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Thread: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

  1. #376
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    How Foster's extra million a year becomes the scapegoat here I have no idea.
    This thread gives me a headache - but I do agree with Seth on this.

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  3. #377

    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by bulldog View Post
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    I think of this stuff as the price we have to pay in order to allow a team like Indiana to be competitive. In a world with no salary cap, no luxury cap, no complicated and prohibitive rules, teams like the Indiana Pacers are second class citizens. We would basically be renting Granger until the Knicks put together a 9 year, $140 million contract.

    Not to mention, I actually do find it interesting.

    This summer in European football Real Madrid alone spent nearly 250,000,000 Euros just to release four players from their teams. That sum doesn't even include the amount they paid for their contracts (one of those players receives roughly 280,000 Euros a week). And that comes from a Spanish team a country with app. 20% unemployment rate...

    That's the great thing about the NBA- every team has some chance to win it all.

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  5. #378

    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    I have come to the grips of reality that Jack's offer from Toronto isn't going to be matched. I am a Jack fan, and wanted him 2 years prior to when Bird traded for him. I just feel it shouldn't have had to come down to having had Jack become a FA. There was more than an ample opportunity for Bird to re-sign Jack b4 he came a RFA... more than enough. What bothers me is Bird signed Foster b4 he became a FA, but wouldn't Jack. There is no doubt in my mind the Pacers could have gotten Jack re-signed for 3.5-4 mil if if Bird had. Jack had a nice season, and it shot up his salary price.

    Just think if Bird hadn't signed Granger early, the Pacers might not have been able to re-sign Granger after his Allstar year. What is so concerning is Granger wants Jack back, and has stated so. That says something to me about the value of Jack. Let's face it, as fans, we aren't privy to what goes on in the locker room or at practices. What I see in Jack is the type player Bird wants for the Pacers... a young tough gutty determined quality skilled player with no baggage. Those type players aren't that ez to find, and then to let one slip through your fingers due to poor decision making is a travesty.

    I'm in the camp that you match Toronto's offer, and not worry about the LT by trading Ford, Foster, or Murphy taking on an expiring or a contract or two for less money. Or betting on the arbitrator ruling in the favor of the Pacers against Tinsley saving the Pacers salary thus staying out of future LT Land. I highly doubt the Simons' accountants look at it that way, nor is it going to happen. If it doesn't, then my thanks and gratitude to Jarrett Jack for year he was a Pacer, and what he brought to the Pacers.
    Last edited by Justin Tyme; 07-13-2009 at 09:29 AM.

  6. #379

    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    What is so concerning is Granger wants Jack back, and has stated so. ...................... not worry about the LT by trading Ford, Foster, or Murphy taking on an expiring or a contract or two for less money.
    First, you can't let the inmates run the asylum.

    And in theory, trading one of those guys works, but easier said than done.

    There's a plan working here. We may not understand it all because we're not privvy to all the numbers and other stuff. If Larry is under direct orders from Herb & Mel to stay under the tax - you can't put yourself in a position where the tax comes into play if something else doesn't work out.

  7. #380

    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    There's a plan working here. We may not understand it all because we're not privvy to all the numbers and other stuff.
    Hey, now, don't go gettin' all religious on us.

    What I find most curious is the timing of the Jones signing. Why do so before finding out whether we sign Jack? Was Larry worried that "Inferno" was soon to be scooped up by someone else? Does the timing accurately indicate the superseding importance to the team of DJ over JJ? If not, then it seems that TPTB are basically saying, "We don't value Jack beyond x amount [say, $4 mil]," which in turns clearly indicates that they either expect Ford to reclaim the starting role or acquire a new starting PG in the not-too-distant future. Hmmm.

  8. #381
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by DrFife View Post
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    Hey, now, don't go gettin' all religious on us.

    What I find most curious is the timing of the Jones signing. Why do so before finding out whether we sign Jack? Was Larry worried that "Inferno" was soon to be scooped up by someone else? Does the timing accurately indicate the superseding importance to the team of DJ over JJ? If not, then it seems that TPTB are basically saying, "We don't value Jack beyond x amount [say, $4 mil]," which in turns clearly indicates that they either expect Ford to reclaim the starting role or acquire a new starting PG in the not-too-distant future. Hmmm.
    I remember Obie saying at seasons end how TJ would basically be much improved in his system after being in it for a year. Hearing him talk about it at the time was confusing because my impression was he was talking in terms of TJ starting next year, so it seemed out of place. Now it seems to make sense.

    Numbers wise, TJ had a great year, second leading scorer (not counting 18 games for Dun), leader in assists, played an acceptable number of games, was crunch time option. His defense was not good, but he stepped it up at the end of the year imo. He's not a make everyone around you better true point guard, but frankly neither is Jack.

    My issues with TJ are the spat with Jack and that he's not a pass first point guard, he isn't a true point guard, he can dominate the ball, and he waivers defensively. Now that sounds like alot, but he's capable of cleaning up most of those things (defense and ball domination) and he's super valuable as a closer.

    If I could wish one thing on TJ this next year is that he get smarter and sacrifice for the greater good of the team. Part of me hopes that a light bulb goes on, the other part knows it's not likely.

    Another words he has every tool to be a starting caliber point guard and a force, he needs to mentally put it together. He's still relatively young and honestly it's still possible.

    If not, he's an inconsistent player who some games will win and some games he'll disappear. If that happens they'll miss Jack's warm and fuzzy Jeff Foster like consistently.

    If TJ owns the PG position and gives himself for the greater good, I think we will be wondering why they ever even considered keeping Jack.

    If I was Obie I call TJ right now and say I want you to try to average 10 assists and under 2 turnovers a game next year, period. thats it.
    Last edited by Speed; 07-13-2009 at 11:04 AM.

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  10. #382

    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by DrFife View Post
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    Hey, now, don't go gettin' all religious on us. ............. acquire a new starting PG in the not-too-distant future. Hmmm.
    Amen brotha .............. I don't think we've seen the last of the roster changes going into this season. It's the plan man .........

  11. #383
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Does anyone think that Keyon Dooling would make a good starting PG for us?
    Last edited by Trophy; 07-13-2009 at 11:02 AM.

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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    No.

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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by TroyMurphy3 View Post
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    Does anyone think that Keyon Dooling would make a goos starting PG for us?
    Uh, no.

    Not even a good one.

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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    A couple things I've been thinking about in relation to all this.

    1. TJ has a team-first game and a me-first attitude. Jack has a me-first game and a team-first attitude.

    2. Jarrett Jack is a better basketball player than Charlie Villanueva.

    Oh, and Keyon Dooling would make a decent backup for TJ, but he's not a good starting PG for anyone.
    "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

    - Salman Rushdie

  15. #387
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by mellifluous View Post
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    A couple things I've been thinking about in relation to all this.

    1. TJ has a team-first game and a me-first attitude. Jack has a me-first game and a team-first attitude.
    Huh?

    Quote Originally Posted by melli
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    2. Jarrett Jack is a better basketball player than Charlie Villanueva.
    Yup

    Quote Originally Posted by melli
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    Oh, and Keyon Dooling would make a decent backup for TJ, but he's not a good starting PG for anyone.
    Holy ****, he's owed $7.3mm over the next two years.

    What I've been thinking about is...

    The #1 isn't great for longevity with the Pacers.

    Roger Brown 1975-1975
    Bo Lamar 1976-1976
    Freddie Lewis 1977-1977
    Ron Behagen 1978-1978
    Stephen Jackson 2005-2007
    Ike Diogu 2007-2008
    Jarrett Jack 2009-2009


    (Rajah and Freddie using it on their farewell tours with the team.)

  16. #388
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by mellifluous View Post
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    1. TJ has a team-first game and a me-first attitude. Jack has a me-first game and a team-first attitude.
    Please explain - I am curious. I understand what you are saying with the me-first attitude and team first attitude, but it is the first part that I don't understand - Team-first game vs Me-first game - please explain

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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    I think he's saying Jack shoots/ "calls his own number" too much. If that's the case I totally disagree - that's my #1 complaint with Ford.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
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    And life itself, rushing over me
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I think he's saying Jack shoots/ "calls his own number" too much. If that's the case I totally disagree - that's my #1 complaint with Ford.
    Thats not what I think he is trying to get across. He is saying Jacks game is better suited for a sg not a pg. He is better suited as a scoring pg which I agree with. I would say the same thing for Ford though.

    The attitude thing is hard to judge. Certianly Ford hates being the second fiddle but I don't get the impression that he's only out to get his.

    I think he really believes that by taken advantage of scoring opportunities he is helping the team. The problem lies in the fact that he over does it, IMO.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 07-13-2009 at 11:58 AM.

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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    OK, here goes.

    I think that TJ Ford's natural abilities as a basketball player lend themselves to him being able to create shots for other players more easily than he can create/finish shots on his own. However, he's more interested in getting his own shot.

    Jack seems better at creating/finishing his own shot than he does at creating shots for others. However, it seems that he strives to play within O'Brien's team concepts both offensively and defensively.
    "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

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  21. #392

    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    I think everyone needs to stop and breathe.

    Bird/Morway have made it clear they have not intensions of going over the luxury tax. So, if Torando has out-bidded them w/their offer to Jack, it's goodbye, Jarrett. I'm sure they knew it was unlikely he'd return. Signing Dahntay Jones was their insurance policy in case they were outbid.

    I think we've actually improved our backcourt by signing Jones on top of hearing Diener exercised his option to return. I thought it was somewhat strange that JOB didn't go w/TJ and Diener at the Point. Both know how to push the tempo. The only problem with both is they're defense leaves alot to be desired, but that's what Jones is for - to fill that defensive void at the Point. It will be a shame to lose Jack because I thought our PG-trio was working quite well together. But when you really look at things, losing Jack isn't all that Earth shattering considering Dahntay Jones brings more of a defensive mindset to his game which I believe was the primary reason Jack was brought in.

    So, worry not, Pacers fans. I think the team has been left in good hands...perhaps even better from a defensive standpoint.

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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by NuffSaid View Post
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    I think everyone needs to stop and breathe.

    Bird/Morway have made it clear they have not intensions of going over the luxury tax. So, if Torando has out-bidded them w/their offer to Jack, it's goodbye, Jarrett. I'm sure they knew it was unlikely he'd return. Signing Dahntay Jones was their insurance policy in case they were outbid.

    I think we've actually improved our backcourt by signing Jones on top of hearing Diener exercised his option to return. I thought it was somewhat strange that JOB didn't go w/TJ and Diener at the Point. Both know how to push the tempo. The only problem with both is they're defense leaves alot to be desired, but that's what Jones is for - to fill that defensive void at the Point. It will be a shame to lose Jack because I thought our PG-trio was working quite well together. But when you really look at things, losing Jack isn't all that Earth shattering considering Dahntay Jones brings more of a defensive mindset to his game which I believe was the primary reason Jack was brought in.

    So, worry not, Pacers fans. I think the team has been left in good hands...perhaps even better from a defensive standpoint.
    I think that AJ was drafted as insurance for Jack leaving....whereas Jones was brought in to fill the role that Marquis, Graham and Dunleavy ( due to his injury/recovery ) vacated. Defensively, Jones will help out.....but assuming that we sign AJ....I'm thinking that we'll still sign some Vet PG to help fill out our PG needs.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  23. #394
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    I think that AJ was drafted as insurance for Jack leaving....whereas Jones was brought in to fill the role that Marquis, Graham and Dunleavy ( due to his injury/recovery ) vacated. Defensively, Jones will help out.....but assuming that we sign AJ....I'm thinking that we'll still sign some Vet PG to help fill out our PG needs.
    Hence, the Anthony Carter phone call? Someome mentioned Flip Murray, who I'm not a big fan of, but he'd fill multiple needs and was a nice scorer in ATL last year.

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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by mellifluous View Post
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    OK, here goes.

    I think that TJ Ford's natural abilities as a basketball player lend themselves to him being able to create shots for other players more easily than he can create/finish shots on his own. However, he's more interested in getting his own shot.

    Jack seems better at creating/finishing his own shot than he does at creating shots for others. However, it seems that he strives to play within O'Brien's team concepts both offensively and defensively.
    I disagree - at Ford's size, he has poor court vision, can't find/ reach the passing lanes, and isn't great at feeding the post (has to lob the ball, easily deflected.)

    All he has is quickness. What we saw is what we get. He can penetrate but can't finish, and can't find passing lanes in a half court set (either penetrating or along the perimeter.) He can play in the open court but not much else.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  25. #396
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    I spoke with Gnome yesterday and told him my opinion on all this is that it's as simple as FACE VALUE.

    1) They would like to keep Jack, and prefer him as a starting PG with TJ off the bench for scoring

    2) TJ is an expensive 6th man and might not want to keep that role, which is how he got to Indy in the first place

    3) The Pacers looked to trade TJ leading into the draft but found no deals that made sense for them, and given their situation they can only afford to make boring, sensible choices

    4) The realize that Jack is likely to get priced out of their range so they draft Price, perhaps not giving up on a TJ trade till during the draft even


    It's neither a master plan or some ultimate failing. The multi-man job of running the team left them with a lot of things to adjust under Bird's solo tenure. I don't think it means that they wanted to rent Jack, but it does mean they can't afford luxuries right now.

    I don't think they "wanted" to trade TJ, I think they probably just wanted to adjust that salary usage to another position, maybe reduce it too, and wanted to avoid a battle over player's roles.


    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth" - Mike Tyson

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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Hence, the Anthony Carter phone call? Someome mentioned Flip Murray, who I'm not a big fan of, but he'd fill multiple needs and was a nice scorer in ATL last year.
    Just like the apparent interest in Kleiza....IMHO, I think that contacting Anthony Carter was more of a "smokescreen" to the Nuggets to shield who the Pacers were reallly interested in.......Inferno.

    As for Flip.....I'd pass on him. He's as dominant of a ball-handler as Ford is. Once it's Flip's hands.....it's pretty much a sure bet that he'll shoot the ball.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  27. #398
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I disagree - at Ford's size, he has poor court vision, can't find/ reach the passing lanes, and isn't great at feeding the post (has to lob the ball, easily deflected.)

    All he has is quickness. What we saw is what we get. He can penetrate but can't finish, and can't find passing lanes in a half court set (either penetrating or along the perimeter.) He can play in the open court but not much else.
    Unfortunately I agree, though I get Melli's point and the idea of it. TJ's strength is driving for pull up jumpers and when he's hot he can rack up some points for you. Thus my Jason Terry comparison and why I think he works well as the 6th man. But as a set-up plays passing PG I just don't see the fundamentals of that game at all, not just an issue of willingness.

    Losing Jack will hurt, but I think some people had their expectations up a bit too high this year. My target is next June, that's when I'll shift into "okay, now let's get this going again". This year like the last 2 is just preparation and getting things in order for the real changes to come.

    Slow and steady to me seems to be a good plan, and as much as I liked what Jack became and would welcome him back, he's not a critical piece of the future build.

    As for Flip.....I'd pass on him. He's as dominant of a ball-handler as Ford is. Once it's Flip's hands.....it's pretty much a sure bet that he'll shoot the ball.
    Completely agree, we already have TJ here, we don't need 2 of them.

    The team has their "play runner" with Price. Use him to feed Roy and work the two man game. They were brilliant together in the summer. I think Rush will also work well with them based on the teamwork of he, Chalmers and Arthur at KS.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 07-13-2009 at 01:01 PM.

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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I disagree - at Ford's size, he has poor court vision, can't find/ reach the passing lanes, and isn't great at feeding the post (has to lob the ball, easily deflected.)

    All he has is quickness. What we saw is what we get. He can penetrate but can't finish, and can't find passing lanes in a half court set (either penetrating or along the perimeter.) He can play in the open court but not much else.
    Yes, he could never do this in the past, especially not in Toronto /green

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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    I spoke with Gnome yesterday and told him my opinion on all this is that it's as simple as FACE VALUE.

    1) They would like to keep Jack, and prefer him as a starting PG with TJ off the bench for scoring

    2) TJ is an expensive 6th man and might not want to keep that role, which is how he got to Indy in the first place

    3) The Pacers looked to trade TJ leading into the draft but found no deals that made sense for them, and given their situation they can only afford to make boring, sensible choices

    4) The realize that Jack is likely to get priced out of their range so they draft Price, perhaps not giving up on a TJ trade till during the draft even


    It's neither a master plan or some ultimate failing. The multi-man job of running the team left them with a lot of things to adjust under Bird's solo tenure. I don't think it means that they wanted to rent Jack, but it does mean they can't afford luxuries right now.

    I don't think they "wanted" to trade TJ, I think they probably just wanted to adjust that salary usage to another position, maybe reduce it too, and wanted to avoid a battle over player's roles.

    "Everyone has a plan till they get punched in the mouth" - Mike Tyson
    I couldn't have said it better . What you detailed is EXACTLY what I think that TPTB were planning to do once they shifted Jack to the Starting PG spot and the season ended........but S*** happens and ( unfortunately ) it looks like we're not going to pull out a winning hand when we see the "River card" when it comes to Jack.

    Although I am all for matching Jack's offer and then do our best to move either Ford or Foster for a straight Salary dump anytime before the 2009-2010 Trade deadline.....I wouldn't be surprised if we took the "safe route" ( unfortunately ) and simply not match the Raptor's offer and simply "stand pat" for the next 2 seasons.

    Unfortunately if we end up "standing pat", as Hicks suggested in his "therapy session post", welcome to the "Mediocrity in the land of the Pacers" for the next 2 seasons....population "us". I may hate "standing pat", but I understand why TPTB would choose to do so.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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  5. Very good article about Pacers from USA Today
    By Unclebuck in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02-03-2004, 11:53 AM

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