Results 1 to 20 of 20

Thread: Jim O'Brien Basketball and the State of the Pacers

  1. #1
    The light, not the lie. kester99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Disgusta, GA
    Posts
    8,821
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Jim O'Brien Basketball and the State of the Pacers

    The major topics on this board recently (and almost always) seem to be:

    1. How good are the Pacers?
    2. Do they care about defense?
    3. What the heck is JOB's offense doing?
    4. Why is / isn't Player X playing?

    The opinions on the board, of course, represent the full spectrum of answers...from the highly insightful 'What defense?" and "We suck" analyses to actual attempts to analyze the pick-and-roll defense...from "all we do is jack up threes" to "I have no idea what we were trying to do there"...from "go with the small line-up," and "Luther Head should start" to 'small ball is an abomination" or "JOB loves Troy and will play him no matter that he is the worst defensive player on the team," or "Roy is being ruined by not starting."

    OK, maybe that's not a full spectrum of opinion, but it is pretty much the spectrum I've been reading here lately.

    I posted a comment / question in the Eight Points, Nine Seconds blog post-game analysis of the recent loss to the Macericks. I said:

    .....maybe I missed it, but I didn’t hear anyone say we need to take it to the basket more, and quit settling, or immediately choosing, the long jump shot. They should say that. They should do that. But I don’t hear any comments that tell me they’re even thinking about it. Would that thought be against some JOB philosophy? Do we have to make the 3s drop first, then we can attack the basket? But not until then?

    Tim Donahue, our Count55, took the trouble to post a rather lengthy reply (much appreciated), in which he said that, contrary to popular opinion at PD, he felt that the great majority of JOB's focus was the defense. Here's the link:
    http://www.eightpointsnineseconds.co...gile/#comments

    It made me want to do a little analysis of JOB's approach to basketball and coaching, and to see how it is actually playing out with our team in the early days of the current season. I am not the basketball analyst that many on this board are, but I can read, so I went looking for quotes past and present to try to clarify our current state of affairs, and JOB's thoughts. I've tried to organize these by topic, and by chronology (oldest to newest) within the topic areas. Obviously, these are not all the quotes that exist, but I think they fairly represent JOB's views within each topic.

    Defense:

    Eric Matz (Indianapolis): In your previous NBA coaching stints, which season do you feel, personally, you did the best job, and why?

    Jim O'Brien: It's a good question, I think we had fairly solid years each time I was a head coach, but my first full year with the Celtics was probably the best, when we went from 27th in the league in FG defense to third and not only did we make the playoffs after a long drought, but we won two playoff series where we were probably underdogs in both series. We grew alot in one year, so that would probably make that our best year.
    -- http://www.nba.com/pacers/chat/obrien_070613.html

    "He tells us the offensive end is ours, the defensive end is his," O'Neal said. "We have to play the way he wants us to play [defensively]."

    (article removed) http://www.philly.com/dailynews/spor...ldnt_stay.html

    "It is kind of complex," says Pacers associate head coach Lester Conner. "Take the pick and roll: When we are defending the pick and roll, it's not just two guys defending it; the whole team has responsibility."

    "Some of the things we do here are contrary to other [teams'] defenses," explained O'Brien. "It took time to pick it up in Boston. It took time to pick it up in Philadelphia. Once they get it, they will learn to trust each other -- and they will get it."
    -- http://www.fannation.com/blogs/post/...obriens-system

    Offense:

    Jim O'Brien: There are a number of things. No. 1 is to create a better tempo that will have us attacking before the defense can set themselves. Rick Carlisle is a good set offense coach, but I prefer a higher tempo and will challenge our team..on a miss shot and a made shot...to get the ball across halfcourt in three seconds, which should prevent the defense from setting themselves, so we'll be more unpredictable than we were in the past.

    One of the big things in having a team being successful with the three-ball, is having a coach committed to it. We don't want to take bad three-point shots, our definition of a good three is when we have a standstill open three-pointer.

