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Thread: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

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    Administrator Peck's Avatar
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    Default Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    Honest to God people I really was trying to hold off on doing another one of these until we had a win, but with this team.....

    I feel really bad that I did not get any up during the win streak so I don't want people to think that the only time I want to post something is when we lose.

    Having said that, let's move forward.

    Ok, like everyone else I got the message that we were changing our starting lineup. In all honesty it is hard to argue against the coach making some kind of move because the previous two games were a little rough, in particular the Bobcats game.

    Needless to say I just don't agree with his choices of who he benched and who he started but hey, it's his call to make.

    Do I start off with the good or the bad from this game? Yes, surprisingly there was some good in this game. Not much mind you but some.

    Yeah let's do that first.

    Tyler showed me a new aspect to his game tonight. Defense on a star player.

    Folks he stopped Chris Bosh dead in his tracks on two straight plays in the second half. Actually Bosh was a player I wanted to try and compare Tyler to for physical size because I think Chris is deceptively strong. However there was no comparison. Tyler was literally a tank and could go wherever he wanted and there was nothing Bosh was going to do to stop him and on the other end Bosh could not go inside on Tyler.

    Now don't get me wrong, I am not claiming that for the game or any game for that matter that Tyler is now a defensive stopper. But in this game he showed me signs that he can at least play defense.

    Why he played so few min. is a real shame, I would say mystery but we all know why he did not get many min. in this game.

    Again for a player that I expected nothing from I am being pleasantly surprised in more games than not.

    Danny Granger had a good second half from the field. I hesitate to put this in the good part of my thread but that is really how far we are reaching here to get some positive.

    Folks there is something wrong with Granger. I don't know what it is. It could be his heel, he could be fatigued, the losing could be getting to him or something else or all of the above. I don't know what it is but something is really wrong with him. If you watch him on the floor he looks like a zombie at times and really only displays any form of emotion after something really big or if he doesn't get a call from a ref.

    This is not the same Danny as last year who looked excited more times than not to be on the floor and was cheering on his team mates with every possession. It's not the fact that he is shooting poorly, God knows he has not been very good from the floor this year, but it is the way he is shooting. Almost as if he is just settling for the first thing he can get. That is why I am really not that thrilled with the second half performance. I mean really he just started to drop his three's. If they hadn't dropped?

    I hope it’s just the heel.

    Roy Hibbert pick and roll to the basket with Danny was very nice. He played scared almost all night though. Hard to blame him for that, he wasn't given very much confidence that he could play against the monster that is the Raptors front line.

    As to anything else good from the game? Lester Conners did not blow snot from his nose onto the court.

    Ok, that’s it that is all of the good I can think of from that game.

    Now let's look at the bad.

    Troy Murphy makes Brad Lohaus look like Charles Oakley.

    In the first quarter of the game Troy was back on defense (ok that statement in and of itself is pretty much a joke but you get my point) and one of the Raptor guards (I think it was Calderon) ran right up next to him to get off a shot. No pressure, no attempt to get in his path, hell not even a foul attempt was made on this play.

    The only thing missing from him was the red cape and the highly colored outfit because in my mind he pretty much just yelled Ole' as the guards went past him.

    Look I don't hate Troy Murphy, in fact I freely admit I wanted him on the team and was thrilled with the trade when it happened. But I thought I was getting Brad Miller light with him.

    I was wrong, pure and simple.

    He is what he is and his skill set would help many teams. He can shoot, he has made himself be able to drive a little and he does collect rebounds at a pretty amazing clip.

    But right now he is NOT what this team needs. Uncle Buck said at the party that there has never been a player he has missed less when he was injured than Troy and he was not wrong.

    The fact of the matter is that I would much prefer that every single min. he is on the floor right now be divided between Tyler, Solomon and Jeff.

    Do you have any idea how a player must be for me to want Jeff Foster in the game above them???

    I know Troy has his fans and I am sorry for coming down so hard on him because in a way it is not his fault. He is who he is and everybody knows this. But with the way our coach demands he be used I just have to say I would much rather he not be here.

