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Thread: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

  1. #1
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    1. The team goes on another five game win streak with the vet heavy lineups, or any lineup for that matter. Heck, make it four.

    2. O'Brien returns to the lineup and strategy that won us five games in a row and we LOSE five games in a row. Make it four, or even three.

    The second option can't happen until Granger returns. But it would include heavy doses of Hibbert, Watson, DJones, Rush, Tyler, and Solo, with Granger playing the four.

    It's likely that we will never get to see Jim O 'Stubborn return to the five game win streak formula in order to retest it. Why? We are left to conclude that he:

    1. Thinks it is silly to not play vets and guys with great stats like Murphy. In other words, too stubborn to try it.
    2. Is being told by top brass to keep the value high by playing big contract players.
    3. Has some kind of relationship with the vets that makes it difficult for him to bench them.
    4. Is personally insulted by the talk of returning to the win streak, offended by comments by DJones, etc. In other words, it's not an ideological problem of preferring vets or insisting on certain players that compliment an up tempo system, it's a personal grudge thing.

    I can't think of another reason. I mean, there's probably fifty funny ones like JOB and Uncle Buck making a bet to see who can defend insanity the longest.

    So, until one of those two things happen, and they may never, I will continue to invoke the five-game win streak as evidence that this team CAN win games regularly but the coach refuses to allow them to try.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    I truly believe the "lack" of murphy had something to do with it, I don't care what anyone says. I won't just dismiss it as a fluke. Our defense was clearly better during that stretch, and that was with Hibbert getting heavy minutes too.
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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    IMO the 5-game win streak is vastly overrated (other than the fact that 5 wins are 5 wins). Aside from Boston, the rest of that 5-game win streak was against four teams with a combined 35-92 record. Big whoop.

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    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Cherokee View Post
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    IMO the 5-game win streak is vastly overrated (other than the fact that 5 wins are 5 wins). Aside from Boston, the rest of that 5-game win streak was against four teams with a combined 35-92 record. Big whoop.
    But we haven't done a very good job since the streak of beating teams even with losing records.

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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthread.php?t=48822

    i say no it wasnt a fluke THAT TEAM did what it took to win, hustle and play defense......that team played defense and seemed as if they were hungry to win.

    i believe we were one of the top teams in blocks........ and its seems like the younger guys have almost given up........why???????? who knows, maybe because coach automaticaly put vetreans coming off injuies right back in the starting line up and taking minues from the young guys who were winning.

    my starters: watson, rush, d.jones, granger, hibbert
    bench: price, head, dun, tyler,solo/jeff............IMO.......that team equals wins
    this was my post on the other 5 win thread and i still firmly believe it wasn't a fluke

    simply put we have stopped playing that style of bball and we've suffered.
    we have stopped playing the guys who played that style of of bball and we've suffered.

    IMO if the young guys don't get playing time soon they will want out of here pretty soon..........and i dont blame them. i mean the vets aren't winning the young guys at least play with heart..........3 of our vets are heartless t.j., murphy and dunleavy......without granger they are the leaders and thats what they show and you expect the young guys trying to learn from the vets and show heart.................yeah right

    my opinion bench the vets.............play the young guys........like i've said before we can't do any worse.

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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    1. The team goes on another five game win streak with the vet heavy lineups, or any lineup for that matter. Heck, make it four.

    2. O'Brien returns to the lineup and strategy that won us five games in a row and we LOSE five games in a row. Make it four, or even three.

    The second option can't happen until Granger returns. But it would include heavy doses of Hibbert, Watson, DJones, Rush, Tyler, and Solo, with Granger playing the four.

    It's likely that we will never get to see Jim O 'Stubborn return to the five game win streak formula in order to retest it. Why? We are left to conclude that he:

    1. Thinks it is silly to not play vets and guys with great stats like Murphy. In other words, too stubborn to try it.
    2. Is being told by top brass to keep the value high by playing big contract players.
    3. Has some kind of relationship with the vets that makes it difficult for him to bench them.
    4. Is personally insulted by the talk of returning to the win streak, offended by comments by DJones, etc. In other words, it's not an ideological problem of preferring vets or insisting on certain players that compliment an up tempo system, it's a personal grudge thing.

    I can't think of another reason. I mean, there's probably fifty funny ones like JOB and Uncle Buck making a bet to see who can defend insanity the longest.