    -- http://www.nba.com/pacers/chat/obrien_070613.html

    Rotations:

    Ike's minutes, like everyone else on the team, will be based on his performance.

    -- http://www.nba.com/pacers/chat/obrien_070613.html


    "The whole plan throughout the preseason was to pretty much play the team that we had success with at the end of last year," O'Brien said, "but we weren't healthy enough to do that."
    -- http://www.indystar.com/article/2009...tarting-lineup


    Coach Jim O'Brien had no problem calling out Hibbert and Solomon Jones after the game. O'Brien's didn't like that they only combined for three rebounds. He expects more out of his two centers. The two have to produce if they expect to get extended minutes now that Troy Murphy is back and Jeff Foster is expected to be back at Charlotte on Sunday. -- Mike Wells
    -- http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsi...he_pacers.html

    Rotation and Returning Players:

    "That's a luxury to be able to do that," O'Brien said. "As always, guys that deserve to play will play. It's that simple. That's not a decision I really have to spend a lot of time thinking about. What it gives the coaching staff is some unbelievable options."

    "The idea is that as we're getting these guys acclimated, we (also have to) win some basketball games," O'Brien said.
    -- http://www.indystar.com/article/2009...em-for-coaches

    "Our rotation is being thought about," O'Brien said. "For me to tell you that I am comfortable with the rotation right now, that would be inaccurate. It's a combination of guys coming from the inactive to the active list.''
    --http://www.indystar.com/article/20091129/SPORTS04/911290354/1004/SPORTS/Dunleavy-feels-good-after-season-debut

    All The Above:

    "There definitely will not be a slower tempo," O'Brien said. "We played statistically at the third-highest pace in the NBA and had the second-most possessions and I know when we're playing our best we're a difficult team to guard. So it has nothing to do with our offensive tempo.
    "It comes down to utilizing a little deeper rotation, maybe a 10-person rotation and having the players know that our staff, and I would say the players themselves, will lean heavily toward the defensive end when it comes time to evaluating who should play and who should not."
    -- http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsi..._the_pace.html

    So where are we really now?

    It seems clear to me, though you may disagree, that we are seeing the same JOB approach this year, as last year, as we would have seen if we watched his Philly and Boston years. He wants a certain style of defense which is a bit complicated, and when it clicks and gets stops, it lets the offense push the ball. We are then more likely to find a disorganized opposition defense, and to find an open early shot. Because the defense is more complicated than the offense, it gets the most work in practice.

    It also seems clear that the goal is to win, to get into the play-offs. We're not going to play rookies and 2nd year players just to develop them at the price of a worse record. And I don't think that's driven by JOB. Bird has been very clear about our play-offs goal for this year. If we fired JOB tomorrow, the post-season would be the new coach's goal.

    For our player rotation, O'Brien would like a ten-man rotation if he can get it. He wants to allocate minutes as they're earned, with stress on defensive effort.
    Complicating that, however, has been our constantly changing pool of available players...and who the players were that were not available. (When Travis Diener becomes available again, it's unlikely to cause critical rotation decisions. When the returning player is Dunleavy, Foster or Murphy, decisions must be made.)

    Finally, the return of players to the active roster is not the end-state the coach has to base his rotational decisions on...it's only, finally, the beginning. We are only now at a point where the coach can make a judgement as to which combinations of players are most effective. He can't say right now that Earl Watson and Dunleavy would be a better 1-2 than T.J. Ford and Brandon Rush, because they've never played together. You can't go with the starting five of our win streak if you want to add Dunleavy to the starters, or maybe if you're the coach and you begin to see a fall-off in performance from one of those players. Until recently (based on recent JOB and Dunleavy quotes) the Pacers haven't even really been able to field two full squads for practice. So, it's just going to take some time...maybe the length of this road trip? longer?...before we see a rotation begin to solidify, I think.

