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Thread: The T.J. hate must stop

  1. #26
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Because it worked one time doesn't mean a thing. Nash made a spectacular play, and the San Antonio defense did not rotate over.

    Leaving your feet to pass has about a %10 chance of leading to a basket, and probably a %50 turnover rate.

    Once a player leaves his feet, he no longer requires a second defender. An alert defense will immediately look to close down passing lanes, forcing the player to shoot.

    If Michael Finley leaves Nash the instant Duncan picks him up, that's an automatic turnover.
    Don't you know that in Basketball Fundamentals 101 they teach you to jump up in the air before making every pass?

  2. #27
    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    LOL

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  3. #28
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Beat me to it.

  4. #29

    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    This is from Andy Katz from last March, talking about T.J. Ford and Jarrett Jack: http://dimemag.com/2009/03/the-worst...ch-in-the-nba/

    "I canít think of a backcourt that is more frustrating to watch than Indianaís. Even without Gilbert Arenas, the Wizards arenít this bad. Mike James isnít the most explosive point guard, but at least he doesnít consistently violate the number one tenet of playing point guard: donít leave your feet without knowing where youíre going with the ball."

    This is a basic fundamental that I'm sure most of you who played basketball heard from your coaches at every level. It reminds me of another fundamental issue that the Pacers allow to keep happening - to have a foul-prone young big man like Roy constantly leaving his feet to try to block shots is insanity. He needs to stay on the floor with his arms extended to make shots difficult without fouling, not to try to block so many of them.

  5. #30
    Rebound King Kstat's Avatar
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    It's the video game/ESPN culture of basketball. Instead of making the simple, correct play, get into the lane, leave your feet to sell a shot fake to draw a second defender, and at the last second look for an open man.

    The inherent problem in leaving your feet to pass on a broken play is, you have to be looking at the rim to sell it, and in doing so you are unaware of where the defense is on the floor. You are therefore at the mercy of the defense not doing its job.

    Once a player leaves the floor, the need for a second defender is minimized. The four defenders not contesting the shot should always immediately peel off and sit on passing lanes.

    I'm pretty sure Bobby Knight has unmarked graves filled with guards who left their feet to pass at some point or another.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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  7. #31

    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by WetBob View Post
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    Don't you know that in Basketball Fundamentals 101 they teach you to jump up in the air before making every pass?
    Right, because that was my argument. Honestly, between asinine comments like that, Kstat making up statistics, and someone comparing Ford to Fred Jones, I have a hard time taking any of you seriously.
    "Ever wonder what it's like to wonder what it's like to wonder, they get up out of bed but can't awaken from their slumber, they know what they've been told by those who know what they've been told, you see this hand me down knowledge generated ages ago, and I know what they've been told because I've been told the same thing, I had to broaden my horizons to expand on greater things..." Many Styles

  8. #32
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by PostArtestEra View Post
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    Right, because that was my argument. Honestly, between asinine comments like that, Kstat making up statistics, and someone comparing Ford to Fred Jones, I have a hard time taking any of you seriously.
    Your argument is completely wrong and goes against anything any coach would ever want.

    So I don't take you seriously.

  9. #33

    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    All of this discussion ignores the fact, which I think I pointed out earlier, that T.J. is averaging less than 2 turnovers a game. Seriously, 1.8 turnovers per game. So, your biggest complaint about the guy is that he makes a bad pass every game or two.

    The point of this thread is that T.J. is not a bad point guard, and no one has convinced me otherwise.
    "Ever wonder what it's like to wonder what it's like to wonder, they get up out of bed but can't awaken from their slumber, they know what they've been told by those who know what they've been told, you see this hand me down knowledge generated ages ago, and I know what they've been told because I've been told the same thing, I had to broaden my horizons to expand on greater things..." Many Styles

  10. #34
    Play McRoberts and Price! BRushWithDeath's Avatar
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by PostArtestEra View Post
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    All of this discussion ignores the fact, which I think I pointed out earlier, that T.J. is averaging less than 2 turnovers a game. Seriously, 1.8 turnovers per game. So, your biggest complaint about the guy is that he makes a bad pass every game or two.

    The point of this thread is that T.J. is not a bad point guard, and no one has convinced me otherwise.
    TJ isn't half as bad as he looks in our "system". Of course he looks like utter dog **** so that's not saying much.

    In the right system he'd be a serviceable player. But in our "system" he's awful. Worse than awful. But it looks like our "system" is designed so all our players are in the best possible position to fail.
    "I had to take her down like Chris Brown."

    -Lance Stephenson

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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by PostArtestEra View Post
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    All of this discussion ignores the fact, which I think I pointed out earlier, that T.J. is averaging less than 2 turnovers a game. Seriously, 1.8 turnovers per game. So, your biggest complaint about the guy is that he makes a bad pass every game or two.

    The point of this thread is that T.J. is not a bad point guard, and no one has convinced me otherwise.
    Look at his assist-to-turnover ratio.

    I don't see how anyone who has actually watched him play this season can think he's played anything short of awful. I have watched most of every game this season, and the only time I didn't want to drive an anvil through my head was the second half of the Utah game.

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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    I wouldn't say he sucks. He's a very talented player. He can't fit into our system.

  13. #37
    Play McRoberts and Price! BRushWithDeath's Avatar
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by Trophy View Post
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    I wouldn't say he sucks. He's a very talented player. He can't fit into our system.
    You must put "system" in quotes if you're talking about the Pacers. Other teams have a system. We have a "system".
    "I had to take her down like Chris Brown."

    -Lance Stephenson

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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    You must put "system" in quotes if you're talking about the Pacers. Other teams have a system. We have a "system".
    We're rebuilding and rebuilding teams don't have a true system. So you're right when you mean system at a quotation believing we do have some kind of play style.

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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by Trophy View Post
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    We're rebuilding and rebuilding teams don't have a true system. So you're right when you mean system at a quotation believing we do have some kind of play style.
    That's the problem. We aren't rebuilding. We're using the same old players who are no part of our future and are poor in the present.
    "I had to take her down like Chris Brown."

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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    That's the problem. We aren't rebuilding. We're using the same old players who are no part of our future and are poor in the present.
    I might start watching the Thunder, who are rebuilding, unlike us. Ironically, they have are winning and we are not.
    "I keep wondering the same thing. Last week they had the 4th worst record in the league, had an 11.9 percent chance of winning the lottery and were in line to land a franchise type player like Derrick Favors or DeMarcus Cousins. This week? They have a 1.7 percent chance of winning the lottery, have the 8th worst record and are in line to draft Cole Aldrich or Greg Monroe. Way to go Jim O'Brien. Rest Danny Granger the rest of the season (if it isn't too late) and give Josh McRoberts lots of minutes. That ought to do it." - Chad Ford on winning meaningless games

    Way to go Jim, you may have just put our franchise back another 4+ years.

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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Yes, we are rebuilding.

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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Yes, we are rebuilding.
    We should be. But we aren't.
    "I had to take her down like Chris Brown."

    -Lance Stephenson

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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    We should be. But we aren't.

    From what I wrote in another thread:


    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    the goal is supposed to be getting your youth experience enough to grow while surrounding them with enough vets to make a playoff push. The reason for that is to try to give the young guys playoff experience so they are as seasoned as possible, which in turn helps not only attract a 2011 FA, but to also give him the most ready team possible to contend right away after the talent level gets a shot in the arm. Additionally, winning more and making the playoffs means more revenue and greater fan interest.

    It's a solid strategy, particularly for this market.

    The current problem is this team, even with all of it's limitations, is under achieving and if it continues for long it might throw somewhat of a wrench in the plan's gears.

    However, unless Bird is convinced this fanbase simply can't take it, I believe the wise move is to stay the coarse with the roster plans and embrace having a higher than expected lottery pick this June.
    We are rebuilding. We're just not tanking.

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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    From what I wrote in another thread:




    We are rebuilding. We're just not tanking.
    Isn't that exactly what we're doing by continuing to play the older, worse players?
    Last edited by WetBob; 12-06-2009 at 11:03 PM.

  21. #45
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by Trophy View Post
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    We're rebuilding and rebuilding teams don't have a true system. So you're right when you mean system at a quotation believing we do have some kind of play style.
    Rebuilding teams don't have a true system? What does that even mean? If you are rebuilding and trying to groom young guys, wouldn't it make more sense to have a stricter system so the guys wouldn't learn a bunch of bad habits?

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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Rebuilding teams don't have a true system? What does that even mean? If you are rebuilding and trying to groom young guys, wouldn't it make more sense to have a stricter system so the guys wouldn't learn a bunch of bad habits?
    Based on O'Brien's coaching style I'd say we're running an offensive system.

  23. #47
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    We are rebuilding. We're just not tanking.
    Well, this sure feels like a tank...

    Honestly, some of the vets (e.g. Foster, Dunleavy, D Jones) are better at winning games right now...but I don't believe that is true across the board. We do need the depth they all provide, but I don't think the outcome would be worse..and the current record is backing that up.

    Now, if you think that, over time running the system, things will change where all the vets would make a difference...I would argue that is probably true but by that time some of the young guys might also be "getting it". I think we all remember how Rush was playing at the end of last year...and honestly, he was playing so good people were beginning to forget about Mike.

    Also, I think Hibbert would play much, much better if he was always paired with Hans or Foster for all of his minutes. His strength is not defense...as one of the Hoya posters would always say. He simply cannot provide the force to defend two players at once. He is barely able to defend his own man...but the value he brings on offense will ultimately be seen...because it is inevitable that someone will figure out how to appropriately pair him up.

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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    While Foster has been playing out of his mind this season, we need to get something out of him via trade before he gets hurt again. Don't play the loyalty card because I'm sure he'd love to win a ring. The best thing he'd get here is a pat on the back when he's retired.
    "I keep wondering the same thing. Last week they had the 4th worst record in the league, had an 11.9 percent chance of winning the lottery and were in line to land a franchise type player like Derrick Favors or DeMarcus Cousins. This week? They have a 1.7 percent chance of winning the lottery, have the 8th worst record and are in line to draft Cole Aldrich or Greg Monroe. Way to go Jim O'Brien. Rest Danny Granger the rest of the season (if it isn't too late) and give Josh McRoberts lots of minutes. That ought to do it." - Chad Ford on winning meaningless games

    Way to go Jim, you may have just put our franchise back another 4+ years.

  25. #49
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    yes tj hate must stop, he has to go asap.

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  27. #50
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Yeah, I don't need any stats to back up what I've seen out of TJ the past two years.

    1) He sucks. There's your first problem.
    2) The system doesn't do him any favors, so it makes him suck more than he actually does.
    the point is, he was good, verry good on TWO other teams. two other teams that had set plays, good coaching and preperation. so you know that the talent was there for TWO full seasons...and everybody on this board is fixated on just what they see here in indy and draw terrible, bias opions. no offense. tj ford has proven he can be a good point guard. so he is a good point guard, just not in the right system.

    but i agree with this guy, his turnovers 'habits' and 'terrible' ability are horrifically overexaggerrated on this board.
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