Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 44

Thread: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

  1. #1
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    10,049

    Default The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    You can point your finger at whomever you want, but the Pacers number one problem is they can't shoot! All one has to do to see what is wrong with the Pacers is compare the shooting percentages of this team with the one last year.

    The defense is 3 points better, but the offense is 7 points worse.

    Not counting Diener who hasn't played this year, and McRoberts who hasn't played much, only Hibbert is not down in some category.

    The worse shooters, the ones down in every category, are Granger, Ford, and Rush. Granger's playing hurt and trying to do to much. Ford is now 0-16 from the three point line, and Rush, our shooting guard is barely above .500 from the foul line.

    What the players have to do is take it upon themselves to practice their shooting. Me, if I was shooting poorly I would be out there practicing until my arm fell off.


    THIS YEAR

    LAST YEAR

    FG
    3P
    FS

    FG
    3P
    FS
    Team
    .434
    .308
    .761

    .455
    .378
    .807
    Granger
    .413
    .364
    .823

    .447
    .404
    .878
    Ford
    .434
    .000
    .742

    .452
    .337
    .872
    Rush
    .341
    .310
    .525

    .423
    .373
    .697
    Murphy
    .454
    .333
    .789

    .475
    .450
    .826
    Dunleavy
    .459
    .214
    .875

    .401
    .356
    .815
    Hibbert
    .496
    .000
    .697

    .471
    .000
    .667
    Foster
    .522
    .000
    .625

    .501
    .286
    .658
    McRoberts
    .375
    .000
    .500

    .422
    .000
    .769
    Diener
    ---
    ---
    ---

    .413
    .390
    .800








    Last edited by Will Galen; 12-06-2009 at 02:28 AM.

  2. The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to Will Galen For This Useful Post:


  3. #2
    Whale Shepherd cdash's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    The Sprawl
    Age
    29
    Posts
    17,381

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    I knew Troy's three-point percentage would drop, but jeez. Cut in half?

  4. #3
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    10,049

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I knew Troy's three-point percentage would drop, but jeez. Cut in half?
    He hasn't shot that many 3's this year because he hasn't been back long. He went 3-5 tonight and raised his percentage to .361.

    Edit: he was at .333 before tonight. Dun is the one that was at .214. I mixed up their numbers. I fixed them.
    Last edited by Will Galen; 12-06-2009 at 02:31 AM.

  5. #4
    Member LoneGranger33's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Age
    28
    Posts
    17,396

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    I think the Clippers announcers hit the nail on the head (before the Clippers players put it in the coffin): the Pacers went out and got defense-oriented players so the defense improved, but they tried to run the same offense with those guys and it, unsurprisingly, wasn't working.

  6. #5
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    10,049

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I think the Clippers announcers hit the nail on the head (before the Clippers players put it in the coffin): the Pacers went out and got defense-oriented players so the defense improved, but they tried to run the same offense with those guys and it, unsurprisingly, wasn't working.
    Sounds good, but they aren't the guys shooting worse, and they aren't the guys taking a lot of shots.

  7. #6
    Member LoneGranger33's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Age
    28
    Posts
    17,396

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    I think the point was to try to explain the poor movement and spacing on offense generally, which might explain the poor shot selection and thus the lower percentages.

    I hate to add on to the list of things Troy Murphy does that upset people around here, but I don't see the point of his three point shot fake - at best he is able to get two steps closer before the original defender is back on him. It seems like every time he does that, we just lose seconds in the shot clock. For a supposedly fast-paced offense, we've been taking a lot of shots 20 seconds into the possession. Seven seconds or less we are not.

  8. #7
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    20,104

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    Here's the problem I saw a lot tonight-
    If we can't get a quick shot away (which IMHO is also a rushed shot that isn't exactly good for the offense or defense leaving players out of position) then we have no offense. EVERYTHING is about getting that quick shot. Take that away from us and we look like the Keystone Cops on offense....