    And then, and soon, I truly hope we find a solid rotation and stick with it, because the players need that stability. The obvious disarray we've often displayed on offense this season speaks to the effects of constant line-up changes more than anything else, as I see it.

    Inevitably, some folks here at PD are going to be disappointed when their favorite player is not in that starting unit. And that will seem like the perfect place to start criticising when we lose a game. But maybe they'll be somewhat mollified if we start winning with regularity again.
    Last edited by kester99; 11-30-2009 at 12:44 AM.
    [~]) ... Cheers! Go Pacers!

  2. The Following 10 Users Say Thank You to kester99 For This Useful Post:


  3. #2
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,585
    Mood

    Default Re: Jim O'Brien Basketball and the State of the Pacers

    Since I'm about to disagree with you, I wanted to preface by saying I applaud your post for the time and effort you clearly put into it, and I appreciate you doing so. I love it when posts like this come around.

    Now:

    The point of "win now, make the playoffs", aside from the additional revenue and fan interest, centers around giving the young guys, the ones we see as part of our future core post-2011, playoff seasoning so they'll be primed to help our stars win playoff series. I don't see a lot of seasoning if they're fringe rotation players if we even get there.

    Furthmore, the argument being made by some of us is that even if all you do care about is winning now (no matter who makes it happen), you still should be playing the young guys more because they are BETTER than our vets. Sure, less consistent, but better, and they will get consistent more quickly by playing more rather than less.

  4. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Hicks For This Useful Post:


  5. #3
    Play McRoberts and Price! BRushWithDeath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Johnson's Bay, Lake Wawasee
    Age
    27
    Posts
    5,204

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Jim O'Brien Basketball and the State of the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by kester99 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The major topics on this board recently (and almost always) seem to be:

    1. How good are the Pacers?
    2. Do they care about defense?
    3. What the heck is JOB's offense doing?
    4. Why is / isn't Player X playing?
    1. Not very. Mediocre at best. Looks plenty worse than last year.

    2. Not a lick.

    3. Jacking tons of 3s and having little to no movement.

    4. JOB has his veteran favorites that uses as a crutch to not only the detriment of the club's future but also it's present.
    "I had to take her down like Chris Brown."

    -Lance Stephenson

  6. #4
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,585
    Mood

    Default Re: Jim O'Brien Basketball and the State of the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    1. Not very. Mediocre at best. Looks plenty worse than last year.

    2. Not a lick.

    3. Jacking tons of 3s and having little to no movement.

    4. JOB has his veteran favorites that uses as a crutch to not only the detriment of the club's future but also it's present.
    Well, that's a good example of kester's point about drive-by critiques.

  7. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Hicks For This Useful Post:


  8. #5
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    31,981

    Default Re: Jim O'Brien Basketball and the State of the Pacers

    I don't know how a team could possibly be 6th best defensive FG% team and not give a lick about defense

  9. #6
    The light, not the lie. kester99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Disgusta, GA
    Posts
    8,821
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Jim O'Brien Basketball and the State of the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Now:

    The point of "win now, make the playoffs", aside from the additional revenue and fan interest, centers around giving the young guys, the ones we see as part of our future core post-2011, playoff seasoning so they'll be primed to help our stars win playoff series. I don't see a lot of seasoning if they're fringe rotation players if we even get there.

    Furthmore, the argument being made by some of us is that even if all you do care about is winning now (no matter who makes it happen), you still should be playing the young guys more because they are BETTER than our vets. Sure, less consistent, but better, and they will get consistent more quickly by playing more rather than less.
    And I don't necessarily disagree with that POV. But I think O'Brien may well believe that he has to do a 'due diligence' look at the combos he has now, that he didn't have two weeks ago.

    He may well end up with Roy, Dahntay and/or Brandon in the starters...but how does he justify no Dunleavy or Murphy or Foster unless he gives them a spin?

    Again, that's trying to see it from his side. Me, I'm just waiting to see the next game. I don't get wrapped around the axle too much by who starts. The lack of driving to the basket bothers me a lot more.
    [~]) ... Cheers! Go Pacers!

  10. #7

    Default Re: Jim O'Brien Basketball and the State of the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I don't know how a team could possibly be 6th best defensive FG% team and not give a lick about defense
    113-92

    My drive-by critique.

  11. #8
    Step aside, King James BlueNGold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    14,450

    Default Re: Jim O'Brien Basketball and the State of the Pacers

    Another drive by:

    1. How good are the Pacers?

    We don't know. We had a line-up that won 5 straight games for the first time in years, but didn't give it a chance to prove or disprove itself. Assuming it was not better, we are probably worse than last year because we lost Jarrett Jack, Quis and Rasho.

    2. Do they care about defense?

    Not sure who "they" is. If you mean JOb, yes he cares about defense. He just cares about offense more.

    You can always tell how someone feels when they get emotional about something. There was a game last year where the Pacers beat Golden State 127-120. JOb was absolutely giddy after that game...more animated than I ever saw him. Just to paraphrase a couple people: JOb said something to the effect that the game was played the way basketball should be played...notwithstanding the fact the Warriors had a better FG% that the Pacers during the game and scored 120 points. Jarrett Jack said it was like playground ball.

    Personally, I believe Rick Carlisle would have had a different reaction...and I know he loves defense. That's the difference. Make your own conclusions.

    3. What the heck is JOB's offense doing?

    It's attempting to get shots off before the defense settles...because they have no play-maker on the floor when TJ is running the show. IOW, like Bball often says, it's a gimmick. Now, as long as TJ is starting, I'm ok with it. Of course it has no chance of being successful in post-season play, but it probably is the best option when you don't have a real PG.

    4. Why is / isn't Player X playing?

    Money, personality issues and the coach's preference for offensive skill on the floor over other types of skills. IOW, I think highly paid players tend to get the nod...I think JOb is stroking TJ Ford....and I think JOb values different things in a player than a coach like Rick Carlisle (a more successful coach btw) which would favor a more methodical style and players that fit that profile. Players like Roy Hibbert and Dahntay Jones.

  12. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to BlueNGold For This Useful Post:


  13. #9
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,252

    Default Re: Jim O'Brien Basketball and the State of the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    Now:

    The point of "win now, make the playoffs", aside from the additional revenue and fan interest, centers around giving the young guys, the ones we see as part of our future core post-2011, playoff seasoning so they'll be primed to help our stars win playoff series. I don't see a lot of seasoning if they're fringe rotation players if we even get there.

    Furthmore, the argument being made by some of us is that even if all you do care about is winning now (no matter who makes it happen), you still should be playing the young guys more because they are BETTER than our vets. Sure, less consistent, but better, and they will get consistent more quickly by playing more rather than less.
    I kinda missed where this was officially stated to be accomplished by making the playoffs...where was this said?

    Is the young guns argument made for just Hibbert/Tyler?


    @BlueNGold:

    Did you even read the post? If you did, you would see where point 2 seems to be disproven, and the more I think about it, I think that I've been viewing Jimmy the wrong way...

  14. #10

    Default Re: Jim O'Brien Basketball and the State of the Pacers

    I have several thoughts here...

    - The Pacers are better then what they have shown lately. They are not full of young guys learning how to play. This team has the talent to be .500.

    - I don't think the offense plays to the team's strength. I think to have a fast pace offense be good you need a better decision maker then TJ at the point to start with. While TJ is capable he is too inconsistent IMO. As far as 3 point shooting goes this team is not full of quality 3 point shooters and I don't care for the freedom of allowing so many 3 point shots. The Pacers rank 23rd in team 3pt shooting at 32% and shoot an average of 20 threes per game. That is not playing to the strengths on offense.

    - You said that we are not going to play rookies and second year players just to develop them but I think that these rookie(s) and second year players are better then most. Brandon, Roy, and Tyler are all NBA ready they can and have made positive impacts to this team. I guess I just don't like how they are not allowed to be inconsistent they can get yanked from the starting lineup because of their age yet the starting point guard is a veteran and inconsistent and he still starts every game.

    I will say that I can see the argument to bench Brandon especially now that Dunleavy is back. At the very least Dahntay has outplayed him and deserves to start and Dunleavy could easily earn backup minutes over him. However I really believe that Roy should start and can help the team win. Sure he will have some ups and downs but if coach can live with that from his point guard why can't he do that with his center? Sure he gets in to foul trouble and part of that is his fault but from what I have seen he gets put in difficult situations sometimes with guards getting into the lane. With better perminter defense this would help.

    I'm just really down on this team right now. I am disappointed because this team is capable of being so much better. I am frustrated too because I have started to lose faith in coach O'Brien for a number of reasons and I just hope that he gets things figured out and that the players don't lose faith in him.
    Last edited by Young; 11-29-2009 at 10:17 PM.

  15. #11
    You are my Lucifer D-BONE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Nirvana
    Posts
    6,526

    Default Re: Jim O'Brien Basketball and the State of the Pacers

    Personally, I'm thinking about ten more games would be my limit as far as solidifying rotations and seeing at least some progress in terms of general consistency, especially when it comes to effort. That's probably my biggest complaint about the last five games or so.

    In the meantime, some of the questions are not without validity. I wouldn't say JOB doesn't care about defense. I would say that to this point in his tenure here, his teams have not grasped and/or been capable of playing the defense he's attempted to install. To those who say it's the players defensive liabilities, I'd respond that he's not helping his case relying so heavily on Murphy then.

    But let's go back to the Dallas game. Now they turned around and got smacked by a Cleveland team we hung with reasonably well in the last game of the starting five of the five game win streak. I know there are other factors, such as Dallas on second night of back to back on the road and so on and so forth. Yet, if we pay with any heart for the majority of the Mavs game, there's no way that team is that much better than us.

    So when are we going to see more consistent effort and team unity in the on-court performance? That, to me, should be more of the constant than the systematic and rotational aspects. In part that's on the players, but it also has to be on the coach, too.
    I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.

    -Emiliano Zapata

  16. #12
    Custom User Titleist
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Larry and Frank -- Birds of a Feather!
    Posts
    3,434
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Jim O'Brien Basketball and the State of the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I don't know how a team could possibly be 6th best defensive FG% team and not give a lick about defense
    I don't think it is a matter of caring about defense as players. I think they try until they see that it is doing them little good to try to follow the system due to foul trouble or simply not getting to the required spots for whatever reason, whether it be failure to read and react to the overall situation correctly or being unable to cover for the mistakes of others within the system and then being required to re-adjust and just not making it back to the area / player they are supposed to be keying on.

    I still feel like our guys are better suited to a more traditional defense where they are expected to just play more basic man defense with rotations for help more like Carlisle seemed to run, and Bird / Carlisle / Harter before that, coupled with slowing the tempo about 5 possessions per game with an extra man or two getting on the floor for more than 2 minutes, which would all serve to bolster our newfound defensive players overall performance on both ends of the floor due to not losing our legs for either defense or offense which is still definitely happening, and I believe will continue to due to O'Brien choosing to stay with a relatively similar rotational depth but switching who gets minutes and who no longer does.

    Currently, if any players were to attempt to play a more traditional defense, with less than 4 years in the NBA, they would find themselves benched due to not following the system, and I guess rightfully so due to the fact that if only one player makes a mistake our system collapses and leaves at least two players open for shots due to both the player that is likely the primary responsibility of the player who made the mistake is left open, but also anyone who then rotates for proper help to cover the mistake then leaves a weakness in their coverage as well.

    My beef with it is that the difficulty of execution of this system is that it is relatively easy for a disciplined team with good movement (which we also lack, but that is offense, not defense) to bait our players into mistakes and cause our defense to collapse, which seems to happen nearly every game with a higher frequency than it should.

    Why the FG% ranking is as good as it is seems counter to what appears to be happening on the court, and I suspect that it has to do with the opposing teams letting up / subbing during garbage time.

  17. #13

    Default Re: Jim O'Brien Basketball and the State of the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    3. What the heck is JOB's offense doing?

    It's attempting to get shots off before the defense settles...because they have no play-maker on the floor when TJ is running the show. IOW, like Bball often says, it's a gimmick.

    Aw, it is not because the Pacers have no playmaker or because it is a gimmick. (Not saying thoe statements aren't true, but only that they aren't the real reasons.)


    It is because, as you say, the defense is vulnerable before it gets set up. A fast break is the highest percentage offensive situation. For any team. O'Brien's emphasis on the fast attack offense is simply because he believes it gives his offense the best chance to score. And the love of the three is because a team's Effective Field Goal Percentage can easily be higher for 3s than for two-pointers. Unfortunately, the Pacers have been shooting the 3 badly this year. But they are also getting their inside shots blocked.


    This is a great thread, Tom K.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

  18. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Putnam For This Useful Post:


  19. #14
    Step aside, King James BlueNGold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    14,450

    Default Re: Jim O'Brien Basketball and the State of the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by flox View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    @BlueNGold:

    Did you even read the post? If you did, you would see where point 2 seems to be disproven, and the more I think about it, I think that I've been viewing Jimmy the wrong way...
    Yes, I certainly did read it...assuming the post you refer to is the original post by Kester.

    I don't read anything at face value...maybe to a fault. When Jim says he cares about defense, I hear him say the words but I don't believe it until I see proof. When I hear JO regurgitating the same thing, it means nothing.

    The word in the question was "care". I think JOb would be happier to win a game 150-145 than a game 90-85. What do you think?

    What is actually going on is that he knows the team must defend a certain way because of the way he wants to run the offense. They are intertwined and he has no choice but to mandate the defense. Otherwise, he has to put his toys away and play a traditional game....one that has a chance in the playoffs.

    He sums it up pretty well. "Some of the things we do here are contrary to other [teams'] defenses,"....well, perhaps all the other coaches with better records are doing it wrong. Maybe they need to take the advice of a coach who is 1-7 with a pretty full roster. I guess it's better than New Jersey...

  20. #15
    The light, not the lie. kester99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Disgusta, GA
    Posts
    8,821
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Jim O'Brien Basketball and the State of the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Personally, I'm thinking about ten more games would be my limit as far as solidifying rotations and seeing at least some progress in terms of general consistency,
    Agreed...maybe the limit and beyond...call it ten days instead of ten games and I'm there.

    I would like whoever is chosen to be the best possible combination, but finally it comes down to not having a firm starting line-up is more harmful than having a slightly wrong one.

    We'd be well into paralysis by analysis if it goes much longer than this road trip and a coupe of more games.
    [~]) ... Cheers! Go Pacers!

  21. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to kester99 For This Useful Post:


  22. #16
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,585
    Mood

    Default Re: Jim O'Brien Basketball and the State of the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by flox View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I kinda missed where this was officially stated to be accomplished by making the playoffs...where was this said?
    Words to that effect were spoken to me in person by David Morway a few weeks ago when I asked him about it in a Q&A I attended at Conseco (Inside the Front Office).

    Is the young guns argument made for just Hibbert/Tyler?
    He didn't name names. I would presume it to mean Hibbert, Rush, Tyler, '10 1st rounder, '11 first rounder.

  23. #17
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Posts
    52,585
    Mood

    Default Re: Jim O'Brien Basketball and the State of the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    My beef with it is that the difficulty of execution of this system is that it is relatively easy for a disciplined team with good movement (which we also lack, but that is offense, not defense) to bait our players into mistakes and cause our defense to collapse, which seems to happen nearly every game with a higher frequency than it should.
    I strongly agree with this. I don't like that our system can so easily fall apart and otherwise be picked apart by smart offenses.

