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Thread: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

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    Default Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    Dave in indy:
    How soon before Bird and the Pacers deal Branden Rush , who has disappointed so far?

    Steve Kyler:
    Who takes him?... you never want to trade when a player is struggling, you won;t get value... there is a reason Brandon Rush was there at 13 in 2008 and a reason he was traded... The Pacers in general are not playing very well, I think the Jim O'Brien system is not effective in the NBA... you may win some games, but I don't think you can be a power team forcing that much ball movement.

    The Pacers really like Brandon so I doubt seriously they look to move him, I also don't think anyone would give them any value for him.

    It seems like the bottom is failing out on Rush. Unfortunately it looks like a sub-par pick at best
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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    Welcome to the board, thank you for the posting it, do you have a link?

    Ya, there isn't a reason to move him, not just because his value is low, but because he's on a low cost rookie contract. He's worth more to the Pacers to develop into a player/asset than he is in any kind of trade other than an add in. At least at this point.
    Last edited by Speed; 12-02-2009 at 12:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    Dave in indy:
    How soon before Bird and the Pacers deal Branden Rush , who has disappointed so far?

    Steve Kyler:
    Who takes him?... you never want to trade when a player is struggling, you won;t get value... there is a reason Brandon Rush was there at 13 in 2008 and a reason he was traded... The Pacers in general are not playing very well, I think the Jim O'Brien system is not effective in the NBA... you may win some games, but I don't think you can be a power team forcing that much ball movement.

    The Pacers really like Brandon so I doubt seriously they look to move him, I also don't think anyone would give them any value for him.

    It seems like the bottom is failing out on Rush. Unfortunately it looks like a sub-par pick at best
    IMHO.....at this stage in his career.....the only aspect of picking BRush at the 13th spot that I can see as "sub-par" is that he wasn't entirely NBA-Ready...or at least NBA-Ready for JO'Bs system.

    Just like Hibbert....I'm going to hold judgement on BRush until we see him play under a different Offensive / Defensive System ( which hopefully be in another year or sooner if things don't work out ). I will concede that a Starting Material Player that was NBA-Ready that his talent should shine in any System.....but when it comes to what I consider a "Thinking Man's Offense/Defense" like the one that JO'B employs....I'm going to have to give BRush ( and Hibbert ) the benefit of the doubt for now.

    Ask me again before the Trade Deadline and I would probably give you a different answer. For now, it's too soon to consider BRush a "sub-par" pick.

    As for the assessment from Steve Kyler that "there is a reason why he was there at the 13th spot", I'm not sure what he's expecting out of a 13th pick. We all hoped that he's going to be the future Starting SG for the Pacers, but at the 13th pick...as count55 has pointed out in his "what to expect from a Draft pick" thread....I look at BRush ( for now ) as a solid rotational 7th to 8th GF that fills a specific role on the Team. For me, that's BRush's "floor" with the hope that he'll be more. As I mentioned before......none of us change "what was"...we can only deal with what we have no and move forward. After his poor outing so far this season, I had to re-adjust my expectations of BRush....but given what we had to give up to get him ( not much ) and what we got back for hiim....I'm not going to complain about his play so far nor wish that we draft CDR or Courtney Lee instead of him....I'm going to simply ride it out.
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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Welcome to the board, thank you for the posting it, do you have a link?

    Ya, there isn't a reason to move him, not just because his value is low, but because he's on a low cost rookie contract. He's worth more to the Pacers to develop into a player/asset than he is in any kind of trade other than an add in. At least at this point.
    Thank you , sorry I will repost the link

    http://www.hoopsworld.com/Chat.asp?CHAT_TOPICS_ID=633
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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    IMHO.....at this stage in his career.....the only aspect of picking BRush at the 13th spot that I can see as "sub-par" is that he wasn't entirely NBA-Ready...or at least NBA-Ready for JO'Bs system.

    Just like Hibbert....I'm going to hold judgement on BRush until we see him play under a different Offensive / Defensive System ( which hopefully be in another year or sooner if things don't work out ). I will concede that a Starting Material Player that was NBA-Ready that his talent should shine in any System.....but when it comes to what I consider a "Thinking Man's Offense/Defense" like the one that JO'B employs....I'm going to have to give BRush ( and Hibbert ) the benefit of the doubt for now.

    Ask me again before the Trade Deadline and I would probably give you a different answer. For now, it's too soon to consider BRush a "sub-par" pick.