    It makes sense that if you get some defensive minded players and put them with a coach that cares nothing about defense and everything about a quick strike offense that you're going to get trouble.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  9. The Following User Says Thank You to Bball For This Useful Post:


  10. #8
    Member mcampbellarch's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    olympia, wa
    Posts
    169

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    Was thinking Luther Head could have made an offensive contribution in the fourth. At this point I would rather see Rush just shoot at will. At least there is a chance it will go in. Holding the ball at the 3pt line, handing off to the center, who then hands off to the pg, then perhaps another hand-off, all approximately 20 feet out. When no one is shooting that well (3 of 13 at one point in the 4th) take the shot, really. You can only depreciate so far, at which point pretty much any activity is appreciated. Sadly, I am afraid he may not be the only player which garners that sentiment. Just more disappointing for a young player.

  11. #9
    You are my Lucifer D-BONE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Nirvana
    Posts
    6,942

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    First off, WG, there's no question the issue you are underscoring is a MAJOR factor in our offensive woes. Although we have some guys who've had good 3 numbers in the past. I'd say that I've never considered our guys to be pure shooters. So, I'm not totally surprised by this development.

    I consider guys like TJ, Granger, and Dun (and even Murphy) to be more on the scorer end of the spectrum than the shooter one, although the two don't have to be mutually exclusive. We don't have a Reggie, a Dale Ellis, a Dell Curry, a Gallinari, even maybe a Kapono-type guy.

    That's what I think of when I think shooter. Shot looks smooth, the opposition is groaning every time this guy gets and open look. You're actually surprised when these guys don't hit.

    As long as the thread is talking offense, maybe somebody can give me some perspective about another aspect. At this point, I'm really confused about ball movement, spacing, and player movement. Do I have a different definition of this than our coaching staff, players, our TV announcers, etc.?

    To me, generally offensive movement does not really mean tossing the ball around three times in one possession when the two or three guys are three feet away from each other on the perimeter on the same side fo the floor. That wouldn't seem to make the defense have to move very much.

    How often do we ever have at least one ball reversal during a single offensive possession? Or a true inside-out exchange or more? How often to the two guys on the weak side ever cut, flash, or otherwise move in some way as to actually get themselves involved in an attack or score position. All I see is the weak side exchanging lacksadaisically with one another or just standing in place watching what's going on ball side.

    Not saying we never see these things. I can think of a few instances lately where I've been like "well that looked nice". Also, is this in part infuencing our poor offensive rebounding?

    I hear people talk about movement and spacing, but are those principles really applicable to the objectives of the approach we have or is it that the players just don't execute?

    Maybe what I'm thinking of is motion. Is there a difference? Is this semantics or is this a legitimate question about how we play and how we say we play?
    I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

    -Emiliano Zapata

  12. #10

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    Just to add a small detail in support and agreement to Will's OP:


    Last year, the 3-point barrage worked well for the Pacers. They shot .378 from 3pt range, and that meant they scored 1.13 points per 3pt attempt. That was better than the 0.95 that they scored per 2pt attempt.

    O'Brien was right (last year) to urge the players to take lots of 3s. Those 3s kept us in a lot of games last year.


    This year, the 3pt percentage is down to .304, and that means they are getting only 0.91 points per 3pt attempt. The inside game is still very limited, but now the crutch is no longer reliable, either.


    EDIT: How pathetic is it that I am offering last year's Pacers' team as a model of what the current guys ought to be striving for?
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

  13. The Following User Says Thank You to Putnam For This Useful Post:


  14. #11
    .
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    When players who have proven they can shoot are continually struggling to shoot, shouldn't their come a point where we do everything we can to save their legs? What I'm getting at is Jim running them ragged at any opportunity in practice.

    The theory is that we'll have more legs than the opponent at the end of games, especially when we force the tempo, but am I the only one who thinks it might be doing more harm than good?

  15. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Hicks For This Useful Post:


  16. #12
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    3,436

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    When players who have proven they can shoot are continually struggling to shoot, shouldn't their come a point where we do everything we can to save their legs? What I'm getting at is Jim running them ragged at any opportunity in practice.

    The theory is that we'll have more legs than the opponent at the end of games, especially when we force the tempo, but am I the only one who thinks it might be doing more harm than good?
    Again, with the exception of Hibbert having a few good offensive spurts here and there, this team doesn't have the personnel to be a good half court team offensively. Give time to let the opposing defense get settled and this team will have a harder time scoring, not easier.

  17. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to d_c For This Useful Post:


  18. #13
    .
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Again, with the exception of Hibbert having a few good offensive spurts here and there, this team doesn't have the personnel to be a good half court team offensively. Give time to let the opposing defense get settled and this team will have a harder time scoring, not easier.
    I'll try isolating it and putting it in bold:

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    What I'm getting at is Jim running them ragged at any opportunity in practice.
    Translation: Stop running the team's legs so much when it's not game time.

  19. #14
    Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    3,436

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I'll try isolating it and putting it in bold:



    Translation: Stop running the team's legs so much when it's not game time.

    Sorry, missed that. I have no idea how hard O'brien runs his players in practice.

  20. #15
    .
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Sorry, missed that. I have no idea how hard O'brien runs his players in practice.
    He is known for turning shootarounds into full-blown, full speed practices, and at the up tempo pace he wants. In other words, he runs them ragged. I fear it's taking our legs away.

  21. #16
    .
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,583

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    I mean seriously, isn't one of the more recent measurements of predicting when a player will wear out and fall out if his prime to count up his career minutes played? Just because they don't keep score during those practices and shoot-arounds doesn't mean running them all the time doesn't rack up their career amount of time burning their energy and using up their bodies faster than a team that more often saves it for when it counts.

  22. #17
    On the Vogel Wagon gummy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Indy
    Posts
    3,924
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I mean seriously, isn't one of the more recent measurements of predicting when a player will wear out and fall out if his prime to count up his career minutes played? Just because they don't keep score during those practices and shoot-arounds doesn't mean running them all the time doesn't rack up their career amount of time burning their energy and using up their bodies faster than a team that more often saves it for when it counts.
    I think this is an underrated factor in our 2nd half/4th quarter slumps. I know someone will say the players are whinny babies if they can't handle a hard practice but the fact is Obbie is known for being pretty far outside the norm in this area. I mean, the guy had them run through a full practice the day after a 14 hour flight. Sometimes they had 4 hour practices in pre-season. Probably there's no time for practices like that during the season but those things fit the pattern of extreme practices.

    In short, I don't like it. I think it grinds the players down and probably doesn't do any favors for the coach-player relationship.
    "Freedom is nothing else but a chance to be better." - Albert Camus

    "Appreciation is a wonderful thing. It makes what is excellent in others belong to us as well." - Voltaire

    Michael Pina, Red94: "There are so many different ways the Pacers can beat you. They have an All-Star scoring threat, imposing figures on the front line, steady point guard play, and most importantly, a defense that'll choke the life out of just about every offense that crosses its path."

  23. #18

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    Hicks asks a good question. Last year, I thought it was great that Coach O'Brien vowed to have the best-conditioned team in the league. But I don't think it happened last year, and it is even less evident this year.

    I'd like to know what Since86 says, since he's our in-house expert on nutrition and physiology.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

  24. #19
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,323

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    Do you think you could compare Jack vs Jones shooting wise, as well as Quis vs Watson, Head, etc? Like a comparison of players we lost and the players we replaced them with?

  25. #20
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    10,049

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    Quote Originally Posted by flox View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Do you think you could compare Jack vs Jones shooting wise, as well as Quis vs Watson, Head, etc? Like a comparison of players we lost and the players we replaced them with?
    I looked at Jack when I did the other guys and he was up in shooting three's and down in the other two catagorys.
    The thing is running teams usually find it easier to find their rhythm, so they shouldn't be shooting so bad.

    I think Hick's is right. I read earlier this year that OB was putting the team though hard practice's. I wondered at the time if he had hard practices all the time. People that wear out are also more likely to get injured.

    Jack this year.
    .416 .362 .865

    Jack Last year.
    .453 .353 .852

  26. #21

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    When TJ is playing PG no one seems to know where the ball is coming from. In other words there is no floor leader. I see no offensive strategy and sometimes balls are passed to guys who are not prepared to receive the pass. The offense has absolutely no rhythm and other than Dun and occasionally Watson there is no assist guy. On some teams the PG is not the assist leader but we have no one to fill that gap.

    I'm not sure what can be done but will be happy to see Diener or even Price try to be a floor leader. The haphazard offense is awful to watch.

    Murphy is no where near the basket leaving Hibbert alone in the paint and Hibbert just doesn't have the hands.

