Custom User Titleist
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Pacer Purgatory Praying for Paul
    Posts
    3,576
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    I think maybe Dahntay is trying to say that he was able to more easily score in bunches during that stretch because nobody really considered him a threat to score yet, and that since then our opponents have made adjustments to stop him on offense, and that because of his lack of effectiveness our offense has stagnated further, especially combined with poor team shooting from beyond the arc.

    If that is what he is trying to say, OK.

  14. #9
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Brown County, Indiana
    Posts
    3,780

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I don't see a different style, I don't see more or less running. I guezss I think D. Jones is just wrong.

    Having said that, I think the defense was better during the 5 game streak (or the opponents offenses were bad) and that allowed the pacers to get out and run quite a bit more.

    And yeah, no team is ever 100% healthy, so that is an excuse that IMO isn't valid. Whoever plays should be able to play hard, together and have a clue as to what they are supposed to be doing
    Don't those two comments contradict each other?

  15. #10
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Danberry
    Age
    55
    Posts
    12,038

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    I see the same players on the floor who moved during the streak not moving now - in fact, I often see them moving until they miss a few shots and then they all stop.

    I think what is happening is that, in spite of the supposed environment where taking a good shot is encouraged even if you miss it, no one on the team wants to miss a shot. Therefore they find their good spot and stay there, since if they move they might get the hot potato when time runs out.

    I simply don't agree with anyone who says JOB is somehow coaching the "stand around and wait for a contested shot" basketball we are playing. No matter how much you hate his style, that never has been his style.

    Please note that is NOT to say he's any good at all at actually coaching half-court sets that free people up as opposed to transition ball. I just want to see people focus on what he can't do instead of somehow making it sound like this is all on purpose because he wants to see this garbage.
    Last edited by BillS; 12-07-2009 at 10:33 AM. Reason: Contradicted myself, fixed.
    BillS

    "Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
    - Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

  16. #11
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Brown County, Indiana
    Posts
    3,780

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I wonder what style is he referring to? Did we play a differant style then or was it just personel?
    Or have they not accepted that personnel dictates the style of play. You don't see many Yugos (the car, not the country) in a car race.

  17. #12
    Custom User Titleist
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Pacer Purgatory Praying for Paul
    Posts
    3,576
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    I found it interesting that Morway chose to stay on the road with the team longer than planned. Maybe he is concerned enough to be actually considering what changes need to be made to begin to correct the situation, and wanted to see it up close alongside Bird.

    If so, it's a good sign!

  18. #13
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,903

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Don't those two comments contradict each other?
    Yeah it does especially when I failed to explain the difference. I meant to say that the Pacers didn't run anymore or any less during that stretch of games by design, but when your defense is better you are going to get more fastbreaks whether you change your approach or not.

    Hope that makes sense. My point is that it wasn't like the coaching staff changed the system for 5 games and then changed it after those 5 games

  19. #14
    Denim Chicken duke dynamite's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Bloomington
    Posts
    13,373
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I found it interesting that Morway chose to stay on the road with the team longer than planned. Maybe he is concerned enough to be actually considering what changes need to be made to begin to correct the situation, and wanted to see it up close alongside Bird.

    If so, it's a good sign!
    Gotta love the interactive front office doings.

  20. #15
    Member owl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    4,382

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    What has changed is not the style but what players are playing and when.
    Start Hibbert and then bring in Solomon. Start Tyler at PF and put Dunleavy at SF and
    DAhntay at SG and Watson at point. Bring Troy and Brandon and Ford off the bench.
    Since Danny is hurt he can't start at PF.
    {o,o}
    |)__)
    -"-"-

  21. #16

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by special ed View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    needs to look at the Houston Rockets situation closely.

    I can't agree more.

    The 07-08 offseason Carl Landry was a RFA. Houston tried scaring off other teams with his knee injury garbage. Finally, the Bobcats gave him an offer sheet for a whopping 3 mil that Houston promptly matched. I and numerous others were very vocal in favor of wanting the Pacers to get him. I felt he'd be a great b/u POWER FORWARD... not Jimmy's stretch PF type. Has anyone noticed his numbers coming off the bench this year? He's averaging 16/7 coming off the bench in only 4 1/2 minutes more PT than last year. He's down from 61% to 56% FGA this year, but is went from 66% to 88% FT while almost doubling his FTA. Ask me again who I'd rather have as a POWER FORWARD, and his name ain't Troy Murphy! Nice player for 3 mil!!!

    As far as teams having players injured. The Kings are 9-10 while Martin and Garcia are out injured. That team won less than half of the 36 games the Pacers won last year with 17, and the Pacers lost to them last week. That excuse of injuries only goes so far b4 it gets old when other teams are winning with their other players while the Pacers aren't. I believe that team was described by a poster as youngs and no names. I'd love the Pacers to have some of those young'ns and no names that have won 3 more games than the Pacers with Martin and Garcia injured. Until last night, they were playing .500 ball with injuries to 2 major players. What's the Pacers excuse??

  22. #17
    .
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I don't see a different style, I don't see more or less running. I guezss I think D. Jones is just wrong.

    Having said that, I think the defense was better during the 5 game streak (or the opponents offenses were bad) and that allowed the pacers to get out and run quite a bit more.

    And yeah, no team is ever 100% healthy, so that is an excuse that IMO isn't valid. Whoever plays should be able to play hard, together and have a clue as to what they are supposed to be doing
    I think a significant change for our defense was going from a chunk of our big man minutes going to Granger and Solomon Jones to all going to Troy Murphy. Not only is that a down grade in and of itself, but putting Murphy next to Roy makes Roy worse than he already is.

    Then of course having Danny at the 4 meant you could play Dahntay and Brandon together on the wings more often, which of course helps the defense a lot, too.

    I don't think the offense has ever been that good this year, but with that rotation, the D was certainly better.

    I simply don't believe playing Troy Murphy is worth losing that.

    Now, that non-Murphy team was no world beater. We'd still have a lot of issues. But it'd be better than this, and I think significantly better.

  23. The Following User Says Thank You to Hicks For This Useful Post:


  24. #18
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,903

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I think a significant change for our defense was going from a chunk of our big man minutes going to Granger and Solomon Jones to all going to Troy Murphy. Not only is that a down grade in and of itself, but putting Murphy next to Roy makes Roy worse than he already is.

    Then of course having Danny at the 4 meant you could play Dahntay and Brandon together on the wings more often, which of course helps the defense a lot, too.

    I don't think the offense has ever been that good this year, but with that rotation, the D was certainly better.

    I simply don't believe playing Troy Murphy is worth losing that.

    Now, that non-Murphy team was no world beater. We'd still have a lot of issues. But it'd be better than this, and I think significantly better.

    I agree with you, but I think if you are coaching the Pacers team and see Murphy ready to play I think it is reasonable to play Murphy. Sure we can argue about how much and whether Solo should be excluded from getting time.

    But it is within the realm of reasonableness to play Murphy at least some at power forward. I hate his defense as much as anyone, and he isn't my type of player, I would be fine if he were benched and all those minutes went to Jeff, Danny and Tyler and give solo some of the back-up center minutes, but I can also see that playing Murphy is a reasonable and explananable decision by this coaching staff.

  25. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Unclebuck For This Useful Post:


  26. #19
    .
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Just because he's a good (well, usually) jump shooter?

    Is a one-trick pony on offense so valuable to improving our offense that it's worth the damage to the defense?

  27. #20
    .
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Keep in mind it's not as simple as the trade off less defense for the jumpshot. To be fair, I'll add that it theoretically spaces the floor to allow more room for others.

    But also consider this: Where do most of Troy's shots come from? 20+ feet from the basket. What does that mean?

    1) More misses than shots closer to or in the paint
    2) Which means more defensive rebounds for our opponents
    3) And also means more LONG defensive rebounds for our opponents, making it easier for them to push the ball up the floor
    4) Which means there are more possessions per game, which is a problem when your FG% is worse than your opponents.

  28. #21
    Member Speed's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Brownsburg
    Posts
    8,580

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    If you play the type of defense they played during that stretch you'll win you fair share of games. The personnell that's being played now can't and doesn't play that type of defense. I really don't see where any of the questions are.

  29. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Speed For This Useful Post:


  30. #22

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I agree with you, but I think if you are coaching the Pacers team and see Murphy ready to play I think it is reasonable to play Murphy. Sure we can argue about how much and whether Solo should be excluded from getting time.

    But it is within the realm of reasonableness to play Murphy at least some at power forward. I hate his defense as much as anyone, and he isn't my type of player, I would be fine if he were benched and all those minutes went to Jeff, Danny and Tyler and give solo some of the back-up center minutes, but I can also see that playing Murphy is a reasonable and explananable decision by this coaching staff.
    I think it was reasonable then too. Murph did have a solid year last year, at least on offense. However, it was only reasonable until the team consistantly played atrocious basketball, not just losing, but getting blown out by bad teams, where all signs point to Murph killing that chemistry that won us the 5GWS. (the signs you guys have mentioned, cutting down PT for SJones and Tyler, not being able to play DJones and Brandon at the wings, Roy's good play stifled)

    It is certainly unreasonable now to keep the status quo of badness.
    Last edited by PaceBalls; 12-07-2009 at 01:24 PM.

  31. #23
    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Age
    38
    Posts
    1,428

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    He can't just not play the guy either. There are too many reasons to play him. He is a 3 point threat. He does rebound well. He does make alot of money. He did go to a local college. He is a veteran starter in this league. Players don't lose their starting position to injury. His backup is a rookie on a limited playing time schedule. He may be the only big outside of Foster who even understands the defensive scheme.

    Those are a few reasons I can think of and I don't like the guy.

  32. #24
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    32,903

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Just because he's a good (well, usually) jump shooter?

    Is a one-trick pony on offense so valuable to improving our offense that it's worth the damage to the defense?
    No, he did have reasonably good season last year.

  33. #25
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Downtown baby
    Posts
    12,635

    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Somebody tell Dahntay that not to talk about things he wouldn't know about.

    This question should be answered by statisticians and internet chat contributors.
    Personally I think the statisticians are on his side anyway. And some of the innerweb chatties too.


    They are posting Roy less and less. Rush is getting less PT period because he's not shooting well enough, even if he's rebounding great and playing strong defense. Certainly they have a PF trailing the offense for his top of arc 3pt shot rather than putting a guy on the baseline for screens and inside play.

    I think there are a lot of differences in the style. I think they leaned on inside grind a bit more after opponents makes, and are now back in quick shot after a make mode which is problematic.

    Of course I'd like to go look at one of the win streak games to refresh and compare. I think I have 1-2 still on Tivo, I'll try to make some time for that.

    Bird said last week O'Brien has dealt with many injuries.
    He went on to add..."This appears to be the only reason we were able to force him to use a rotation and style that could win games. Right now we just have to hope for more injuries because as GM my hands are tied."

  34. The Following User Says Thank You to Naptown_Seth For This Useful Post:


Similar Threads

  1. Jones' signing sharpens focus on defense
    By MillerTime in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 07-14-2009, 09:11 PM
  2. Jacksonville Jaguar Matt Jones faces felony drug charge
    By idioteque in forum Indianapolis Colts
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 11-09-2008, 01:18 AM
  3. Pacers' Jones Has Another Fight on His Hands
    By Will Galen in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 14
    Last Post: 10-08-2004, 03:40 PM
  4. Freddie Jones making his mark, article out of Oregon
    By Unclebuck in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 13
    Last Post: 02-15-2004, 12:10 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •