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Thread: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

  1. #1
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    There has been a lot of talk about the "five game win streak" that the Pacers enjoyed a few weeks ago.

    Too much of the discussion has been speculation. Not enough hard facts, too little stats to prove one's position on the issue.

    Okay, you people have the right to your opinion. You like the line up of defensively oriented players, you like Roy Hibbert and Dahntay Jones, and you think if they got solid minutes in a line up with Rush and Granger at the four spot, they would do well. Fine.

    But the stats show that this group would not be effective. It's clear that group would never go on a five game win streak.

    Remember, Murphy and Foster are VETERANS and they bring all sorts of intangibles. Murphy is an incredible shooter ("Not just good, but a great shooter" says JOB). Combine that with his rebounds and he is our second best player for sure. That being the case, it is impossible for our team to go on a five game winning streak without Troy Murphy.

    So, no, we haven't gotten the privilege of going on a five game streak, because Troy hasn't worked out his back issues yet. But if we ever have a streak like that, you can bet Murph will be part of it. He's simply one of our best players. And our highest paid. Get real. We could never go on a five game win streak without our highest paid player.

    Foster is phenomenal on defense. Any five game streak would imply a strong defensive effort on our part, and that means Jeff Foster would be involved. Now, that supposed five game win streak some of you have been fantasizing about, the dates you give for that streak are when Jeff Foster was injured. So that's a joke. No win streak without Foster.

    Anyway, my point is that Murph is probably our second best offensive player, and Foster maybe our best defensive player. (No, they can't play the same position at the same time, but stop changing the subject.) And so some of these amateur historians out there referring to a five game win streak need to get real.



    We do NOT win five games in a row without our best defensive player and our second best offensive player. It can't be done.



    Here's another thing. That line up you mentioned. Besides Granger, no one can score. Dahntay Jones, don't you know? He's a one dimensional defensive specialist. He can't score lots of points in a game, much less five games in a row. What I'm telling you is that he is a journeyman NBA player. He may have led Duke in scoring one year, but that's not the pros and Duke is kind of a marginal team and coach compared to the likes of, say, Kentucky and Rick Pitino.

    Anyway, there was never a five game win streak. If there had been one, Dahntay Jones would have been the second leading scorer, and he can't score. The stats show that. And the Nuggets didn't want to resign him. It's obvious.



    Also, regarding this five game win streak so many of you keep referring to (as if it actually happened!), that means Roy Hibbert was starting and getting a lot of minutes. Don't you know? Hibbert can't guard smaller centers. Actually, most centers are smaller than he is, and in fact he can't guard any of them. Nothing personal against Roy, it's just the stats. It's simply the facts. Roy can't guard the pick and roll, and, well, pretty much every game the other team runs the pick and roll all game, and so Roy can't really play in those games.

    So, a five game winning streak would imply that Roy was on the court some of the time. Of course, the other team would have been running pick and rolls, and well, we would have gotten completely wasted. So, there never was a five game win streak, because Roy can't defend pretty much all other front court players in the league. It's obvious to those who are knowledgeable in facts and statistics.



    Anyway, sure, we'd all like to see the Pacers go on a nice win streak. Who wouldn't? But it is time for all you dreamers to get back to cold, hard reality. Remember the hard facts. Stick with the stats, like good ol' coach O'brien.

    There never was a five game win streak. It's statistically impossible.
    Last edited by McKeyFan; 12-06-2009 at 08:44 PM.
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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    This is just drivel.

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    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    I think that there should be one thread dedicated for all of Troy and Jeff haters to post their illogical rantings about the five game winning streak. Add JOB haters to that thread also. Seriously, how many similiar I hate Troy, JOB, Jeff threads does one board need?
    Last edited by GuffeyRay; 12-06-2009 at 05:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    Really, we should only be focusing on the Boston game. I don't really take much away from beating the Knicks, Nets, Warriors, or Wizards. We can still beat any of those teams on any given night. Based on everything I've seen this year, that Boston game was an anomaly.
    "Ever wonder what it's like to wonder what it's like to wonder, they get up out of bed but can't awaken from their slumber, they know what they've been told by those who know what they've been told, you see this hand me down knowledge generated ages ago, and I know what they've been told because I've been told the same thing, I had to broaden my horizons to expand on greater things..." Many Styles

  7. #5

    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    McKeyFan,

    Even I have to be fair about the 5-game win streak and see it for what it really was. At a time when Murphy, Foster and Dunleavy were all out the Pacers did play like a more cohesive unit and did win those five games with passion, alot of energy and stronger defense. Granted, they won against some teams who at the time were still struggling themselves, but the point is they won. And even I, someone who sees how we've lost recently with less experienced players, would have stayed with the lineup that was winning until they showed they could no longer carry the team to victory. And I'm not talking just one loss; I'm talking 3 or more. But JOB never gave that lineup a chance. Instead, he went away from what was working for something that apparently is NOT working.