    Say what you will about the lack of ability of individual pacers the offensive strategy does not come close to maximizing anyone's talents.

  27. #22
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    15,247

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Here's the problem I saw a lot tonight-
    If we can't get a quick shot away (which IMHO is also a rushed shot that isn't exactly good for the offense or defense leaving players out of position) then we have no offense. EVERYTHING is about getting that quick shot. Take that away from us and we look like the Keystone Cops on offense....
    That's the problem this team has all the time.

    I don't believe the free flowing offense can co-exist with a good defense, particularly without 5 near all-stars on the team. Sure, we can limit their FG% while both teams race up and down the floor while they are not valuing ball possession....but we cannot actually gets stops when they are needed.

    This all goes back to the "mysterious" 4th quarter collapses last season. What you see right now is a situation where teams don't even need to crank it up in the 4th. Once we start playing better, the 4th quarter collapses will be back in vogue.

  28. The Following User Says Thank You to BlueNGold For This Useful Post:


  29. #23
    '12 PD Sunshiner awardee Kemo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    A-Town , Indiana
    Age
    39
    Posts
    4,983

    Thumbs up Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    Quote Originally Posted by gummy View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I think this is an underrated factor in our 2nd half/4th quarter slumps. I know someone will say the players are whinny babies if they can't handle a hard practice but the fact is Obbie is known for being pretty far outside the norm in this area. I mean, the guy had them run through a full practice the day after a 14 hour flight. Sometimes they had 4 hour practices in pre-season. Probably there's no time for practices like that during the season but those things fit the pattern of extreme practices.

    In short, I don't like it. I think it grinds the players down and probably doesn't do any favors for the coach-player relationship.


    I'd like to add .. Instead of doing the all-out balls-to-the-wall practices , IT sounds like he absolutely NEEDS to take 2 hours of that 4 hours and work SPECIFICALLY on shooting .. NOTHING BUT SHOOTING..Untill we can get our shooting woes behind us .. The other 2 hours , work on the pick and roll , setting proper screens, moving without the ball , and running nothing but set plays during scrimmage ..

    The main thing though, they need to do nothing but shoot the ball.. We are a MUCH better shooting team than we have showed..

    Hibbert also needs to do nothing but shoot the ball in the post. It seems like when he is trying to get position , that guys stand around instead of trying to cut to the basket where Roy can make a quick pass for an easy layup or drawn foul.. Also, when he is that damn close to the basket, DUNK the damn ball with authority , instead of trying to drop it in with a soft touch.. For Cripes sake, he is 7"2 !!

    .
    .
    ANOTHER THING that I see all too often , is our guys running into each other on the offensive end.. There is no excuse for that..
    .
    .
    .
    .
    Last edited by Kemo; 12-07-2009 at 03:22 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Plumlee reminds me of a young Dale Davis. Good rebounding and he contests shots well on defense and his offensive game is very raw just like DD's was coming out of college.
    "If my answers frighten you, then you should cease asking scary questions."

  30. #24
    Get well PG! QuickRelease's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    4,769

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    He is known for turning shootarounds into full-blown, full speed practices, and at the up tempo pace he wants. In other words, he runs them ragged. I fear it's taking our legs away.
    Hicks, I've heard this mentioned a couple of times in various posts. How was this validated? His practice repertoire I mean. Have former players said this as well? Just curious, and not at all trying to be argumentative.

  31. #25
    Member nerveghost's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    Westfield, IN
    Posts
    300

    Default Re: The Pacers Problem? They can't shoot!

    The offense desperately needs a consistent, inside physical threat. Hibbert is the only option and I don't think his teammates trust him yet to throw him the ball.

Similar Threads

  1. The Official Pacers Digest F.A.Q. Thread
    By Hicks in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 81
    Last Post: 09-02-2013, 05:30 PM
  2. Pacers-Celtics Matchups (IndyStar)
    By ChicagoJ in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 04-28-2010, 09:36 AM
  3. Replies: 234
    Last Post: 03-21-2009, 08:46 PM
  4. Pacers Blue Print from Insider
    By Jose Slaughter in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 19
    Last Post: 07-07-2004, 06:10 PM
  5. From Pacers insider.
    By Will Galen in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 03-24-2004, 08:42 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •