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Thread: The T.J. hate must stop

  1. #1

    Default The T.J. hate must stop

    I've seen a number of posts stating that T.J. isn't a real point guard, or that he is the reason are offense is so bad. This criticism is coming from the same people who fully understand that O'brien is essentially not running an offense. No true point guard could flourish in this non-system.

    People will surely point to instances when T.J. jumps in the air and throws the ball to no one. I agree that these plays look bad. However, what is happening is that he drives into the lane, draws defenders, and looks to distribute the ball. Unfortunately, no one on our offense is doing anything. Thus, he has no where to go with the ball. He is averaging less than 2 turnovers a game, by the way.

    The only kind of point guard that would fit this team would be an absolute chucker. Some of you are clamoring for Andre Miller. You guys would turn on him faster than you can say empty possession. I'm sure he would be none to happy to be here either.

    Don't forget that Ford took his team to the playoffs the three years prior to coming to Indiana. At 23, he was averaging 14 and 8. Granted he was on a better team, he was still a very good point guard.

    The bottom line is that this is a mediocre team with a terrible coach.
    "Ever wonder what it's like to wonder what it's like to wonder, they get up out of bed but can't awaken from their slumber, they know what they've been told by those who know what they've been told, you see this hand me down knowledge generated ages ago, and I know what they've been told because I've been told the same thing, I had to broaden my horizons to expand on greater things..." Many Styles

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  3. #2
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by PostArtestEra View Post
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    I've seen a number of posts stating that T.J. isn't a real point guard, or that he is the reason are offense is so bad. This criticism is coming from the same people who fully understand that O'brien is essentially not running an offense. No true point guard could flourish in this non-system.

    People will surely point to instances when T.J. jumps in the air and throws the ball to no one. I agree that these plays look bad. However, what is happening is that he drives into the lane, draws defenders, and looks to distribute the ball. Unfortunately, no one on our offense is doing anything. Thus, he has no where to go with the ball. He is averaging less than 2 turnovers a game, by the way.

    The only kind of point guard that would fit this team would be an absolute chucker. Some of you are clamoring for Andre Miller. You guys would turn on him faster than you can say empty possession. I'm sure he would be none to happy to be here either.

    Don't forget that Ford took his team to the playoffs the three years prior to coming to Indiana. At 23, he was averaging 14 and 8. Granted he was on a better team, he was still a very good point guard.

    The bottom line is that this is a mediocre team with a terrible coach.
    I'd rather have Miller than TJ under whatever circumstances, personally, However, I think there may be something in your non-system argument. However, Earl Watson got 9 assists last night in the non-system. TJ has something like 6 assists in the last 3 games.

    I think at this stage and/or in this offense he's more toward the SG in PG body end of the spectrum. Undoubtedly, put better guys on the team and he'd probably play better so there's no argument for me on that one.

    What this team needs out of the PG spot is a steadying influence, a game/team manager and leader type. I don't find that to be TJ's strong suit. Give TJ teammates that are more experienced, more talented, a team that wins more and fits with a PG who is more offensively oriented and I think he could potentially be very successful.
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    The TJ hate won't be stopping anytime soon. He sucks. Like Murphy, you can't win with him.

    You are right about one thing, the coach is worse.

  5. #4

    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    I'd rather have Miller than TJ under whatever circumstances, personally, However, I think there may be something in your non-system argument. However, Earl Watson got 9 assists last night in the non-system. TJ has something like 6 assists in the last 3 games.

    I think at this stage and/or in this offense he's more toward the SG in PG body end of the spectrum. Undoubtedly, put better guys on the team and he'd probably play better so there's no argument for me on that one.

    What this team needs out of the PG spot is a steadying influence, a game/team manager and leader type. I don't find that to be TJ's strong suit. Give TJ teammates that are more experienced, more talented, a team that wins more and fits with a PG who is more offensively oriented and I think he could potentially be very successful.
    For the record, Watson and Ford are both averaging 3 assists and 25 minutes per game. It is interesting that you call Ford a SG in a PG body. I think you see him this way this because of the coach. No way in hell did anyone make that claim when T.J. was in Milwaukee or Toronto. I think you would quickly feel the same way about Miller if he were on our team.
    "Ever wonder what it's like to wonder what it's like to wonder, they get up out of bed but can't awaken from their slumber, they know what they've been told by those who know what they've been told, you see this hand me down knowledge generated ages ago, and I know what they've been told because I've been told the same thing, I had to broaden my horizons to expand on greater things..." Many Styles

  6. #5

    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by WetBob View Post
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    The TJ hate won't be stopping anytime soon. He sucks. Like Murphy, you can't win with him.

    You are right about one thing, the coach is worse.
    How do explain Milwaukee and Toronto, how do I put this, umm... Winning with him? These kind of statements floor me. Why would you make such a bold declaration? Do you have any actual complaints about T.J.'s game?
    "Ever wonder what it's like to wonder what it's like to wonder, they get up out of bed but can't awaken from their slumber, they know what they've been told by those who know what they've been told, you see this hand me down knowledge generated ages ago, and I know what they've been told because I've been told the same thing, I had to broaden my horizons to expand on greater things..." Many Styles

  7. #6

    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    The T.J. hate will stop when the T.J. play improves.

    Dribble, dribble, drive to hoop, no plan in mind, jump up, no shot available, nobody to pass to, throw a prayer pass somewhere and then look bewildered when it's a turnover.

    I've seen enough of that.

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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    I was kinda excited when we got Ford. He torched us when he played for the Bucks and I had wanted him on our team since then. He really seems like a different player now. I don't know if he has regressed, or if it is JOB. Or perhaps the team really quit on JOB. From a fan's perspective, it almost seems like JOB is throwing the games with the lineups he religiously throws out there now. Maybe he wants out? It sucks for me because I moved to Florida in the summer and it is a lot of work to catch a game. (the online feed hardly ever works right). It is starting to not be worth the effort to even watch them on my computer. And I have been a fan as long as I can remember.

  10. #8

    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    The T.J. hate will stop when the T.J. play improves.

    Dribble, dribble, drive to hoop, no plan in mind, jump up, no shot available, nobody to pass to, throw a prayer pass somewhere and then look bewildered when it's a turnover.

    I've seen enough of that.
    I thought I addressed this in my original post, but I guess not. Let's break down that play fully. "Dribble, dribble, drive to the hoop," this is exactly what I want my point guard to do. Ok, next "no plan in mind" his plan is to score, or feed the ball to a teammate when the defense converges on him. As for, "Jump up", he jumps in the air to make the defense commit to him, unfortunately, at this point none of his teammates get into proper position, largely because the coach runs zero plays designed to utilize T.J. drive and kick abilities.

    Seriously, what would you like to see T.J. do? Hoist 18 footers all day? That is about the only thing that our system allows him to do.
    "Ever wonder what it's like to wonder what it's like to wonder, they get up out of bed but can't awaken from their slumber, they know what they've been told by those who know what they've been told, you see this hand me down knowledge generated ages ago, and I know what they've been told because I've been told the same thing, I had to broaden my horizons to expand on greater things..." Many Styles

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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by PostArtestEra View Post
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    How do explain Milwaukee and Toronto, how do I put this, umm... Winning with him? These kind of statements floor me. Why would you make such a bold declaration? Do you have any actual complaints about T.J.'s game?
    The Bucks and Raptors were certainly juggernauts with TJ Ford at the helm. Come on.

    I didn't follow those teams, but I'm guessing they "won" in spite of, not because of TJ Ford.

    Do I have complaints? Finding the time and energy to unleash them all will be difficult, so I'll just offer a couple.

    1. His go to move: Drive into the middle of the lane, jump up, spin in the air, and throw a blind pass back out to the top of the key, or whichever defender is closest. Always a crowd favorite.

    2. His favorite pass is a jump shot.

    3. He plays defense better than Murphy. That's it.

    My TJ Ford positives:

    1. His wife is hot, and they have the cutest son ever. My girlfriend loves that little kid.

    So, TJ, if you're reading: You suck at basketball, but well done on the family. Hey, priorities right?

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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by PostArtestEra View Post
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    I thought I addressed this in my original post, but I guess not. Let's break down that play fully. "Dribble, dribble, drive to the hoop," this is exactly what I want my point guard to do. Ok, next "no plan in mind" his plan is to score, or feed the ball to a teammate when the defense converges on him. As for, "Jump up", he jumps in the air to make the defense commit to him, unfortunately, at this point none of his teammates get into proper position, largely because the coach runs zero plays designed to utilize T.J. drive and kick abilities.

    Seriously, what would you like to see T.J. do? Hoist 18 footers all day? That is about the only thing that our system allows him to do.
    Do you even know what a point guard is? Serious question, by the way, not just trying to fan the flames.

  13. #11

    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Let me preface this by saying I don't believe T.J. Ford is in the same stratosphere as Chris Paul. However, Paul made himself into a superstar in large part by breaking down defenses, driving into the lane, jumping into the air, and feeding Tyson Chandler and other teammates. Go hit up a youtube search if you don't believe me. This is what good point guards do. They drive the ball and feed teammates. It isn't T.J's fault that our bigs don't dive, and our wings don't get open. Hell, I don't even blame our other players, I blame poor coaching and preparation.
    "Ever wonder what it's like to wonder what it's like to wonder, they get up out of bed but can't awaken from their slumber, they know what they've been told by those who know what they've been told, you see this hand me down knowledge generated ages ago, and I know what they've been told because I've been told the same thing, I had to broaden my horizons to expand on greater things..." Many Styles

  14. #12

    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Honest to God scouting report on T.J. coming out of college:
    Pros: A very quick point guard known for his court-vision. Has a knack for knowing where and when to pass the ball. Rarely commits a turnover. Excellent leader and a winner at all levels of basketball. Is untouchable in the open floor with his speed. Was 75-1 over last two years of high school and Led Texas University to a Final Four berth in 2003 where they lost to eventual champion Syracuse. Averaged 15 ppg, 7.7 apg, 2 spg, 40.1% FG, 26.5% 3FG, 82% FT at Texas.

    Cons, of course, were size and jumpshot.
    "Ever wonder what it's like to wonder what it's like to wonder, they get up out of bed but can't awaken from their slumber, they know what they've been told by those who know what they've been told, you see this hand me down knowledge generated ages ago, and I know what they've been told because I've been told the same thing, I had to broaden my horizons to expand on greater things..." Many Styles

  15. #13

    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by PostArtestEra View Post
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    I thought I addressed this in my original post, but I guess not. Let's break down that play fully. "Dribble, dribble, drive to the hoop," this is exactly what I want my point guard to do. Ok, next "no plan in mind" his plan is to score, or feed the ball to a teammate when the defense converges on him. As for, "Jump up", he jumps in the air to make the defense commit to him, unfortunately, at this point none of his teammates get into proper position, largely because the coach runs zero plays designed to utilize T.J. drive and kick abilities.


    If it's not a play designed to 'drive and kick', then don't drive and kick. According to your logic, it's the fault of the other 4 guys on the court and the coach. T.J. is just in a world of his own out there. Point guards are supposed to control the game, give the ball to the other players in a position so they can utilize their abilities, make the guys on the floor with them better. Simply put - T.J. doesn't do those things.

    And Leon Smith had some pretty good scouting reports on him also. So did Shawne Williams. So did lots of other good HS/College players that didn't quite translate to the NBA. Oh, and Chris Paul can hit a jump shot. And score around the hoop. And makes his teammates better. And...........

    Oh, why bother ............... it's Sunday. Football day.
    Last edited by PacerDude; 12-06-2009 at 09:11 AM.

  16. #14

    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    If it's not a play designed to 'drive and kick', then don't drive and kick. According to your logic, it's the fault of the other 4 guys on the court and the coach. T.J. is just in a world of his own out there. Point guards are supposed to control the game, give the ball to the other players in a position so they can utilize their abilities, make the guys on the floor with them better. Simply put - T.J. doesn't do those things.

    And Leon Smith had some pretty good scouting reports on him also. So did Shawne Williams. So did lots of other good HS/College players that didn't quite translate to the NBA. Oh, and Chris Paul can hit a jump shot. And score around the hoop. And makes his teammates better. And...........

    Oh, why bother ............... it's Sunday. Football day.
    My point is that there is no damn play designed. Rather, the play is do whatever the hell you want. Let's say instead of driving, Ford passes the ball to Granger. Now Granger is probably going to launch a jumper. Is Granger "in a world of his own out there"? What about Murphy? O'brien lets our players do whatever they want on offense. The problem is that he hasn't explained to our guys what they are supposed to do when the point guard breaks down the defense. Holy hell, what are you guys watching?
    "Ever wonder what it's like to wonder what it's like to wonder, they get up out of bed but can't awaken from their slumber, they know what they've been told by those who know what they've been told, you see this hand me down knowledge generated ages ago, and I know what they've been told because I've been told the same thing, I had to broaden my horizons to expand on greater things..." Many Styles

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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    The T.J. hate will stop when the T.J. play improves.

    Dribble, dribble, drive to hoop, no plan in mind, jump up, no shot available, nobody to pass to, throw a prayer pass somewhere and then look bewildered when it's a turnover.

    I've seen enough of that.
    i call that his fred jones special.

  18. #16

    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by PostArtestEra View Post
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    Holy hell, what are you guys watching?
    Today ................ FOOTBALL.

    The guys on the Colts actually care.

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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by PostArtestEra View Post
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    My point is that there is no damn play designed. Rather, the play is do whatever the hell you want. Let's say instead of driving, Ford passes the ball to Granger. Now Granger is probably going to launch a jumper. Is Granger "in a world of his own out there"? What about Murphy? O'brien lets our players do whatever they want on offense. The problem is that he hasn't explained to our guys what they are supposed to do when the point guard breaks down the defense. Holy hell, what are you guys watching?
    I agree with you. I don't think anyone on this board can say that our team doesn't looks lost out there.
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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    I think PAE is making good points. I don't think TJ Ford is as bad as he looks here.

    TJ would likely do best in a set offense that involves the ball being in his hands more often than not.

    Yes, he would still have his shortcomings, but at least his strengths could come out to play once and a while instead of being non-existent.

    He was known as a drive and kick PG with good passing skills in his prior stops. You would never know it judging by his time in this offense.

    He may not be a great PG, but he's better than he looks right now if you use him right.

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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by PostArtestEra View Post
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    People will surely point to instances when T.J. jumps in the air and throws the ball to no one. I agree that these plays look bad. However, what is happening is that he drives into the lane, draws defenders, and looks to distribute the ball.
    That is a stupid play no mater how you rationalize it. You never leave your feet to pass unless its a set play. Even then its very risky.

    There's no rule that says you have to leave your feet to pass out of the paint.

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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    That is a stupid play no mater how you rationalize it. You never leave your feet to pass unless its a set play. Even then its very risky.

    There's no rule that says you have to leave your feet to pass out of the paint.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WQyHDhjzCLA

    I disagree, and I think this video explains why. In the clip, Nash beats Finley off the dribble and gets into the paint. He then jumps into the air, which forces Duncan to commit to him. Now, and this is very important, Stoudamire rolls into perfect position to receive a pass. Nash makes a beautiful pass, and the Suns get a three point play.

    If Nash doesn't jump, then Duncan very likely stays with Stoudamire, and at the very least, he doesn't leave his feet. On the other hand, if Amare spectates, or is otherwise unprepared to catch a pass, Nash is going to look like a fool. Right?
    "Ever wonder what it's like to wonder what it's like to wonder, they get up out of bed but can't awaken from their slumber, they know what they've been told by those who know what they've been told, you see this hand me down knowledge generated ages ago, and I know what they've been told because I've been told the same thing, I had to broaden my horizons to expand on greater things..." Many Styles

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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Because it worked one time doesn't mean a thing. Nash made a spectacular play, and the San Antonio defense did not rotate over.

    Leaving your feet to pass has about a %10 chance of leading to a basket, and probably a %50 turnover rate.

    Once a player leaves his feet, he no longer requires a second defender. An alert defense will immediately look to close down passing lanes, forcing the player to shoot.

    If Michael Finley leaves Nash the instant Duncan picks him up, that's an automatic turnover.
    Last edited by Kstat; 12-06-2009 at 03:05 PM.

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  26. #22

    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Actually the he makes a point. I live in Toronto and i watched TJ when he played for the raptors. He was one of the major reasons the raptors actually had the 47 win season. He was clearly our 2nd best player that season. I really dont understand why he is struggling so much in Indiana. I think some of it is on TJ and the other is on the offensive system in place. Believe me TJ is not this bad. The man can play ball.

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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    Because it worked one time doesn't mean a thing. Nash made a spectacular play, and the San Antonio defense did not rotate over.

    Leaving your feet to pass has about a %10 chance of leading to a basket, and probably a %50 turnover rate.

    Once a player leaves his feet, he no longer requires a second defender. An alert defense will immediately look to close down passing lanes, forcing the player to shoot.

    If Michael Finley leaves Nash the instant Duncan picks him up, that's an automatic turnover.
    First, where are you getting those statistics? Second, if Finley leaves Nash, he has an easy lefty layup.

    That is beside the point, though. Getting into the air can help draw defenders and lead to easy buckets. Watch Sportscenter any night and you are likely to see a bevy of these plays. I'm not saying that this it is always a good decision, however, I am saying that the statistics you provided are, to put it nicely, egregiously inaccurate.
    "Ever wonder what it's like to wonder what it's like to wonder, they get up out of bed but can't awaken from their slumber, they know what they've been told by those who know what they've been told, you see this hand me down knowledge generated ages ago, and I know what they've been told because I've been told the same thing, I had to broaden my horizons to expand on greater things..." Many Styles

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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Yeah, I don't need any stats to back up what I've seen out of TJ the past two years.

    1) He sucks. There's your first problem.
    2) The system doesn't do him any favors, so it makes him suck more than he actually does.

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    Default Re: The T.J. hate must stop

    Quote Originally Posted by PostArtestEra View Post
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    First, where are you getting those statistics? Second, if Finley leaves Nash, he has an easy lefty layup.

    That is beside the point, though. Getting into the air can help draw defenders and lead to easy buckets. Watch Sportscenter any night and you are likely to see a bevy of these plays. I'm not saying that this it is always a good decision, however, I am saying that the statistics you provided are, to put it nicely, egregiously inaccurate.
    You don't leave your feet to pass. That's textbook. It's ingrained into every player since childhood.

    You see the %10 that work on sportscenter because the %90 that don't are not highlight reel worthy.

    Allen Iverson leaves his feet to pass more often than any player in history. He's also the biggest turnover machine. That's all you need to know.
    Last edited by Kstat; 12-06-2009 at 04:59 PM.

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