    I'd prefer something more simple and fundamental.

  24. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Hicks For This Useful Post:


  25. #18
    The light, not the lie. kester99's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Disgusta, GA
    Posts
    8,821
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Jim O'Brien Basketball and the State of the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I strongly agree with this. I don't like that our system can so easily fall apart and otherwise be picked apart by smart offenses.

    I'd prefer something more simple and fundamental.
    I might agree with this also, but we can be sure JOB doesn't. He quit Boston, leaving 6 million on the table, when Ainge let some of his favorite defensive stalwarts and Dick Harter go.

    So I'm resigned to the defensive scheme we have, and I'm glad it seems to be working a bit better this year.

    What I think we have to see, again, is change on the offensive side...more attack the basket, fewer outside shots. I really don't think O'Brien would be against that, having read through the various articles I culled these quotes from, but is he stressing it or emphasizing it? I'd like to think so, (and a million dollars...I'd also like a million dollars) and we may be able to tell watching the next few games.
    [~]) ... Cheers! Go Pacers!

  26. #19
    Junior Member
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    2,252

    Default Re: Jim O'Brien Basketball and the State of the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Yes, I certainly did read it...assuming the post you refer to is the original post by Kester.

    I don't read anything at face value...maybe to a fault. When Jim says he cares about defense, I hear him say the words but I don't believe it until I see proof. When I hear JO regurgitating the same thing, it means nothing.

    The word in the question was "care". I think JOb would be happier to win a game 150-145 than a game 90-85. What do you think?

    What is actually going on is that he knows the team must defend a certain way because of the way he wants to run the offense. They are intertwined and he has no choice but to mandate the defense. Otherwise, he has to put his toys away and play a traditional game....one that has a chance in the playoffs.

    He sums it up pretty well. "Some of the things we do here are contrary to other [teams'] defenses,"....well, perhaps all the other coaches with better records are doing it wrong. Maybe they need to take the advice of a coach who is 1-7 with a pretty full roster. I guess it's better than New Jersey...
    Wait a minute, this is assuming we have a good defensive roster- even if we play our defensive roster are we even an above average defensive team? I see us still having problems with 1's, 2's, 4's and 5's. Even if we play that- we still can't score a lick to save ourselves. He doesn't make a defense to run an offense- he gives the offense away and lets them play defense to cover our lack of still elite defensive players. We still have to score. Personally,I think he'd be happy if we just won the game.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Words to that effect were spoken to me in person by David Morway a few weeks ago when I asked him about it in a Q&A I attended at Conseco (Inside the Front Office).
    Wow that's really cool, I guess that's a perk of living near Indy!

  27. #20
    Step aside, King James BlueNGold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    14,450

    Default Re: Jim O'Brien Basketball and the State of the Pacers

    Quote Originally Posted by flox View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Wait a minute, this is assuming we have a good defensive roster- even if we play our defensive roster are we even an above average defensive team? I see us still having problems with 1's, 2's, 4's and 5's. Even if we play that- we still can't score a lick to save ourselves. He doesn't make a defense to run an offense- he gives the offense away and lets them play defense to cover our lack of still elite defensive players. We still have to score. Personally,I think he'd be happy if we just won the game.
    It's so easy for me to win these debates when the truth is on my side. I must say you do a great job of swimming upstream though. No kidding.

    "Can't score a lick"....what? The Pacers with their "defensive roster" averaged nearly 102 points a game. With the great Troy Murphy available, it averaged 94.7 points.

    How can that possibly be? I thought he was our 2nd best player.

    I understand it may have been better competition, but even when you drop Dallas, Atlanta and Denver, the average drops down to 92.5 for the Troy squad.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •