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Thread: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

  1. #26
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Players don't lose their starting position to injury. His backup is a rookie on a limited playing time schedule.
    Granger's not a rookie. I mean if we are talking about the guy that DID PLAY the 4 vs Garnett in the Boston win. Rush-Jones-Granger is a good combo, work Roy and Solo at the 5, have Foster help at the 4 and 5. Give Tyler minutes if you find some.

    Don't play Ford and Watson together. If you want to rotate out Ford and Rush at the same time then you can go big on the frontline for a few minutes, and now you have Dunleavy anyway. Watson-Dun as your backups work fine to spell Ford and any one of the 3 wings.

    You can easily move Troy out of the mix. Personally I think you could work Price in as the backup PG, especially with Dun back on the court. I would NEVER play Ford with Watson at the 1-2. You could go small with Head at the 2 if need be, and only with Watson at PG.

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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Granger's not a rookie. I mean if we are talking about the guy that DID PLAY the 4 vs Garnett in the Boston win. Rush-Jones-Granger is a good combo, work Roy and Solo at the 5, have Foster help at the 4 and 5. Give Tyler minutes if you find some.

    Don't play Ford and Watson together. If you want to rotate out Ford and Rush at the same time then you can go big on the frontline for a few minutes, and now you have Dunleavy anyway. Watson-Dun as your backups work fine to spell Ford and any one of the 3 wings.

    You can easily move Troy out of the mix. Personally I think you could work Price in as the backup PG, especially with Dun back on the court. I would NEVER play Ford with Watson at the 1-2. You could go small with Head at the 2 if need be, and only with Watson at PG.
    It all seems so blatently obvious, why is it we all, well most of us, can see this would work and our coach can't?

    Also, I like your cheese and dimerit buttons, that would be a nice addition to PD I think

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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    He can't just not play the guy either. There are too many reasons to play him. He is a 3 point threat. He does rebound well. He does make alot of money. He did go to a local college. He is a veteran starter in this league. Players don't lose their starting position to injury. His backup is a rookie on a limited playing time schedule. He may be the only big outside of Foster who even understands the defensive scheme.
    Yes. I can admit that there are numerous pressures to play Troy and even rational reasons to play him. He played very well last year and when his 3pt shot is falling it's helpful. That doesn't mean I have to like how much playing time he is getting or think it's best for the team for him to play starters minutes at this point. I don't think Troy is totally useless. That talk is over the top as far as I'm concerned. I'd just like to see him play somewhere between 10-15 minutes most nights, especially when it is clear he shot is not falling. I don't expect it to happen, but I'd like to try it.

    Then again, I'm one of those people that thinks we ought establish a rotation and style of play similar to the one we used during the infamous 5 game winning streak and everyone knows those folks are nutters. So don't mind me.
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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Did I miss something? I thought the defense against the Clippers was pretty strong. Why are we still talking about defense when the problem is offense?

    Please note I think Murphy is far from the solution there, I think what we need and don't have are a couple of guys who can really make a strong move at the basket rather than Yet Another Jump Shooter, but given what we've seen lately defense isn't a good counterargument any more.
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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    It's a valid question is it bad offense now. I personally don't think talking about defense is over. I think the problem is bad defense and bad offense. Well, you can control the defense moreso, imo. I know Count55, disagrees that you would have problems either way based on personnell that you play. It goes back to what Hollinger said over the summer, Pacers don't have two way players.

    I say you can control the defense more, because defense doesn't have an off night.

    Look I get the Charlotte Bobcats and I'm admittedly a Larry Brown kool aid drinker. However, let me say this, if you have to choose between a defensive mindset and an offensive one. Choose defense everytime. It will keep you in games, it will wear down the weaker teams that they've just got beaten by.

    It just reminds me of D Jones when talking about LAST year's Pacers team when he was in Denver. He said they basically didn't worry too much about scoring against them. That kinda makes me sick, really. Since I see Defense as mostly "want to" and pride.

    Anyway, I'll let this go, clearly the offense is struggling, but to me, unless your going to make an "and one" tape, then there's not excuse to not be a defense first franchise.

    Steve Nash isn't walking through that door. You aren't going to run teams off the court offensively.

    So all your doing is letting Danny think it's okay to literally shoot from anywhere at anytime and also teaching the young guys these horrible habits too.

    Lastly, the main reason Bird's tenure at coach worked so well, was COMPLETELY because it followed Larry Brown teaching them how to play defense. I have never doubted this. If Larry Brown would have never demanded defense and backed it up with more than talk. The savvy offensive minded Bird Pacers team could not have been possible.

    This team needs more talent, no doubt, but it also needs a coach who will teach them to "play the right way".

    That means defense and that means playing selflessly.

    That is not what you're getting and you know what- during this transition through the dark embarrassing recent past, I could fool myself into thinking that entertaining was enough and hell even had some substance. Well it's time to move on.

    Now I see that this is actually detrimental to the future of the younger players and even the prime players.

    Ask yourself this. Would Larry Brown put up with this type of bonehead play on offense and lack of pride in defense?

    This takes me to my final, final point. Does Larry Bird the GM understand the things that can build a contender level franchise? If so, will he put a coach in place who will demand the hard things, not just the fun trying to score a bunch of points. I really don't know.

    I actually believe that Obie is a very good coach. I also think he was handed a pile of crap to deal with these last two years and it's time for a new voice. A voice that maybe doesn't have to coddle Brandon Rush or a voice that doesn't have to put up with lack of smart play or defensive mental toughness/pride.

    I'm not saying you go hire a heavy handed tirant, but for the love of all that is sacred, get someone that will not waiver on the mental toughness you have to have to play.

    Guys may hate that kind of coach, but they'll love him when they are winning.

    There's my rant for this week. It kinda just came out as I typed, sorry to side track the thread.

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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Agreed that it'd bad defense and bad offense.

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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I think a significant change for our defense was going from a chunk of our big man minutes going to Granger and Solomon Jones to all going to Troy Murphy. Not only is that a down grade in and of itself, but putting Murphy next to Roy makes Roy worse than he already is.

    Then of course having Danny at the 4 meant you could play Dahntay and Brandon together on the wings more often, which of course helps the defense a lot, too.

    I don't think the offense has ever been that good this year, but with that rotation, the D was certainly better.

    I simply don't believe playing Troy Murphy is worth losing that.

    Now, that non-Murphy team was no world beater. We'd still have a lot of issues. But it'd be better than this, and I think significantly better.
    That lineup was a lot like Philly's last year. They played with Dalembert up front with Thaddeus Young and Igoudala at the forward spots. They gave up a little size but were solid defenders and quick athletes. They weren't great offensively but they generated a lot of turnovers and got plenty of fastbreak/easy shot opportunities because of that.

    Troy simply isn't working out as a starter on this team and with the defensive style that the Pacers are now trying to play. At this point I don't know what JOB has to lose in going back to that 5 man lineup. They're already losing games, at least the other lineup was entertaining and gave Rush and Hibbert plenty of opportunity to play. If they're going to be this bad and lose this much, I'd rather watch the young players with potential get to play 30 minutes a night in the process.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    GOOD GOD THAT'S LARRY BIRD'S MUSIC!

  10. #33
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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    He can't just not play the guy either. There are too many reasons to play him. He is a 3 point threat. He does rebound well. He does make alot of money. He did go to a local college. He is a veteran starter in this league. Players don't lose their starting position to injury. His backup is a rookie on a limited playing time schedule. He may be the only big outside of Foster who even understands the defensive scheme.

    Those are a few reasons I can think of and I don't like the guy.
    Come to think of it, Drew Bledsoe should still be starting for the Patriots.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    It's a valid question is it bad offense now. I personally don't think talking about defense is over. I think the problem is bad defense and bad offense.
    I think part of the reason for the win streak success is that we played guys who have the best shot at playing both ends of the court.

    TJ: Offense only
    Jeff: Defense only
    Troy: Offense only

    During the win streak, the larger minutes were going to

    Watson: Offense and Defense
    Hibbert: Potentially good offense and potentially good defense
    Solo: Good defense and respectable offense

    We had balance and it was working.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Do you honestly never notice when TJ plays good defense, McKeyFan?

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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Do you honestly never notice when TJ plays good defense, McKeyFan?
    Sort of.

    I think the credit he gets is more token. It like, "Wow, did you see that? TJ played some good defense. Give him some credit, man!"
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    IMO, Good team basketball wins position battles more than any single player's ability. So, int he case of Troy Murphy. He has to be benched because he is one of the worst team players in the league.... hands down... you cannot watch 5 mins of his play on the floor without saying .."The first thing I would do to make this team better is get rid of Murphy."
    Regardless of the numbers he puts up... our team cannot play around his numbers...

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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Do you honestly never notice when TJ plays good defense, McKeyFan?
    And I'm not sure I ever see TJ play GOOD defense. Sometimes he plays hard, puts out serious effort, tries to get in front of his man. Sometimes.

    But, even then, his instincts are terrible. He has no sense of the best way to fight through a pick or where his man is in relation to the ball. It's like he never learned that stuff in junior high.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I think part of the reason for the win streak success is that we played guys who have the best shot at playing both ends of the court.

    TJ: Offense only
    Jeff: Defense only
    Troy: Offense only

    During the win streak, the larger minutes were going to

    Watson: Offense and Defense
    Hibbert: Potentially good offense and potentially good defense
    Solo: Good defense and respectable offense

    We had balance and it was working.
    All the more reason JOB should go back to playing these guys and giving them more minutes. Again, I understand his dilemma: experience over youth, slow and methodical defense over quick tempo offense. As much as I've advocated going with experience over youth based moreso on how opponents have beaten the Pacers, I'm also an advocate of going with what was working.

    To that, BlueNGold made a very keen observation when he discussed the minutes played per game during and since the 5-game winning streak in the "Let's Get Clear-Minded about the 5-Game Win Streak" thread. (See post #22 for details) Could it be that in not only reducing the minutes of some key players during that win streak, as well as returning to the vets so soon over players who were proving to be effective, JOB shot himself in the foot? Like everyone else, I've been grappling with what went wrong here. To me, it's either a matter of those players who were returning from injury were injected into the lineup and relied upon too soon/too heavily OR the coach can't seem to rely more on his gut instincts and not strictly go by the numbers.

    I know what I've posted and suggested seem to be a contridiction, but when things turn south so quickly, nothing is out of bounds as far as being held to close scrutiny. As much as it goes against (my own) conventional wisdom, I think asking whether Murphy and Ford are worthy of being starters right now is a legit concern. You also have to ask if sitting Solo and Luther are smart moves as well considering both have preformed well given the limited playing time they've seen.
    Last edited by NuffSaid; 12-12-2009 at 04:03 PM.

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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Just because he's a good (well, usually) jump shooter?

    Is a one-trick pony on offense so valuable to improving our offense that it's worth the damage to the defense?
    The maddening thing is that you can switch out a few adjectives and find the same concerns with Jeff.

    It would be nice to have well rounded, two-way players instead of a mismatched array of specialists that prevent us from filling out a competent lineup.

    If this were a football team, our five-man best offensive unit wouldn't have much overlap with our five-man best defensive unit. But I'm also not convinced our best five-man offense is a great offensive unit and that our best five-man defense is a great defensive unit, either.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  19. #41
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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    The maddening thing is that you can switch out a few adjectives and find the same concerns with Jeff.

    It would be nice to have well rounded, two-way players instead of a mismatched array of specialists that prevent us from filling out a competent lineup.

    If this were a football team, our five-man best offensive unit wouldn't have much overlap with our five-man best defensive unit. But I'm also not convinced our best five-man offense is a great offensive unit and that our best five-man defense is a great defensive unit, either.
    I completely agree, except those are nouns, not adjectives.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Not a big shock people.

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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    As much as I enjoy reading what the players and coaching staff say about the team, I'm getting sick of listening and reading to the same things players and JOB are saying.

    Enough talk. Go out there and win!

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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I completely agree, except those are nouns, not adjectives.


    I typed nouns. Then at the last minute I re-read "one trick pony" and said to myself, that's a adjective for both Jeff and Troy.

    In my defense, I went to Greenwood High School. We ain't learnt English too good their.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  23. #45
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    I suspect several players feel the same way. Better right the ship Jim.

    I have an easy solution for him. Take the exact same roster that played the Wizards and sub Dun in for Granger. Sit everyone else (except Foster) and see what happens.

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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    No offensive rhythm
    The Pacers have been shooting jumpers quickly in their up-tempo offense.
    That mind-set has led to players standing on the perimeter, forcing shots and trying to do things out of their element with the ball.
    That's why the Pacers are averaging only 97 points a game and making 30 percent of their 3-point attempts this season.
    "I'm still not confident we're playing the style that was successful for us to get five wins in a row. That wasn't by luck," Jones said. "We were playing a good style of basketball. It was interesting, it was successful and now it's totally different. We were pushing the ball, getting easy buckets. It seems like we have to work so hard to score now."
    If he could tell the difference between a good shot and a bad shot, or if his offense isn't limited to penetration, I'd believe he has any clue about what he's talking about. Since he doesn't, I'll dismiss this as a low bballIQ player talking about things he doesn't know about.

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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by flox View Post
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    If he could tell the difference between a good shot and a bad shot, or if his offense isn't limited to penetration, I'd believe he has any clue about what he's talking about. Since he doesn't, I'll dismiss this as a low bballIQ player talking about things he doesn't know about.
    Well, he was the driving force for our team during the only stretch where they actually won a few games. I think he knows what he's talking about, and is in the position to know what he's talking about, a little more than an armchair strategist.

    Rather than dismiss his comments, I'll dismiss yours.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Well, he was the driving force for our team during the only stretch where they actually won a few games. I think he knows what he's talking about, and is in the position to know what he's talking about, a little more than an armchair strategist.

    Rather than dismiss his comments, I'll dismiss yours.
    Driving force? Him? Lead the team on the floor? Are you sure?

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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    Quote Originally Posted by flox View Post
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    Driving force? Him? Lead the team on the floor? Are you sure?
    I'm sure. During that 5 game run there was nobody more important than D. Jones.

    Now that is not saying he was head above anyone else either but this guy was for fact the on floor leader. Also I don't think you can discount his offensive production during that time as well. Granted he took some forced unadvised shots, but can you tell me what Pacer did not?

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    Default Re: D. Jones has decided to join Mckeyfan in beating the horse...

    I think with or without Danny, the leaders on this team were becoming D. Jones and I see this in Dunleavy now that he's back. I think this is the case, regardless. Danny doesn't seem to have this quality in my opinion. It's okay, I don't think Reggie actively led teams either. Watch the guys talk to each other next game closely, D Jones and Dunleavy both are the guys talking to the youngsters and the guys getting after people.
    Last edited by Speed; 12-09-2009 at 01:44 PM.

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