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Thread: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

  1. #1
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    Default NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    Ford-Rush-Granger-Murphy-Foster

    Where is the athletic players except granger......

    Indiana is shooting way to many 3 point shots... I heard slick talk about this and he and i agree 100% why dont indiana allowJones drive and try to create more? why dont Granger start to drive more.. why do we always shoot 3s now? and also until this team begins to start playing top quality defense this team will struggle greatly in this league.....

    I hope we beat the clips tonight but, if we play like we did against toronto and others i will for one say we lose..

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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    WHY ARE WE YELLING!?

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    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    CROWD NOISE?

    DO I GET A T-SHIRT?
    BillS

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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    Quote Originally Posted by DAVIDLOCKHART40 View Post
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    Ford-Rush-Granger-Murphy-Foster

    Where is the athletic players except granger......
    Rush is pretty athletic, he just doesn't show it on offense. But watch him night after night on D and you will see he has plenty of athleticism.

    Indiana is shooting way to many 3 point shots... I heard slick talk about this and he and i agree 100% why dont indiana allowJones drive and try to create more? why dont Granger start to drive more.. why do we always shoot 3s now?
    It's gotten pretty awful. Why our entire offense isn't built around exploiting the players we have that can force the defense to make decisions is beyond me.

    and also until this team begins to start playing top quality defense this team will struggle greatly in this league.....
    What kills me about this is not only are you right, but we now have enough players to play very good defense. If you need to put the clamps on a team, roll out Watson (of Ford) Rush Jones Granger Jones. You'll get stops with that group. Offense is a challenge for sure with that 5, but at the same time you could at least center it around dribble penetration with clearly defined plays instead of randomness.

    Jim O'Brien is convinced the key to NBA offense is unpredictability, but the truth as I see it is the key to NBA offense is forcing the defense to pick their poison, and putting your players in roles/situations/plays to where they know how to read and react to the choices the defense makes, allowing you to get a great deal of quality looks from near and far.

    Instead, we try to "wing it" too often and if the defense packs it in, we end up jacking up jumper after jumper, and it's maddening and frustrating.

    Dunleavy will help because he knows how to move and space well and of course brings scoring/shooting, but we'd be so much better off giving up this determination to be random and focus on a set offense that depends on what I've described.

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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Jim O'Brien is convinced the key to NBA offense is unpredictability, but the truth as I see it is the key to NBA offense is forcing the defense to pick their poison, and putting your players in roles/situations/plays to where they know how to read and react to the choices the defense makes, allowing you to get a great deal of quality looks from near and far.

    Instead, we try to "wing it" too often and if the defense packs it in, we end up jacking up jumper after jumper, and it's maddening and frustrating.

    Dunleavy will help because he knows how to move and space well and of course brings scoring/shooting, but we'd be so much better off giving up this determination to be random and focus on a set offense that depends on what I've described.
    This.

    Except, I've never heard him talk about unpredictability. Where'd you get that?
    .

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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    This.

    Except, I've never heard him talk about unpredictability. Where'd you get that?
    I'm struggling to recall, but I believe it was during his first season here. Might have been his show, might have been an interview I heard/read, wherever, but I know he talked about it and believes this.

    It might even have been something he wrote for ESPN.com or Pacers.com.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    The idea behind not calling a lot of set plays is that it is more difficult for the opponent to prepare. The passing game which is what the Pacers run more than anything is a read and react offense - similar in that respect to the Triangle offense the lakers run

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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks
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    Why our entire offense isn't built around exploiting the players we have that can force the defense to make decisions is beyond me.
    Who, pray tell, are these players?

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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    The idea behind not calling a lot of set plays is that it is more difficult for the opponent to prepare. The passing game which is what the Pacers run more than anything is a read and react offense - similar in that respect to the Triangle offense the lakers run
    I think those who know more than a little about the triangle know it usually falls flat without top-talents running it.

    In theory, what Jim's running is more difficult to prepare for, but with this roster running it, it's not that hard.

  13. #10
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    I agree with Count55, besides Danny, who do we have that is an offensive player that other team worry about when they play the Pacers? I can't think of anyone. Would be interesting to see an opponents in depth scouting report on the Pacers offense

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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    It's been said, but since you can't outscore oppenents with the offensive talent available, why not go back to the defensive unit that cause low scoring, low opposing shooting percentages.

    Why not go back to.

    TJ
    D Jones
    B Rush
    Danny
    Roy

    with

    Watson
    Solo
    Head
    Tyler

    Why not?

  15. #12
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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    It's been said, but since you can't outscore oppenents with the offensive talent available, why not go back to the defensive unit that cause low scoring, low opposing shooting percentages.

    Why not go back to.

    TJ
    D Jones
    B Rush
    Danny
    Roy

    with

    Watson
    Solo
    Head
    Tyler

    Why not?

    I;m not sure Head's defense is that good.

    My favorite lineup right now is:
    Watson
    D. Jones
    Granger
    Tyler
    Jeff

    I think that is excellent defense and decent offense

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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    Basically, do with these players on offense whatever Larry Brown would do.

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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I;m not sure Head's defense is that good.

    My favorite lineup right now is:
    Watson
    D. Jones
    Granger
    Tyler
    Jeff

    I think that is excellent defense and decent offense

    I like that line-up also because I don't see Troy Murphy in it. Why have a PF/C that can shoot the 3 when everybody else on the team does it also with the exception of Hibbert.
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  19. #15
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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    We have two types of players, offensive and defensive. Let's play the defensive ones.

    Last year, we had two types of players offensive players and bad offensive players. This year there's an option.

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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    It hurts my soul to watch this lineup.

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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    We have two types of players, offensive and defensive. Let's play the defensive ones.

    Last year, we had two types of players offensive players and bad offensive players. This year there's an option.
    We'll get beaten just as badly.

    It'll make some people feel better, because, you know, defense wins championships, so let's lose like champions.

    This team has two types of players: Danny and the rest. Unfortunately, it seems that the difference is getting smaller by the day.

    It is an illusion that we have "defensive" players. The ones given this accreditation around here actually hover between average and slightly above average. (I'm speaking of Brandon Rush and Dahntay Jones, as well as Solomon and Jeff.) This is a slight upgrade over last year, but not enough.

    If we want to replicate the 5-game winning streak, then we need to play bad teams again. Even the one quality victory we had against Boston wasn't won at the defensive end. In fact, the numbers (.494 eFG% and 113 Def Rtg) indicate a relatively poor defensive performance.

    If we look at this roster solely in terms of offensive units and defensive units, then it is doomed to failure. We'd have the choice between playing an average-ish defensive unit that is horrible offensively, or a mediocre offensive unit that is pretty bad defensively.

    If this team wants to make the playoffs, it has to figure out a way to get some balance on the floor. We are simply not good enough at either end to sustain success being one-sided.

    Now, I am all for short-leashes for TJ and Troy, but I don't think for one second that the outcome would have been materially different last night had we gone with the lineup you suggest.

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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    We'll get beaten just as badly.

    It'll make some people feel better, because, you know, defense wins championships, so let's lose like champions.

    This team has two types of players: Danny and the rest. Unfortunately, it seems that the difference is getting smaller by the day.

    It is an illusion that we have "defensive" players. The ones given this accreditation around here actually hover between average and slightly above average. (I'm speaking of Brandon Rush and Dahntay Jones, as well as Solomon and Jeff.) This is a slight upgrade over last year, but not enough.

    If we want to replicate the 5-game winning streak, then we need to play bad teams again. Even the one quality victory we had against Boston wasn't won at the defensive end. In fact, the numbers (.494 eFG% and 113 Def Rtg) indicate a relatively poor defensive performance.

    If we look at this roster solely in terms of offensive units and defensive units, then it is doomed to failure. We'd have the choice between playing an average-ish defensive unit that is horrible offensively, or a mediocre offensive unit that is pretty bad defensively.

    If this team wants to make the playoffs, it has to figure out a way to get some balance on the floor. We are simply not good enough at either end to sustain success being one-sided.

    Now, I am all for short-leashes for TJ and Troy, but I don't think for one second that the outcome would have been materially different last night had we gone with the lineup you suggest.
    Good argument, I'd say if you put the defensive minded unit it out there, it tests the will of the other team. I mean that it's fun to have a lay up line, even if your giving up points, as long as your scoring more. It's not as much fun to have to work hard to even get a good shot, then go and try to stop a team at the other end, when possessions are precious. In an 82 game season, teams would rather not play with that defensive intensity very often, it's too physically hard, but too mentally draining.

    Now, I've made an argument to be a defense first team, but an argument for how it works with the current Pacers.

    I do agree with you that the horses probably aren't there to execute what I'd like to see them do.

    You make a great point, they have average/bad or bad/average players.

    That's not encouraging, no matter the philosophy.

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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I'm struggling to recall, but I believe it was during his first season here. Might have been his show, might have been an interview I heard/read, wherever, but I know he talked about it and believes this.

    It might even have been something he wrote for ESPN.com or Pacers.com.
    I don't know about Jim saying anything but earlier this season Flip Saunders said that our offense was so disorganized that it was organized.