    As for the assessment from Steve Kyler that "there is a reason why he was there at the 13th spot", I'm not sure what he's expecting out of a 13th pick. We all hoped that he's going to be the future Starting SG for the Pacers, but at the 13th pick...as count55 has pointed out in his "what to expect from a Draft pick" thread....I look at BRush ( for now ) as a solid rotational 7th to 8th GF that fills a specific role on the Team. For me, that's BRush's "floor" with the hope that he'll be more. As I mentioned before......none of us change "what was"...we can only deal with what we have no and move forward. After his poor outing so far this season, I had to re-adjust my expectations of BRush....but given what we had to give up to get him ( not much ) and what we got back for hiim....I'm not going to complain about his play so far nor wish that we draft CDR or Courtney Lee instead of him....I'm going to simply ride it out.
    Great point, I think what makes Rush frustrating is he seems to have all the "physical tools" but not the mental make up/
    .

    Can you imagine Rush's talent combined with Tyler's aggressiveness?
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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    http://www.hoopsworld.com/Chat.asp?CHAT_TOPICS_ID=634


    Eric P in Naptown:

    Hello Coach, Does Larry Bird think that Pacer fans are unintelligent? He said "I want to see all the players healthy before judging" They are all healthy and we are pathetic. O' Brien is on his 3rd year and were regressing!

    Mike Moreau:

    He's got a point in that you can't make true, accurate assessments until you have all of your pieces in place. But, that only holds up for so long. The Rockets are making anyone who talks about injuries look silly, even though it is a legitimate stance to take - up to a point.

    More

    Michael in Greencastle, IN:

    Is it too early for the Pacers to hit the panic button?

    Mike Moreau:

    It's too early for anyone to hit the panic button, but they can't give up 113, 123 and 126 and expect to beat anybody. Their D has gone in the tank.

    Eric P in Naptown:

    Coach, I am bias but I think Reggie Miller had the most beautiful jump shot in the history of the NBA! What made him so special and that stroke so sweet?

    Mike Moreau:

    You are biased, but it was sweet. He had an assassins mentality and a consistent motion and release, even though you wouldn't teach anyone the "crosshanded follow through." Sometimes the best at what they do just have their own way of doing things. He certainly ranks in that category.

    Eric P in Naptown:

    Coach just a thought but can we ban two words when referring to NBA players : "Thugs" and "Man Crush". I hate them both.

    Mike Moreau:

    I resent the collective "thug" term for NBA players, but we shouldn't hesitate to call a guy a "thug" if he truly is. The sad part is that term is misused on two fronts - as a critical term aimed at a group of people, and as a badge of honor by others. When I see little kids with a "Lil Thug" t-shirt, it makes me sick and sad at the same time.
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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    Great point, I think what makes Rush frustrating is he seems to have all the "physical tools" but not the mental make up/
    .

    Can you imagine Rush's talent combined with Tyler's aggressiveness?
    I think he has a good Basketball IQ....at least better then the average player.

    I just get the sense that he is a player that functions better as an "instinctual" player that allows his IQ to help him be a better player....as opposed to a "Thinking Player" that relies less on his instincts cuz he always has to know where he has to be on defense/offense when "X" player does this or does that.

    But I do agree that he does appear to be more passive then not. I guess it just depends on whose he's in the lineup with and whether he understands when he should be more agressive ( cuz he's the only real scorer in the lineup ) and when he should focus on the role that he has in the lineup ( as in being the primary defender of the best Wing Scorer when he's in the lineup with Dunleavy ).
    Last edited by CableKC; 12-02-2009 at 12:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    I watch Rush on the floor and see an extremely talented kid who for whatever reason doesn't seem confident in his abilities. He's hesitant in some situations, indecisive... all things that point to a confidence thing.

    Which is funny, because I can tell just by looking at him, watching his natural movements --- he's extremely talented. He just doesn't know it. He could be a tremendous player in this league if the confidence came to him.

    In my mind, it's a matter of if/when that confidence ever comes to him.

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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    Great point, I think what makes Rush frustrating is he seems to have all the "physical tools" but not the mental make up/
    .

    Can you imagine Rush's talent combined with Tyler's aggressiveness?
    Yep, I was looking at their stats and Tyler getting done in 15 mins a game, what B Rush takes 28 mins to do. Their stats are very very similar across the board.

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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    I think Brandon would be much better if the coach didn't force him to shoot. He might just be a Derrick McKey, Bruce Bowen, Doug Christie player instead of a Paul Pierce/Ron Artest type of player.

    If he was allowed to just go out there and focus on defense and rebounding, I think he would be more effective.
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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    Brandon is a great player and will improve. He has a bright NBA future hopefully with us.

    I don't understand the doubters. He's only in his second year and it's not playing as bad as people make it seem.

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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    Two things for BRush, what he needs badly skillwise, later, and the mindset of success, for now.

    One, it's too early for me to talk about the offseason, but Rush needs to work on exactly what he worked on last year, ball handling. He's afraid to have the ball in his hands. Not only ballhanding, but in traffic ballhandling.

    He has all of the behind the back and in motion moves, but he's not a strong dribbler and he knows it, so he's afraid to dribble in the half court with someone even close to him unless it's a two dribble open lane to the basket.

    He has to be able to handle the ball strongly.

    Secondly, for now, I'm with the group that wants him to focus on just 1 or 2 things while in a game. Say to him, okay we need you to be our best all around defender tonight, block weakside shots, draw a charge, shut your man down. Or get 5 offensive boards tonight. Break it down for him.

    I think you simplify it for him. I know I'm over simplifying things, but it's the mental aspect of things.

    What I would do with my lesser kids, when coaching grade school, who lacked confidence would be to say okay, go out there and go after every rebound, I don't care if you get even one, but we need you to go after them. The team needs you to do this. The kid would eventually get a board and he was mugging for his mom, you thought he won the MVP of the league.

    My point is this, there are ways to garner a successful feeling and environment.

    I know it's not gradeschool basketball, but it is human nature, imho.

    I hate to have to "handle" these guys, but if you can set up someone for success then why not do it.
    Last edited by Speed; 12-02-2009 at 01:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    I think Brandon would be much better if the coach didn't force him to shoot. He might just be a Derrick McKey, Bruce Bowen, Doug Christie player instead of a Paul Pierce/Ron Artest type of player.

    If he was allowed to just go out there and focus on defense and rebounding, I think he would be more effective.

    This!

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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    I think Brandon would be much better if the coach didn't force him to shoot. He might just be a Derrick McKey, Bruce Bowen, Doug Christie player instead of a Paul Pierce/Ron Artest type of player.

    If he was allowed to just go out there and focus on defense and rebounding, I think he would be more effective.
    UM, what position does he play?

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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    Quote Originally Posted by GuffeyRay View Post
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    UM, what position does he play?
    Guard? And he could focus on guarding. Since we are being literal.

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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    I think Brandon would be much better if the coach didn't force him to shoot. He might just be a Derrick McKey, Bruce Bowen, Doug Christie player instead of a Paul Pierce/Ron Artest type of player.

    If he was allowed to just go out there and focus on defense and rebounding, I think he would be more effective.
    This is pretty much what I expect out of Brandon, and I am happy with that. I think he can play SF quite well.

    The more this season goes on I want to see Danny playing the PF spot, move Rush to SF, and play Djones at SG. We should be playing our best defensive players together.

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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    Quote Originally Posted by Burtrem Redneck View Post
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    This is pretty much what I expect out of Brandon, and I am happy with that. I think he can play SF quite well.

    The more this season goes on I want to see Danny playing the PF spot, move Rush to SF, and play Djones at SG. We should be playing our best defensive players together.
    Yep and it was during the win streak too.

    I was against Danny at PF, but I think it allows you get your best players on the floor and Danny isn't as undersized at the PF in today's game.

    I would like to see, DJones, Dunleavy, Granger, which I think is likely the way they'll start to close out games.

    Obie said he wants to come out of this West Coast trip with a rotation intact, I don't believe he will, but it'll be interesting to see if he tries to.

    Lastly, I was the guy that said go completely back to the defensive-minded group that put together that win streak and held oppenents to low scoring/shooting percentages.

    This is the bill of goods I was sold that defense would be the focus and what merits playing time. Evidently now it's plus/minus. Hard to keep up, really.

    Part of me is slightly hopeful because I think D. Jones can be a middle linebacker/defensive captain for this team.

    It would be nice if they could change the teams personality, but I don't think the personnell is there or at least won't be on the court enough.
    Last edited by Speed; 12-02-2009 at 01:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    my thoughts on rush are very similar to many of you. the main difference imho is that you dont sense that killer instinct...almost as though he were content with his collegiate achievements. aside from last month of last season, we havent really seen him rise (or try to) to the occasion and be a more dominant force on offense.
    at the same time, its pretty apparent that the pressure is getting to him, and he's going away from the versatility of his game and settling for 3s and jumpshots...and unfortunately is not hitting. rush has to know that hes not a pure shooter, and can offer a lot more to the table than just a weak 3 pt shot. maybe its the "sophmore slump," or maybe hes just not developing quite right, but i still think its too early to tell with him. hes frustrating as all hell, and i really hope he can turn the corner and be more comfortable and confident. this kid can have a legit future in the nba.

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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    Quote Originally Posted by Trophy View Post
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    Brandon is a great player and will improve. He has a bright NBA future hopefully with us.

    I don't understand the doubters. He's only in his second year and it's not playing as bad as people make it seem.
    I can't obviously speak for everyone my friend but I think its the fact that Rush seems to be regressing after such a promising last month of the season
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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Yep and it was during the win streak too.

    I was against Danny at PF, but I think it allows you get your best players on the floor and Danny isn't as undersized at the PF in today's game.

    I would like to see, DJones, Dunleavy, Granger, which I think is likely the way they'll start to close out games.

    Obie said he wants to come out of this West Coast trip with a rotation intact, I don't believe he will, but it'll be interesting to see if he tries to.

    Lastly, I was the guy that said go completely back to the defensive-minded group that put together that win streak and held oppenents to low scoring/shooting percentages.

    This is the bill of goods I was sold that defense would be the focus and what merits playing time. Evidently now it's plus/minus. Hard to keep up, really.

    Part of me is slightly hopeful because I think D. Jones can be a middle linebacker/defensive captain for this team.

    It would be nice if they could change the teams personality, but I don't think the personnell is there or at least won't be on the court enough.

    lol, at that!!

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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    I think Brandon would be much better if the coach didn't force him to shoot. He might just be a Derrick McKey, Bruce Bowen, Doug Christie player instead of a Paul Pierce/Ron Artest type of player.

    If he was allowed to just go out there and focus on defense and rebounding, I think he would be more effective.
    This is why PRIOR to the draft I warned everyone that Brandon was McKey at shooting guard, passive to a fault at times. He likes to play a thinking man's, role player game. I like that about him actually.

    What I don't like is JOB's system for him and the refusal to use him in a way that fits his talent. He's a go-between glue type, a make up the difference on a play guy. He's not your main player and usually doesn't want to be.

    This is why he looks best when playing off of the more dominating Dahntay and Granger. If he had a coach that ran more tradition half-court plays and a PG willing to work that system (getting minutes that is), he'd be a great fit.

    But then I think Price would be a solid PG to run that type of offense and that you would be better off centering around Roy with Danny getting his looks coming on passes out of the post than just chucking quickly on outside shots.



    BTW, there is also a reason why BAYLESS was traded too. Or did I miss the part where he was getting big minutes, was not in trade rumors and didn't see Portland go acquire yet another PG in Andre Miller.

    I liked other options at 13, but Rush is hardly a disaster. I think he and Roy have been mostly right on track, except that both are having their confidence undermined by JOB and/or his system.

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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    and he's going away from the versatility of his game and settling for 3s and jumpshots.
    I thought we were talking about Rush, not Danny.

    Oh wait...


    When your star player is blowing the doors off of Reggie Miller's top 3PA per game rates, you have to consider what the system is telling all these guys to do.

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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    This is why PRIOR to the draft I warned everyone that Brandon was McKey at shooting guard, passive to a fault at times. He likes to play a thinking man's, role player game. I like that about him actually.

    What I don't like is JOB's system for him and the refusal to use him in a way that fits his talent. He's a go-between glue type, a make up the difference on a play guy. He's not your main player and usually doesn't want to be.

    This is why he looks best when playing off of the more dominating Dahntay and Granger. If he had a coach that ran more tradition half-court plays and a PG willing to work that system (getting minutes that is), he'd be a great fit.

    But then I think Price would be a solid PG to run that type of offense and that you would be better off centering around Roy with Danny getting his looks coming on passes out of the post than just chucking quickly on outside shots.



    BTW, there is also a reason why BAYLESS was traded too. Or did I miss the part where he was getting big minutes, was not in trade rumors and didn't see Portland go acquire yet another PG in Andre Miller.

    I liked other options at 13, but Rush is hardly a disaster. I think he and Roy have been mostly right on track, except that both are having their confidence undermined by JOB and/or his system.

    2 great points Seth, although one could argue that Bayless at least has shown capable of exploding in limited minutes
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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    BTW Speed, great advice on the coaching aspect.

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    Default Re: Strong Comments on Rush/O'Brien

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    2 great points Seth, although one could argue that Bayless at least has shown capable of exploding in limited minutes
    And Brandon didn't last year down the stretch? I was at that final game when he and Danny just went nuts.

    This is identical to his games at Kansas. Typically he was more comfortable letting Chalmers be the main guy with the ball and Arthur being the main point of attack. The plan would be to feed the post and Rush would then fill in the play off of that, whatever was needed.

    So he'd go long stretches of not being active as a scorer or passing over shots. Then he'd have a game here and there where he'd just go off for huge scoring. But that was under the umbrella of Chalmers and Arthur and even Collins being more of the focus.

    To me he fared best when he was able to read plays and find a need he could fill on the fly. And I think we've seen that with the Pacers too. Just look at his rebounding in the Clippers game. He was noticeably aggressive on the glass all game and had the box score to back it.

    Maybe you don't need rebounds from your SG per se, but then that's not what he always does. I think even now while he's "slumping" he's looking for a way to impact the game.

    I think the issue is that JOB's style, especially they "hey, your open, shoot it" mindset does not match with his jack-of-all-trades behind the scenes attitude. To me his entire game goes exactly against quick shooting because your open. I think he wants to play off of set plays and established roles.

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