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Thread: The T.J. hate must stop

  1. #51
    Boom Baby! QuickRelease's Avatar
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by PostArtestEra View Post
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    First, where are you getting those statistics? Second, if Finley leaves Nash, he has an easy lefty layup.

    That is beside the point, though. Getting into the air can help draw defenders and lead to easy buckets. Watch Sportscenter any night and you are likely to see a bevy of these plays. I'm not saying that this it is always a good decision, however, I am saying that the statistics you provided are, to put it nicely, egregiously inaccurate.
    Important also to note that Nash is one of, if not the, best passing point guard in the game right now. TJ is not. But I agree that TJ would look worlds better apart from the O'brien factor.

  2. #52
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyProdigy View Post
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    the point is, he was good, verry good on TWO other teams. two other teams that had set plays, good coaching and preperation. so you know that the talent was there for TWO full seasons...and everybody on this board is fixated on just what they see here in indy and draw terrible, bias opions. no offense. tj ford has proven he can be a good point guard. so he is a good point guard, just not in the right system.

    but i agree with this guy, his turnovers 'habits' and 'terrible' ability are horrifically overexaggerrated on this board.
    Was and is are two very different things.

    Don't get me wrong, I don't think TJ is as bad as he has shown the past two years, but if he is a legitimately good point guard, he wouldn't do a lot of the things he does (the jumping in the air to pass, not running the offense, the stupid mid-range jumpers over taller guys, his insistence on still shooting threes even though he has proven he can't make them, etc). To an extent, you can blame the system, but TJ has passed that threshold.

  3. #53
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by IndyProdigy View Post
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    the point is, he was good, verry good on TWO other teams.
    Which two teams?

    Seems to me you can't count Milwaukee, where he was replaced as the starter, or Toronto, where he was replaced as the starter.

    What you've got is a below-average starter (or more correctly, an average backup) who fools you with a brief honeymoon period.

    You really need more than quickness to be a starting PG in the NBA for an extended period of time.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  4. #54
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Which two teams?

    Seems to me you can't count Milwaukee, where he was replaced as the starter, or Toronto, where he was replaced as the starter.

    What you've got is a below-average starter (or more correctly, an average backup) who fools you with a brief honeymoon period.

    You really need more than quickness to be a starting PG in the NBA for an extended period of time.
    Both of your "replace" stories are utter BS - they were caused by injury.

    How many times do we have to go over this?
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

    “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

  5. #55
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    The T.J. dribble into trouble, one legged fade jumper must stop
    That's more like it. I knew the title of this thread had potential, I just had to go looking for it.

    Allen Iverson leaves his feet to pass more often than any player in history. He's also the biggest turnover machine. That's all you need to know.
    Fred Jones called....he's got a bone to pick with your ranking system.

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  7. #56
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    don’t leave your feet without knowing where you’re going with the ball."
    As Katz points out, you actually can effectively leave your feet to make a pass. But the caveat here is no small thing and amplifies the real issue at hand...knowing what you plan to do next. Even when he still has his dribble TJ rarely seems to have a plan.

    Nash intentionally draws defenders to create lanes, he wants you to rotate and if he jumps it's usually his plan of attack all along. He's not up there figuring things out, he's up there completing a plan he came up with 5 seconds earlier when he saw you bite a fake on a double screen or something.

  8. #57
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Don't redirect the hate from Troy Murphy. TJ is second in line.

  9. #58
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    Both of your "replace" stories are utter BS - they were caused by injury.

    How many times do we have to go over this?
    I guess its not really a fair statement. After all, he started 70 of the 72 games he played the next season for the Bucks, which seemed to be enough to convince them they'd rather have Mo Williams over him during the subsequent offseason.

    Same difference.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  10. #59
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Don't redirect the hate from Troy Murphy. TJ is second in line.
    Can they be 1A and 1B?

    Kinda like a Clark Kellogg- Herb Williams frontcourt from Hell?
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  11. #60
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Can they be 1A and 1B?

    Kinda like a Clark Kellogg- Herb Williams frontcourt from Hell?
    That's good enough for me.

    Originally, I didn't think Ford was as bad as you described from day 1...but you pegged him perfectly. d_c also nailed Murphy from day 1.

    If you know where to look on this site, you can find the truth.

  12. #61
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I guess its not really a fair statement. After all, he started 70 of the 72 games he played the next season for the Bucks, which seemed to be enough to convince them they'd rather have Mo Williams over him during the subsequent offseason.

    Same difference.
    It's never fair to mention his two trades without a single reference to his medical history, which is what you've done repeatedly.

    "T.J. Ford sucks, why else would he have been traded twice?" This song is getting boring and old.

    His situation is more complicated than that.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

    “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

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  14. #62
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    The difference is that you believe he lost his spot because of injury, and I beleive he lost his spot because he wasn't as good as his backup. I don't think his injuries matter. He didn't lose his spot to Jack because of injury and he won't eventually lose his spot to Watson due to injury.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  16. #63
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    The difference is that you believe he lost his spot because of injury, and I beleive he lost his spot because he wasn't as good as his backup. I don't think his injuries matter. He didn't lose his spot to Jack because of injury and he won't eventually lose his spot to Watson due to injury.
    In both instances, the team had needs elsewhere that could be filled by trading either of their capable guards. Nevermind that the backup was not likely to develop without floor time, which the injury provided., No injury, no development. So after TJ comes back, now there are two perfectly available guards, and one of them has a possible spinal condition.

    Who do you trade, and what do you get in return? Again, it's far more complicated than you are saying. Both teams traded the more talented (but risky) PG in order to fill another team need.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

    “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

  17. #64
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    We should also remember that taking the streaky, risky PG was our pennace for getting rid of the $20 million/year walking missed fadeaway.

    Again, we weren't getting the world's greatest PG. We were getting rid of something, too.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

    “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

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  19. #65
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Pennance.....that's a good way of putting it.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  20. #66

    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Anyone else notice how much TJ is playing off the ball this year? I've seen him pass the ball off and stand in the corner a few times too many. That's never been his game. 14 and 6 is realistic, but the offense has sucked the life out of him.
    basketbawful.com- The best of the worst of professional basketball. And there's a lot of it.

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  22. #67
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    We should also remember that taking the streaky, risky PG was our pennace for getting rid of the $20 million/year walking missed fadeaway.

    Again, we weren't getting the world's greatest PG. We were getting rid of something, too.
    What were you saying about injuries?
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  23. #68
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    I think the discussion about whether other PGs have some of the same flaws as TJ leaves out the question of whether other successful PGs have as many of the flaws.

    Here's my list:

    1) Can't see the court through traffic - this is not always due to height, it most often manifests when he has his head down during a drive to the basket.

    2) Leaves his feet to pass - already beaten to death.

    3) Can't handle the ball when dribbling low - when TJ dribbles below mid-thigh (i.e. as soon as he has to bend his knees or lean) he is likely to lose control of the ball. He might fumble it back into a dribble, get it taken away, dribble it off his leg, flat-hand a pass, or whatever. At best it fouls up his rhythm, at worst it is a turnover or bad pass.

    4) Can't pass to other players in their rhythm - the PG you want is someone who not only distributes the ball but gets it to the other guy at the right height and at the right point in his stride so that the options for that player are in sync with the way the body is already going. In all fairness, this is not all on TJ, as there is no consistent spacing or expected receiver positions due to the "free-flow" offense. However, it is still the job of the PG.
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  24. #69
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    I saw Earl drive into someone else's defender with the ball in transition last game. It was with a purpose, it was basically a pick to get a guy open. More accurately, it was making the opposition double him to get a teammate and open shot. Point Guard move.

    I don't think this comes naturally to TJ. He can get his own, not for someone else, instinctively. Part of it is that his teammates aren't good at being on the receiving end of this either. When TJ and Rasho played together early last year, Rasho the sloth is smart and would always roll to the basket and make himself available for a nice pass. This group, sans Foster and Dunleavy do not do this.

    My point is, ya TJ will jump up with nowhere to go, but you know this as a teammate. I know this from my couch. You know it from section 210. So why not move and get to an open spot and bail him out. Or at least hit the offensive boards when he throws up some prayer. It's not some ancient language your trying to decipher, you know what TJ is going to do.

    TJ isn't nearly as bad as he's playing, but he's literally in the worst system and some of the worst teammates to help him out. Put him in Boston with that smart group and let him do what he does well with guys who will supplement his skills not contridict them and TJ would be a good valuable player.

    Even when TJ had good numbers last year, I was disappointed in that I had yearned for a real point guard so much I had hoped myself into believing they got one in that trade. He just isn't that, but he's still not as bad as he's playing.

    I just don't know why everyone on this team has sucked all at the same time. It's really hard to understand. I just don't know if this team is stupid or lazy or hate each other or something else. Something is going on though.
    Last edited by Speed; 12-08-2009 at 10:17 AM.

  25. #70
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    As Katz points out, you actually can effectively leave your feet to make a pass. But the caveat here is no small thing and amplifies the real issue at hand...knowing what you plan to do next. Even when he still has his dribble TJ rarely seems to have a plan.

    Nash intentionally draws defenders to create lanes, he wants you to rotate and if he jumps it's usually his plan of attack all along. He's not up there figuring things out, he's up there completing a plan he came up with 5 seconds earlier when he saw you bite a fake on a double screen or something.
    Exactly. Somebody like Nash actually knows beforhand what he wants to do with the ball. He's not slinging poo at the wall to see what sticks.

    And his teamates don't exactly help him when they stand still and watch him get trapped deep and don't move to help...

  26. #71
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    What were you saying about injuries?
    I'm sorry, I don't understand your question.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

    “If you can't be a good example, then you'll just have to serve as a horrible warning.” - Catherine Aird

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