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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Good argument, I'd say if you put the defensive minded unit it out there, it tests the will of the other team. I mean that it's fun to have a lay up line, even if your giving up points, as long as your scoring more. It's not as much fun to have to work hard to even get a good shot, then go and try to stop a team at the other end, when possessions are precious. In an 82 game season, teams would rather not play with that defensive intensity very often, it's too physically hard, but too mentally draining.

    Now, I've made an argument to be a defense first team, but an argument for how it works with the current Pacers.

    I do agree with you that the horses probably aren't there to execute what I'd like to see them do.

    You make a great point, they have average/bad or bad/average players.

    That's not encouraging, no matter the philosophy.
    And...you can't be consistently successful defensively if you're fighting constant offensive futility. It puts too much pressure on the defense, and eventually it breaks.

    Statistically, Charlotte is one of the top defensive teams in the league, and that makes sense given their roster and their coach. However, they stand at 4-10 because they are one of the worst offensive teams in the league. New Jersey is a much more consistent and sound defensive team than we are, but they are the worst offensive team in the league.

    O'Brien talks of the lineup that had success late last year, but right now, I'd argue we don't have any of those players. JJ's in Toronto, but there's no way that anyone could argue that Danny, Brandon, TJ, or Troy are playing at anywhere approaching the level they did last year.

    Dahntay Jones has been a pleasant surprise, including from a leadership perspective, but you have to wonder if his style of leadership might lean more towards confrontational/drill sergeant, where as JJ might have been a more positive influence in the locker room.

    Right now, there are too many players that stop the ball movement. TJ gets a huge amount of blame here, much of it deserved, but Dahntay is really bad about it. The ball moves around the floor, and when it gets to him, it stops way too often. Roy is progressing very nicely, but he's still very, very indecisive in both the high and low posts. Brandon disappears too much, and often looks lost, and Danny is standing too much.

    While he's gotten credit for his defense last night, I though Jeff showed how much he helps the offense in the second half. He's the best and most experienced passer from the high post, he's the best and setting screens on the floor, and he creates extra opportunities with his work on the glass. More important than all of that, he maintains the most consistent level of movement.

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  27. #21
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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    I think we're beginning to overrate our starting lineup. It's not too bad to change it around, but if this one's not successful, I think we should bring Roy back definitly.

  28. #22
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    My bottonline on the lineups is I agree with count55, while I personally want to see certain players more than others, the thing this team needs is not a new lineup of the current players, or a new rotation of the current players - but they need better players and they need players that fit together and in both areas, the Pacers just aren't very good.

  29. #23

    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    My bottonline on the lineups is I agree with count55, while I personally want to see certain players more than others, the thing this team needs is not a new lineup of the current players, or a new rotation of the current players - but they need better players and they need players that fit together and in both areas, the Pacers just aren't very good.

    I don't disagree, but what bothers me is the players Bird has drafted. They don't seem to fit both areas. Maybe in the future they will, but as of now they just don't. Roy is "O" and Rush is more "D". Tyler hasn't played enough for a determination. I won't even mention Williams and White.

    Bird did the best he could with the money he had available this past off season, but like has been stated the Pacers just don't have that much talent. I'm sticking with my 38 game win prediction for the time being.

  30. #24
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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    The only two players that have started every game are Danny Granger and Brandon Rush

    Earl Watson leads the team in assists with 3.1

    Our starting point guard is only averaging 2.7 assists per game.

    Brandon Rush is shooting .364 from the field, .533 from the line and averaging 8.8 points per game. His backup is averaging 17.1 points on .483 field goals and .792 from the line.

    Travis Diener has yet to play a single minute this season

  31. #25
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    Default Re: NEW LINEUP? MY LORD

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    I don't disagree, but what bothers me is the players Bird has drafted. They don't seem to fit both areas. Maybe in the future they will, but as of now they just don't. Roy is "O" and Rush is more "D". Tyler hasn't played enough for a determination. I won't even mention Williams and White.

    Bird did the best he could with the money he had available this past off season, but like has been stated the Pacers just don't have that much talent. I'm sticking with my 38 game win prediction for the time being.
    While I do greatly worry about Rush, I'm not at all uncomfortable with Hibbert and Hansbrough. There is a sizable difference between saying they're not there yet, and saying they're never going to get there.

    The problem is that it's not a very well matched lineup, and that was caused by the Murphleavy trade, and really, it all traces back to the mistaken thought that JO was still a foundation piece as late as 2007.

    I think it's possible to find a combination with this team that will vie for the playoffs, but it's going to take some work. Quite frankly, the biggest step (with this current roster) would be if Danny could somehow consistently return to his 2009 level of performance. I strongly agree with BillS when he says that we should probably sit Danny down until his heel gets right.

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