    I understand his dilemma. I really do, but I'm also a practical man who believes in the montra, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it!" Clearly, the 5-game winning streak showed that until the Pacers lost using it, what they had going wasn't broken. So, why mess with it?

    And let's put the 5-game win streak in perspect as far as when and how it ended: It's true that the Knicks beat the Pacers in the 4Q by going with their veterans, BUT we don't know that the group that won five games would have lost 2, 3, 4 games in a row. Had JOB given them the chance, that younger, more energetic group could have bounced back immediately from that lose and gone on to win their next game or two, or three. I believe the point everyone who understands the significance of that winning streak is trying to make is clear: Until that group lost a game, you don't mess with what was working!!

    Unfortunately, what we have seen and now know is that since Murphy, Foster and Dunleavy have come back, we've lost all but one game. These are suppose to be our most experienced veterans. And since the Pacers have been getting beating by vets...

    IMO, JOB has alot to answer for. He'd better find the right mix to get this team back to winning fast. Otherwise, he's outta here!!!

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    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    Quote Originally Posted by GuffeyRay View Post
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    I think that there should be one thread dedicated for all of Troy and Jeff haters to post their illogical rantings about the five game winning streak. Add JOB haters to that thread also. Seriously, how many similiar I hate Troy, JOB, Jeff threads does one board need?
    More and more until the message gets across. You can't say we wouldn't be blasting these guys if we were winning w/ them, because we will NEVER win with them.
    "I keep wondering the same thing. Last week they had the 4th worst record in the league, had an 11.9 percent chance of winning the lottery and were in line to land a franchise type player like Derrick Favors or DeMarcus Cousins. This week? They have a 1.7 percent chance of winning the lottery, have the 8th worst record and are in line to draft Cole Aldrich or Greg Monroe. Way to go Jim O'Brien. Rest Danny Granger the rest of the season (if it isn't too late) and give Josh McRoberts lots of minutes. That ought to do it." - Chad Ford on winning meaningless games

    Way to go Jim, you may have just put our franchise back another 4+ years.

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    Whale Shepherd cdash's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    Quote Originally Posted by GuffeyRay View Post
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    I think that there should be one thread dedicated for all of Troy and Jeff haters to post their illogical rantings about the five game winning streak. Add JOB haters to that thread also. Seriously, how many similiar I hate Troy, JOB, Jeff threads does one board need?
    Let's just segregate the board. All the haters post in one place, and all the sunshiners post in another.

    It's a messageboard people. It wouldn't be very informative (or enjoyable) if everyone had the same opinion. When you have the 6th worst record in the league and are mired in a losing streak, you have to expect this sort of thing. Honestly, I'd be a lot more concerned if everyone on here was content with the way this team is playing.

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    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    This is just drivel.
    No, it's just over-done.

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    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    It fits all the criteria for drivel.

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    The light, not the lie. kester99's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    Quote Originally Posted by NuffSaid View Post
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    And even I, someone who sees how we've lost recently with less experienced players, would have stayed with the lineup that was winning until they showed they could no longer carry the team to victory. And I'm not talking just one loss; I'm talking 3 or more. But JOB never gave that lineup a chance. Instead, he went away from what was working for something that apparently is NOT working.
    Without taking a side here, at least let me point out one fact (again). JOB DID stay with that line-up starting, for exactly three more games. Which we lost.

    Granger, Jones, Hibbert, Rush and Ford started the first three games of the winning streak. Watson replaced TJ for the 4th. TJ again started the 5th. All wins.

    Then the same 5...Granger, Jones, Hibbert, Rush and Ford...started games 9, 10, and 11. All losses.

    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/notes.pdf

    On page 5 of 12 in the linked document above.
    Last edited by kester99; 12-06-2009 at 06:30 PM.
    [~]) ... Cheers! Go Pacers!

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    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    I say we go ahead and extend Troy's contract right now before someone offers him the max (he's that good) and we have to match it. TJ certainly deserves a big raise as well.

    The 2 year JOB extension is not nearly enough for the 2+ seasons of excellence we've already seen, extend him a few more years as well.

    With out these guys we might not continue to fill Conseco with all the rowdy and crazily optimistic fans we seen so far this season.

    Who says I can't be a sunshiner!
    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    Quote Originally Posted by flox View Post
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    It fits all the criteria for drivel.

    naw drivel is unsubstansiated oneliners, not a well tbought out slightly over the top sarcastic piece of art

    two totally different things
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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    It's putting lies in other people's mouths.

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    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    It's putting lies in other people's mouths.
    naw that is either indoctrination or pron
    So Long And Thanks For All The Fish.

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  23. #15

    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    This isn't an argument. This is just contradiction!


    Now, somebody, please follow this with, "No it isn't!"

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    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    No it isn't.

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    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    This isn't an argument. This is just contradiction!

    .
    Is not!

    (Dangit, ATC)

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    If you guys love Troy Murphy so much, why don't you marry him?!? Q.E.D. I rest my case!
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    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Let's just segregate the board. All the haters post in one place, and all the sunshiners post in another.

    It's a messageboard people. It wouldn't be very informative (or enjoyable) if everyone had the same opinion. When you have the 6th worst record in the league and are mired in a losing streak, you have to expect this sort of thing. Honestly, I'd be a lot more concerned if everyone on here was content with the way this team is playing.
    How many ways can one say, I hate Murphy without being redundant? I wonder how long this many threads praising Troy or JOB would stay before being deleted or merged into one thread? Not long would be my guess.

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    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    No, it's just over-done.
    So, should there be stickys for everything primarily related to JOB, TJ, Murph, and Rush respectively at this point with all recent threads relating to them consolidated under each one separately? Kind of like the Fire O'Brien megathread from last year, but with one for each of these individuals?

    I am at least partially being sarcastic here, but there have been a lot of complaints about all of these players in separate threads for some time now.

    For those who don't wish to read or participate, it becomes easier for them to ignore things until they form their own opinions without interacting with all of us Negative Neds and Nellies (a group of which I am a long standing, though not charter, member) who continue to see evidence of the fact that portions of the sky have, in fact, come to rest on the surface of the Earth in a rather abrupt fashion, and who, as we cast our collective gaze skyward, cannot help but notice that other pieces seem to be under an undue amount of influence of the gravitational pull emanating from the very center of the Earth and are, indeed, posing an additional threat to do the same in the very near future, with potentially devastating impact.

    Not likely a good idea, but I thought I would throw it out there, anyway.

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    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    Some threads already are merged with older ones on some of these topics. We might need to be more strict about that.

  31. #21
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    It's putting lies in other people's mouths.
    Dude, you need to lighten up and get yourself a sense of humor.

    I don't comment on the Pacers professionally. It's just an amateur gig for me, and I feel free to ruffle feathers at will. So, if you don't mind, I'll just go ahead and speak freely, share my opinions, and even have some fun with satire now and then.

    If this particular piece seems to bother you, well then, as the old saying goes, "A hit dog howls."
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  32. #22
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    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    Quote Originally Posted by kester99 View Post
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    Without taking a side here, at least let me point out one fact (again). JOB DID stay with that line-up starting, for exactly three more games. Which we lost.

    Granger, Jones, Hibbert, Rush and Ford started the first three games of the winning streak. Watson replaced TJ for the 4th. TJ again started the 5th. All wins.

    Then the same 5...Granger, Jones, Hibbert, Rush and Ford...started games 9, 10, and 11. All losses.

    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/notes.pdf

    On page 5 of 12 in the linked document above.
    As Hicks said, this is over-done...but this bears a response.

    Who starts is not relevant. Who gets minutes matters. Murphy played significant minutes and...consistent with his last place seasonal plus-minus on the team...he was minus 15 in his 21 minutes on the floor against Charlotte. That means that the Pacers were minus 1 in the 27 minutes Troy was not on the floor. However, you want to interpret that is fine, but stressing who starts misses the point entirely.

    Also, context matters. The Pacers beat the Knicks a few days prior...and were beating them until they ran out of gas on a back to back. Short bodies and under those circumstances...that's not surprising. Then, we competed but lost to Lebron and the Cavs by 10...a team near the top of the league. That's not unexpected regardless for a .500 team...so that gets thrown out.

    The bottom line is, now this team is on another 5 game streak...one loss of which that was to one of those supposed cup cakes from the winning streak. ....oh, maybe it was just an aberration that we trounced a team that just trounced us with our "better players".

    Enjoy the season guys....

  33. #23
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    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    Quote Originally Posted by GuffeyRay View Post
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    How many ways can one say, I hate Murphy without being redundant? I wonder how long this many threads praising Troy or JOB would stay before being deleted or merged into one thread? Not long would be my guess.
    It's not just one person, it's a collection of people saying it. I can't comment on how long praise threads would stay, because I honestly have no idea. If I had to guess, I'd say they would be allowed to run their course like the negative threads.

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    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    Whatever happened to someone starting the annual "Hottest Pacemate" thread?

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    Default Re: Let's get clear minded about the win streak

    Quote Originally Posted by kester99 View Post
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    Without taking a side here, at least let me point out one fact (again). JOB DID stay with that line-up starting, for exactly three more games. Which we lost.

    Granger, Jones, Hibbert, Rush and Ford started the first three games of the winning streak. Watson replaced TJ for the 4th. TJ again started the 5th. All wins.

    Then the same 5...Granger, Jones, Hibbert, Rush and Ford...started games 9, 10, and 11. All losses.

    http://www.nba.com/pacers/news/notes.pdf

    On page 5 of 12 in the linked document above.
    I stand corrected.

    So, the question becomes, "What, if anything, changed so drastically that put this team on a losing skid so quickly?"

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