    This brings us to our coach.

    So let me get this straight you were afraid that Roy would not be able to defend the Monsters of the midway (obviously they must be feared beasts because of O’Brien’s reaction to them) so you thought it best to bring in Jeff Foster who is not in game shape, still injured and 103 years of age. Oh and to help with that killer defense you wanted to play you decided it was in our best interest to take out our best defender and considered by many in the NBA one of the most fierce defenders and replace him with the stay puff marshmellow man? However since the marshmellow man can shoot three's he helps spread the floor for your great interior attack that you had planned by, well by, um..... anybody? How about nobody.

    Look I gave O'Brien credit last week for his coaching so I feel completely justified in ripping him here.

    I understand that players play. I understand that O'Brien does not tell them to just go out there and jack up wild outside shots. I understand he wants them to take good open uncontested shots.

    But at what point in time does the coach become responsible for player not understanding what a good shot is? When does it fall on him when they just settle for jump shot after jump shot?

    It would be one thing if he was over on the sidelines yelling to do something different. It would even be another thing if he was taking players out after failing to move the ball or settle for jump shots. But he just stands there, much like when Jamaal did his thing with the Suns a couple of years ago. He just stands there and thinks that because they practice this and he shows them film clips of this that he does not have to do anything other than say "keep doing what your doing" and they will magically transform into the 90's Bulls driving the lanes.

    I hate talking about O'Brien because what is going to happen is what happens every single time. Somebody is going to come on and call him a lousy coach and want him fired right now. This is overstated and wrong.

    Only to be outdone by the people who now feel the need to be the O'Brien defenders who really are not defending O'Brien but they are just going after the first set that are over reacting.

    It will just devolve from there.

    I will say this. Jim is a middle of the road coach. He is not 100% right and he is not 100% wrong. However there is truth in the fact that he employs an unorthodox offensive system. So it does open him up for criticism.

    However for the Raptors game, lousy coaching job from even before the tip off for making Roy afraid of his own shadow. To me you don't hide Roy and tell him "you just can't compete against these guys so better to sit over here and watch". You put him out there and if he fails he fails but he can learn from doing, not from being told he can't.

    Ok, enough about him.

    Let's lighten this up with a

    Brandon played ok, I mean ok for him. His defense was about what you would expect from him but he did appear to at least seem more interested in helping out on offense. Not a great deal of success mind you, but he did try at least which is a step in the right direction.

    D. Jones had an off game. I guess you could say that it was from having his role changed but he really seemed to be a little off tonight as well.

    Actually overall the body language was pretty poor. It was so poor in fact that Clark Kellogg talked about it on the broadcast.

    I didn't see the T.J. thing between him and O'Brien so I won't comment on it.

    I know that he once again seemed to be active on defense but also reverted a couple of times into jumping in the air without knowing what he was going to do with the ball.

    After watching Calderon again tonight I can see why they benched Ford.

    Head and S Jones both did what we pretty much expect of them given their new diminished role on the team.

    Watson at least hit a shot tonight; I was beginning to wonder if he ever was going to hit one again.

    Jeff Foster was Jeff Foster. Solid player who should be getting spot min. in a veteran leadership role. Not starter who we once again are depending on to defend the best interior player and stop the pick and rolls.

    I dread Mike Dunleavy's return.

    Not because I don't like Mike, I do. I just dread how this coach will be using him again.

    As of this moment I have almost zero doubt that we will once again be treated to Ford, Dunleavy, Granger, Murphy and Hibbert in the staring line up and we will once again be wondering why we are losing but scoring over 100 every game.

    Here is hoping we can snap out of this funk tonight.

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  3. #2
    You are my Lucifer D-BONE's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    Frankly, most teams have more talent up and down the roster than us. Not to mention experience. So we have to play well, not only in terms of excecution, but also in terms common purpose, mental focus, and intensity. In other words, we have to play harder and play together.

    We haven't done that during the losing streak with the possible exception of the Cavs game. We are not playing together. The guys look frustrated and disjointed as far as team work. No solidarity. This is evident also in the execution. No common purpose or commitment to TEAM defense. Lots of one-one one and quick jumpers on offense. Not enough sharing the ball, ball reversal, purposeful drive and kick, purposeful off-the-ball screening, cutting, etc.

    I agree with this questioning of the lineup changes. I agree Murphy is not, never has been, and never will be a defensive contributor. More of a definciency. I agree that the decision to restrict Roy's minutes against Toronto is questionable at best.

    But when push comes to shove, the team, and by that I mean players and coaches, have to find a way to recommit to consistently playing with excitement, passion, and force and reestablish a collective responsibility to the group.

    Maybe it is JOB and his micromanaging rotations, roles, and minutes that's undoing all the positivity. I don't know. But it will continue to be difficult until they figure out how to reenergize and change the dynamic. That could easily include the Clippers who are not bereft of talent. Hopefully, it's not too late to resolve some of this.

    And IF there is a rift based on TJ that's truly affecting the team and causing this lethargy and inconsistency to any extent, I wouldn't give it too much more time until Watson took over as the starter and Price started to see regular minutes. I'd be happy with the Price part regardless of the existence of the TJ thing anyway.
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    Why do we have a PG that refuses to try dish unless he's under the basket and triple teamed? Why do we play team defense by standing around for over half the game and watching the other team do whatever they want? Why does the coach pick his starting lineup with a roulette wheel? Why do we spend an entire quarter shooting jumpers and not even attempting to drive the lane?

    While I'm thinking of it...Why is it that most of the other coaches in the league start the same players, barring injury, 99% of the time. But JOB feels compelled to with the lineup on a continual basis? It's kind of a game within the game to try and guess who'll come off the bench when. Roy went by Rasho last night for a layup like Rasho was velcroed to the floor and looked pretty good while he was in there...and never saw the floor again

    Maybe it's time to ask if JOB has lost this team?

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    I think you need to add Foster's defense on Chris Bosh to the good part of your thread. Say whatever you want to about his age and number of minutes, but Bosh went 5-19 from the field. Jeff was a huge reason for that.

    I know that Jack's been in a slump all season, and he had a great game tonight. I'm still reminded how much more I enjoy watching him play than TJ Ford.
    "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Why he played so few min. is a real shame, I would say mystery but we all know why he did not get many min. in this game.
    No we don't. Why?
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    Tyler played 15 minutes and is limited to a maximim of 22, so he could have and should have played more. As I mentioned in the other thread, I really, really liked the Foster Hansbrough combo, at least you saw some effort, intensity with those two guys on the court. Overall I thought Foster played a great game, he was Jeff, but his defense was outstanding, defending Bosh as well as anyone could.

    I'll just repeat what I said in the other thread, I thought Ford's body language, effort, leadership was at a Tinsley level and as most of you know me that is probably the worst comparison I can ever make for a player. Ford should have been benched

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I'll just repeat what I said in the other thread, I thought Ford's body language, effort, leadership was at a Tinsley level and as most of you know me that is probably the worst comparison I can ever make for a player. Ford should have been benched
    I wonder if there's any way we could make Ford hate playing here enough that he'd decline his option for next season. I'm sure there's not. He's not stupid enough to take a $6-7 million paycut just to get out of town.

    I'd love to see TJ benched for tonight's game. It'd make my day.
    "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    No we don't. Why?
    (Hand up, waving wildly because I am quite confident that I have the right answer) Oooo! Ooooo! Pick me! Pick me!

    Because everyone knows that rookies and young players cannot be trusted, and that they all learn the game better by watching from the bench as opposed to playing in games?


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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    On the broadcast, Clark mentioned Tyler's doctor ordered minute limitation carries over to practice as well. He then went on to say that JOB has decided to use more of those minutes in practices and less in games for the time being. So that answers the minutes thing.

    He's practicing more and his game minutes will reflect that for a little while.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    I thought Murphy and Ford neither one had any business being on the floor. Troy at least finally came through on a couple of his bread-and-butter shots but it was almost too late by then.

    I felt like Foster did an excellent job on defense.

    I should have written it down, but didn't we get back in the game with Watson, D. Jones, S. Jones, Danny, and Tyler? I may be missing one there - was Roy in some instead of Solo during that period?

    I was frustrated with JOB because the above lineup was snatched away to stick TJ and Murphy back in, at which point we started seeing out-of-control wild flings to the basket again. TJ will fool people because some of those things work in desperation time, but we wouldn't be desperate if he'd taken care of the ball earlier in the game.

    I'd be ecstatic to see TJ and Troy sitting down, Danny resting his heel, and the rest of the team playing most of the minutes.
    BillS

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    I am going to put this rather strange column here.

    http://www.thestar.com/printarticle/730499

    Griffin: Jack has the last laugh on Pacers
    November 25, 2009

    Richard Griffin


    Toronto Raptor Jose Calderon defends against T.J. Ford as the Raptors beat the Indiana Pacers 123-112 at the Air Canada Centre in Toronto (Nov. 24, 2009).

    STEVE RUSSELL/TORONTO STAR

    Tuesday night was always going to be emotional for Raptors reserve guard Jarrett Jack, facing his former Pacers team led by his ex-teammate and rival for starting point guard, T.J. Ford.

    It was messy. Eight months ago there had been that physical dustup and shouting match between the two players during a timeout in a mid-March loss to the Mavericks. Jack was banished to the locker room by coach Jim O'Brien. When Jack became a free agent, the Pacers let him go to the Raptors with no counter-offer.

    Coach Jay Triano, understanding what was on the way last night in terms of personal issues for Jack, did his best to ease him into the game, keeping his man on the bench until there was just 2:50 left in the first quarter.

    Ford was firmly on the bench.

    Triano handled Jack's night with a deft touch that paid off in the second half.

    In the first half, Jack was able to take care of emotions, while in the second he was able to take care of business. Playing the entire second and fourth quarters often alongside fellow point guard Jose Calderon, Jack scored 17 points on a perfect 7-for-7 shooting night, with six assists and three rebounds in a 123-112 victory heading back onto the road.

    "He's different right now," Triano said of his ever-improving free agent. ``He's lighter off the floor. He's liking basketball now. He's beginning to know his role."

    Jack seems perfectly at ease with his new teammates both on and off the court.

    Last year was different. Jack and Ford had been co-point guards. The setup didn't work for the Pacers, just as it hadn't worked between Ford and Mo Williams in Milwaukee or Ford and Calderon with the Raps. In those situations it was always Ford that left.

    Ford is a shooting guard in a point guard's body, while Jack is a point guard in a shooting guard's body. As a Pacers combination they were toxic.

    Jack had to have strong emotions in his first time back on the floor against Indiana.

    "Coach Alvin Williams always talks to me about staying even-keeled," Jack insisted. "My emotions not getting too up, not getting too down but staying right in the middle and being able to put myself and everyone else in a successful position."

    This was a game Jack likely had circled since his first peek at the schedule, although he didn't admit it.

    "I have every game circled on my calendar," Jack said. "That's not trying to be politically correct. I get excited for every single game and I think that's why I played 82 games in consecutive seasons. I love game day. I can't wait to play Charlotte."

    Triano knew better. He glued Jack to the bench early on, waiting until 2:50 left in the first quarter before subbing him in.

    In the first six minutes he played without Ford on the floor, he scored two points, with nothing across the board. By the half, playing much of that time against his arch-rival, Jack had nine points, three assists and a steal.

    Whereas the first half was personal business, the second half became team business as the Pacers clawed back, cutting the Raptors' lead to five points with 38 seconds left in the third quarter.

    The Pacers began the third with a 26-16 run. When Jack entered, for Calderon it was no longer to prove something personal. It was for the team. Jack took control of the offence and helped fend off a furious run.

    When Calderon re-entered it was to play alongside Jack, a move that worked well giving Triano an extra option.

    "I felt extra energized," Jack said. "That may have something to do with me playing against my old team. I felt I was in a good rhythm. I just came out flying."

    The Pacers chapter of Jack's life is now closed with Triano's help. As they left the court, Calderon gave Ford a hug and a smile. Jack gave Ford a handshake and a glance.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 11-25-2009 at 11:09 AM.

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  19. #12
    Member Speed's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    I think this article is making too much of it. He was here for one okay year.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I thought Murphy and Ford neither one had any business being on the floor. Troy at least finally came through on a couple of his bread-and-butter shots but it was almost too late by then.

    I felt like Foster did an excellent job on defense.

    I should have written it down, but didn't we get back in the game with Watson, D. Jones, S. Jones, Danny, and Tyler? I may be missing one there - was Roy in some instead of Solo during that period?

    I was frustrated with JOB because the above lineup was snatched away to stick TJ and Murphy back in, at which point we started seeing out-of-control wild flings to the basket again. TJ will fool people because some of those things work in desperation time, but we wouldn't be desperate if he'd taken care of the ball earlier in the game.

    I'd be ecstatic to see TJ and Troy sitting down, Danny resting his heel, and the rest of the team playing most of the minutes.
    I carefully reviewed the second half to see who brought us back into the game and who helped us lose the lead again.

    The lineup you listed was primarily responsible for getting us back into the game (as close as five points). I was hoping to show that my biases for Roy and against Troy would be confirmed, but it really didn't play out that way.

    Roy was never in during the comeback. Hans did get replaced by Troy, but he didn't fairly well, hit some threes, and we stayed around ten behind or even single digits for several minutes.

    From what I could tell, we lost our steam when TJ Ford came in for Watson. TJ made several bonehead plays, turned the ball over, then failed to play defense on JJ at a critical time, leading to an uncontested three.

    Also, there's Toronto just being darn good on offense and various bad luck scenarios. But, for me, the key subbing problem was Watson for TJ.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarrett Jack View Post
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    "I have every game circled on my calendar," Jack said. "That's not trying to be politically correct. I get excited for every single game and I think that's why I played 82 games in consecutive seasons. I love game day.
    I was fine with losing Jack for DJones and Watson. But how can you not miss this guy's attitude?
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    "In the first six minutes he played without Ford on the floor, he scored two points, with nothing across the board. By the half, playing much of that time against his arch-rival, Jack had nine points, three assists and a steal."

    The reporter is trying to make a point that Jack's numbers came from wanting to outshine his rival from last year.

    No, it just came from being defended by TJ Ford and not Watson. Duh.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    We are not playing together. The guys look frustrated and disjointed as far as team work. No solidarity. This is evident also in the execution. No common purpose or commitment to TEAM defense. Lots of one-one one and quick jumpers on offense. Not enough sharing the ball, ball reversal, purposeful drive and kick, purposeful off-the-ball screening, cutting, etc.

    I really enjoyed your post, especially this part of it. You are right on the money. When this team plays as a TEAM they can play with any team. Even when they start out playing as a TEAM, they will go away from what is getting the job done. It's like they run from success. This to me is extremely frustrating. They don't seem to understand to stay with what is being successful. That includes O'Brien as well as the players. They need to concentrate on what makes them a successful TEAM and continue to do it. Don't stop midstream and start doing something else that isn't accomplishing what has been successful. Just stay with it. Don't start standing around looking & waiting for someone else to do something, make the extras pass, ball reversal, quit relying on the 3 point shot as the only means to win, drive to the basket, play "D" like your life depended on it (for some your career as a Pacer does), and play together as a TEAM. You'll win more games than you lose doing it not to mention even in a loss fans can appreciate and back a TEAM that gives this to them game after game.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    (Hand up, waving wildly because I am quite confident that I have the right answer) Oooo! Ooooo! Pick me! Pick me!

    Because everyone knows that rookies and young players cannot be trusted, and that they all learn the game better by watching from the bench as opposed to playing in games?


    Is that you Jimmy??


    Please go to the head of the class!

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    I was worried about reading this thread but man was that an excellent post, Peck! I even changed my signature in honor of something you wrote.

    There were so many good points regarding the lineup change in general, particularly the message that it sends to Roy. Rik Smits wasn't the best at covering the PNR either, especially early in his career, but he remained the starter and by the time the Pacers began competing in the Playoffs he was more than adequate at it. Also, he posed a huge mismatch for the opposition on the offensive side of the floor as well.

    Why do our coaches continue to cowtow to other team's lineups instead forcing them to guard our team? Carlisle did this a lot his last couple of seasons and O'Brien loves to change the lineups up for the same reason. If it's frustrating to us as the fans, I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to the players - especially when they've been playing well for over 8 games in-a-row and then are yanked after having 2 bad games.

    There is no good reason that Roy should've been reduced to just 12 minutes of play last night. He had zero fouls and was effective on offense. I didn't get to see the entire game, just the fourth quarter but I really don't understand why he was burried on the bench last night.
    Last edited by naptownmenace; 11-25-2009 at 01:58 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    GOOD GOD THAT'S LARRY BIRD'S MUSIC!

  28. #19
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    I was worried about reading this thread but man was that an excellent post, Peck! I even changed my signature in honor of something you wrote.

    There were so many good points regarding the lineup change in general especially the message that it sends to Roy. Rik Smits wasn't the best at covering the PNR either, especially early in his career, but he remained the starter and by the time the Pacers began competing in the Playoffs he was more than adequate at it. Also, he posed a huge mismatch for the opposition on the offensive side of the floor as well.

    Why do our coaches continue to cowtow to other team's lineups instead forcing them to guard our team? Carlisle did this a lot his last couple of seasons and O'Brien loves to change the lineups up for the same reason. If it's frustrating to us as the fans, I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to the players - especially when they've been playing well for over 8 games in-a-row and then have just 2 "bad" games.
    Rik was replaced in the starting lineup by Greg Dreiling for long periods of time during his third and fourth year.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

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    No, it just came from being defended by TJ Ford and not Watson. Duh.

    LOL, but it's true.

    Two players the Pacers didn't want back from last season, Jack and Rasho were the players who burned them last night for 30+ points. I do miss Jack at the PG. Why couldn't it have been Ford that left!!

  31. #21
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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    There is a lot of talk in this thread, and others, about all the things that Murphy, Ford, Foster, et al are doing wrong but what I don't see is anyone complaining about the team's supposed best player, Granger, launching 27 shots while blistering the nets at a 40% rate.

    Why?

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    Quote Originally Posted by naptownmenace View Post
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    I was worried about reading this thread but man was that an excellent post, Peck! I even changed my signature in honor of something you wrote.

    There were so many good points regarding the lineup change in general, particularly the message that it sends to Roy. Rik Smits wasn't the best at covering the PNR either, especially early in his career, but he remained the starter and by the time the Pacers began competing in the Playoffs he was more than adequate at it. Also, he posed a huge mismatch for the opposition on the offensive side of the floor as well.

    Why do our coaches continue to cowtow to other team's lineups instead forcing them to guard our team? Carlisle did this a lot his last couple of seasons and O'Brien loves to change the lineups up for the same reason. If it's frustrating to us as the fans, I can only imagine how frustrating it must be to the players - especially when they've been playing well for over 8 games in-a-row and then are yanked after having 2 bad games.

    There is no good reason that Roy should've been reduced to just 12 minutes of play last night. He had zero fouls and was effective on offense. I didn't get to see the entire game, just the fourth quarter but I really don't understand why he was burried on the bench last night.
    And Rik IMO was horrible against the pick and roll his entire career - go back and watch the 4th quarter of game 7 at Chicago from 1998, the Bulls abandoned their triangle offense and ran pick and roll after pick and roll and they were killing the Pacers with it because Rik was horrible - he often served as the picker and allowed MJ a clear path to the basket. Rik was often taken out late in games for this very reason. Teams went at him all tghe time.

    I mentioned this yesterday, but in order to dictate the other teams lineups, or not to cow tow to the matchups the other team is presenting, you need a lot of more talent than what the pacers currently have. Roy just isn't that good of an offensive low post player yet to cause teams to adjust to us - maybe in a year or two.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 11-25-2009 at 03:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    \

    Also, there's Toronto just being darn good on offense and various bad luck scenarios. But, for me, the key subbing problem was Watson for TJ.
    Would you be surprised if I told you that Toronto has the highest rated offense so far in the season before our game?

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    I understand that players play. I understand that O'Brien does not tell them to just go out there and jack up wild outside shots. I understand he wants them to take good open uncontested shots.

    But at what point in time does the coach become responsible for player not understanding what a good shot is? When does it fall on him when they just settle for jump shot after jump shot?

    It would be one thing if he was over on the sidelines yelling to do something different. It would even be another thing if he was taking players out after failing to move the ball or settle for jump shots. But he just stands there, much like when Jamaal did his thing with the Suns a couple of years ago. He just stands there and thinks that because they practice this and he shows them film clips of this that he does not have to do anything other than say "keep doing what your doing" and they will magically transform into the 90's Bulls driving the lanes.

    I hate talking about O'Brien because what is going to happen is what happens every single time. Somebody is going to come on and call him a lousy coach and want him fired right now. This is overstated and wrong.

    Only to be outdone by the people who now feel the need to be the O'Brien defenders who really are not defending O'Brien but they are just going after the first set that are over reacting.

    It will just devolve from there.

    I will say this. Jim is a middle of the road coach. He is not 100% right and he is not 100% wrong. However there is truth in the fact that he employs an unorthodox offensive system. So it does open him up for criticism.

    However for the Raptors game, lousy coaching job from even before the tip off for making Roy afraid of his own shadow. To me you don't hide Roy and tell him "you just can't compete against these guys so better to sit over here and watch". You put him out there and if he fails he fails but he can learn from doing, not from being told he can't.
    Here to me is a problem that I don't know how to answer. Do we hold the coach or the players accountable for what happens on the floor. Point: In the first game of the season, the coach told the players to be careful with their inbounds and outlet passes as the Hawks are well hawks when it comes to those passes- the players fail to listen/execute, and I don't know who to blame here. Do the players have low BBIQ? Are the coaches not stressing things enough? Are the coaches not having an effective punishment/reward system? Have the players tuned out the coach and aren't buying into his message anymore?

    On the one had we have people criticizing Jimmy because he seems to have a short leash for his rookies- but on the other it seems like they aren't being punished enough for failure to follow and execute game plan, or they aren't being worked hard enough in practice (which i find interesting, since we have full practices at nearly full tilt on gameday).

    As for the lineup change- it works and it doesn't sometimes. Avery Johnson did it against the Warriors in that fateful playoff series and it backfired terribly. The Spurs failed to do it against the Mavs in the 2006 and 2009 series and they ended up losing both because they refused to have a lineup change and got killed for it. There is no right way to do it.

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    Default Re: Odd thoughts after being violated by the Raptors...

    Quote Originally Posted by flox View Post
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    Here to me is a problem that I don't know how to answer. Do we hold the coach or the players accountable for what happens on the floor.
    The NBA has always been and will continue to be a players' league. It's the talent on the roster that will determine how far the team gets.

    Really, all you have to do is look at Mike D'Antoni and look no further. He was a genius when coaching Nash, Marion, Amare, et al. in their primes. Well, now that he's coaching Al Harrington, David Lee and Nate Robinson, it's just not quite the same.

    Last night, the Wizards and the 76ers squared off. Both those teams are less than impressive. The 76ers were coached by ex-Wiz and ex-Kings coach Eddie Jordan. The Wiz were coached by ex-Wolves and ex-Pistons coach Flip Saunders.

    As someone pointed out (on another board), you can't possibly believe either of these two guys are making a real difference for these teams right now in comparison to the guys who proceeded them.

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