    So, until one of those two things happen, and they may never, I will continue to invoke the five-game win streak as evidence that this team CAN win games regularly but the coach refuses to allow them to try.

    Well, I don't see a 5 game win streak this season or next... not as long as Jimmy is at the helm with Bird guarding his back. I have resigned myself to not expecting wins, but just wanting to see the players play as a team like they did in that infamous 5 game win streak. Does that say how bad this team is that Bird constructed with James O'Stubborn coaching it!?!?

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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    Great post, McKeyfan.

    Also, just in fairness: that same team DID lose a game... they're not undefeated without Murphy. So nobody's saying the team would currently be 31-0. But I find it hard to believe that team wouldn't be better than 9-22, especially since this is supposed to be the easy part of our schedule.
    Last edited by Anthem; 01-03-2010 at 07:18 AM.
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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    I know the TWolves are bad, but we are up 62-34 without our starting PG and starting PF in the game. Combine that with the fact our all-star SF is not dressed...and Dunleavy is not 100%.

    Those who don't see how more athleticism and energy affects the game, need to watch closely.

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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    Yep. I guess some of us are just morons for thinking that somehow you had the potential for better overall basketball by relying a lot more on Rush, Roy, McRoberts, and Price with your "vets" being mainly Watson, Head and DJones.

    It would have been nice to have at least 1 more big available, either Foster or Tyler, and even then IMO McRoberts is at a point that he can outplay the older Foster and the less athletic Tyler.

    How can the writing not be on the wall for Troy and TJ? And frankly while this was a "better" game for Dunleavy, he still looked iffy and was often killed on defense, not to mention the pass that darn near bounced off his head to start the game or the point blank layup miss (badly).

    Minny isn't great, but with Love back it's not like they are drastically worse than teams like Memphis. And Love had a good enough game to foul out two of the better Pacers defenders.

    Roy had a strong game going right at Jefferson who is considered a pretty strong center.


    The entire game the repeating thought in my brain was "finally, now was that so bad"? It was pulling teeth and took 3 frontline injuries and painfully bad PG play for 100 games, but we finally got to see a rotation close to what we are looking for complete with tons of play working off Roy's low post game.

    Forget the win, let's talk about how much more enjoyable the quality and style of basketball was.

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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Great post, Hicks.
    ..... thanks?

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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    ..... thanks?
    I have no idea what you're talking about.
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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    I will continue to invoke the five-game win streak as evidence that this team CAN win games regularly but the coach refuses to allow them to try.


    To be honest my head is about to explode.

    Lets see who we beat in the 5 game winning streak, plus one I guess is what it will be called.

    Nets
    Knicks - who were playing terible at the time
    Wizards at home, talk about a team in turmoil
    Warriors at home - a truly awful team
    Celtics - at home a quality win, no matter how bad the Celtis were that night
    T-Wolves at home after playing the night before.

    Besides the Celts, what is the winning %of the other 5 teams, lese than 30% and yet those 5 gams plus 1 are used as the model of how things can turn around.

    I am at a loss to even argue this anymore, seems surreal to me, I really at times think I am living in the Twlight Zone. I've used every argument already and yet the 5-game winning streak legend continues to grow and yet is changes over time. If you go back and look at those games Ford was perhaps the most important player in 3 of the 5 games he played great against the Celts, Wiazards and hit three huge shots late at NY. And yet so many use Ford as the example of a player who needs to sit. If these 5 games are the model then Ford needs to play 40 minutes per game and his play during that time proves it. Isolating 5 gamesof an 82 games season is absurd of course.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-03-2010 at 10:19 AM.

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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    I am at a loss to even argue this anymore, seems surreal to me, I really at times think I am living in the Twlight Zone. I've used every argument already and yet the 5-game winning streak legend continues to grow and yet is changes over time.
    LOL, it is amazing

    As I said in an earlier post it is the most glorified "5 game winning streak" in the history of the Indiana Pacers!

    Really to me what was a lot more telling was the 8 game losing streak

    How come thats not discussed?
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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    I have no idea what you're talking about.
    Don't make me change it back to its original form.

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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    The reason the argument doesn't hold up that the 5-win streak was meaningless because of the opponents is because subsequently we played those teams again and LOST to them. Yes, ONE of those was with the same group, but the rest, the majority, were not. And the one that was, we had to shoot ourselves in the foot to lose.

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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    The reason the argument doesn't hold up that the 5-win streak was meaningless because of the opponents is because subsequently we played those teams again and LOST to them. Yes, ONE of those was with the same group, but the rest, the majority, were not. And the one that was, we had to shoot ourselves in the foot to lose.
    The most significant thing about the streak is that it was actually a streak. 1 or 2 games in a row, could be considered a fluke, 5 games will not

    The bad thing is we probably will never see that line up again

    The reason we won with that line up to me is simple, it was our best mix of athleticism, defense , and scoring,

    Ford, Jones, Rush, Granger. Hibbert

    Loved it, and apparently so did a lot of the players
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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    Here's the thing with Ford. And I noticed it in the preseason.

    Ford is a bipolar player, or was, in the preseason.

    If you track his +/- numbers, they strongly correlate with whether the team wins or not.

    Which suggests that with Ford in the game, the team goes as Ford goes.

    He was decent during that five game stretch. The Pacers won. He was terrible though, for most of the rest of the year.

    And here's the thing, it is awful for the team to have to depend on something like that. Watson and Price. Solid. They don't dominate the ball, and they aren't up and down. Take Ford out of the lineup, and suddenly the team game isn't dependent on what Ford does, it's depended on what the team does.

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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Forget the win, let's talk about how much more enjoyable the quality and style of basketball was.
    This. Forget the win is right. They were playing like a team out there and the oncourt chemistry was visibly much much better. I don't understand how buck fails to see this.
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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    To be honest my head is about to explode.

    Lets see who we beat in the 5 game winning streak, plus one I guess is what it will be called................
    In the NBA, there is no such thing as a meaningless 5 game winning streak.

    If I thought you could be convinced, I'd explain why the winning streak was significant and the concrete differences in our play during the streak and otherwise. But I don't.
    Last edited by imawhat; 01-03-2010 at 04:15 PM.

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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    In the NBA, there is no such thing as a meaningless 5 game winning streak.

    If I thought you could be convinced, I'd explain why the winning streak was significant and the concrete differences in our play during the streak and otherwise. But I don't.
    Every game is meaningful - that is correct. The T-Wolves game was meaningful, and the Knicks game was meaningful. Every game has equal weight, every 5-game stretch of games has equal weight - but the key word is equal. You cannot isolate 5 games and act that that could be duplicated over a longer period of time.

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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Every game is meaningful - that is correct. The T-Wolves game was meaningful, and the Knicks game was meaningful. Every game has equal weight, every 5-game stretch of games has equal weight - but the key word is equal. You cannot isolate 5 games and act that that could be duplicated over a longer period of time.
    Is that what anyone is saying about the 5 game win streak? That's not what I've been getting from the debate.
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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Is that what anyone is saying about the 5 game win streak? That's not what I've been getting from the debate.
    The debate has been varied, so it is hard to keep track of. One part of the debate is we won 5 games straight and then Murphy came back into the lineup and we started losing. So he is to blame. Sure no one says that and yet they will suggest that when they post the pacers record with Murph and without Murph.

    it gets very confusing when it comes to Ford though. Most don't want Ford to start or even play much if any, and yet Ford was perhaps the most important player during the streak and he certainly was in 3 of the 5 games.

    Another aspect is many suggest the style of play was different - this is mentioned by D. Jones. I personally don't see the different style many are suggesting.

    Every team goes through good and bad stretches of play - but you have to even it out. The Celtics just lost 3 straight games - sure each of those games count in the standings and who knows they might not have homecourt against certain teams because of those three games, but those three games will have no lasting impact on the season as a whole.

    Pacers went through a 5 games stretch where they played weak opponents and they played well enough to win those games - it was just a 5 game stretch - I just don't see anything meaningful or significant in those games. Put another way 5 games in the NBA represents 6% of the season. 6% of an NFL season is 1 game -do we ever place that much significance on 1 game ion the NFL
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-04-2010 at 09:29 AM.

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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The debate has been varied, so it is hard to keep track of. One part of the debate is we won 5 games straight and then Murphy came back into the lineup and we started losing. So he is to blame. Sure no one says that and yet they will suggest that when they post the pacers record with Murph and without Murph.

    it gets very confusing when it comes to Ford though. Most don't want Ford to start or even play much if any, and yet Ford was perhaps the most important player during the streak and he certainly was in 3 of the 5 games.

    Another aspect is many suggest the style of play was different - this is mentioned by D. Jones. I personally don't see the different style many are suggesting.

    Every team goes through good and bad stretches of play - but you have to even it out. The Celtics just lost 3 straight games - sure each of those games count in the standings and who knows they might not have homecourt against certain teams because of those three games, but those three games will have no lasting impact on the season as a whole.

    Pacers went through a 5 games stretch where they played weak opponents and they played well enough to win those games - it was just a 5 game stretch - I just don't see anything meaningful or significant in those games. Put another way 5 games in the NBA represents 6% of the season. 6% of an NFL season is 1 game -do we ever place that much significance on 1 game ion the NFL
    I saw in the other thread where you mention that this issue has got you as riled up as anything has since 2000.

    Well, me too. But for the opposite reason, I guess.

    First, your premise that TJ Ford was key to the five game streak. I disagree with that. It's not my recollection. I recall Watson being the more important point guard. I don't have stats or tivo in front of me, so I can only argue by memory.

    What's clear in my memory, and backed by current events, is that TJ's defense was a limiting factor for the team. And it was Watson's defense, along with his ability to distribute the ball, that helped the winning, not TJ.

    That five games streak looked a lot like the Minny game: guys moving well, finding each other for good assists, running for loose balls, tipping out rebounds, helping out on defense, blocking a lot of shots.

    It's an intangible, but a huge and very noticeable one. Without TJ and Murph on the court, there is a sense of "we can make this happen" on defense and "let's pass this around for a good shot" on offense.

    What was Dahntay talking about with "style"? One thing could be heavy use of Hibbert, giving us a post up threat and an effective inside out offense. Also, the aggressive defense causes turnovers, leading to fast breaks.

    But mostly its a mindset, which may be a better word than "style." It's clear they have the mindset when that group plays. They believe that can actually compete on the defensive side, and that they can actually work for a good shot on the offensive side (not just jack a long shot or watch TJ go one on one).

    As I noted in another thread, this crew got shellacked last night against the Knicks but won handily against the Wolves. That's .500, a ton better than what we've been seeing. Let's give them a few more games to prove whether they can keep up this .500 pace, since the five game streak "never happened," (well it was against all terrible teams).

    Except the Celtics. That game actually never happened.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    Ford's 5 game stats.
    1) At New York - played 28 minutes, scored 16 points, including 6 huge points in the last 2 minutes to seal the win

    2) Wizards - 40 mins - 18 pts, 10 rebs. Go back and read Peck's comments after this game and how he described how well Ford played. I was at this game and Ford was our best player. Peck made several comments about how good Ford's defense was on Gilbert

    3 - G. State - injured only played 4 mins

    4) Celts - just coming back from injury - 17 mins , 10 pts

    5) At NJ - played 32 minutes 7 pts, 6 rebs, 4 assists.


    The biggest factor against the Wolves - the Wolves played a horrible 1st half, and the Pacers were on fire from three point range. The second half the Wolves clearly outplayed the Pacers - outscoring the P's by 17 points . I don't think that was a good game. Sure, if the pacers can hit 10 threes in most games they will have a chance to be in the games. But play that way tomorrow night and it is a double digit loss to the Magic - assuming the Magic are near what they normally are


    The group that played the past two games is not the same group that played during the 5 game winning streak. so I don't see how any comparisons are be drawn
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 01-04-2010 at 10:21 AM.

  33. #25

    Default Re: I will stop invoking the 5 game win streak when . . .

    I thought TJ played quite well in those games, especially on defense. I remember being pleased with our PGs. I think the biggest key to that winning streak was we had our best defensive players out there, not just the starters, but the bench as well.
    We had no Murph or Dunleavy, and there were scrappers at all positions. Danny at the 4 especially made the team quick. It was definately small ball minus Hibbert and I wonder how much the matchups were just more favorable for those teams we played.

    At any rate, to discount our team's play during the 5 game win streak compared to the crap we have seen since is unrealistic, or even just up to Danny injury. The difference is night and day. Whether that be Murph and Dunleavy or a coaching strategy change, or maybe just the coach's lack of confidence in his team that was playing so well caused the players to be apathetic, something went horribly wrong after the 5 game win streak.

    Also can we really compare the Celtics 3 game losing streak to our 5 game win streak? except as they are complete opposites? Celtics were without Rondo, Paul and Garnett. Omg, they lost 3 games, who could've guessed that would happen? We were actually missing our supposed key players too (Murph, Dunleavy, Foster) yet played the best basketball of the season. Go figure.
    Last edited by PaceBalls; 01-04-2010 at 10:19 AM.

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