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Thread: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

  1. #351
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    The first thing is you all are putting WAY too much stock into what Hoopshype states. Hoopshype does not and I repeat does NOT know the exact numbers from the contracts that we have signed. They take guesses based on how much the reported amount is. A great example was Austin's contract a few years back. He actually made I believe it was a million or more less that what everyone was thinking because of the way his contract was. The Pacers DO NOT tell ANYONE how the contract is written up they just say it was for x amount of dollars and for x amount of years. So People need to take a step back and not take Hoopshype as the end all be all. If Bird says we have about 8 million to spend without going into the LT then that is how much we have. I love how so many people try to play the numbers game instead of actually listening to someone that actually knows how much every player is making this year. I mean too many people are trying to act like they know the exact cap numbers but they don't. Please don't think I am calling anyone out I just am tired of people trying to act like they know more than our GM.

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  3. #352

    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by Placebo View Post
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    2010 - 2011

    Murphy 11,968,255
    Granger 11,323,967
    Dunleavy 10,561,984
    Ford 8,500,000
    Tinsley 7,500,000 (Could be few k less due to arbitration)
    Foster 6,655,000
    Rush 2,069,040
    Hibbert 1,685,280
    Hansbrough 1,665,500
    Jones 2,651,785
    1st Rounder 1,549,000
    McRoberts ~1,200,000 (guesstimate)
    Price ~500,000 (guesstimate)
    =
    67,821,000

    That's WITHOUT Jack.
    13 players under contract.

    I believe you are $300,000-400,000 too much for McBob. A good many 2nd year 2nd rounders made $711, 000 last season.

  4. #353
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    I believe you are $300,000-400,000 too much for McBob. A good many 2nd year 2nd rounders made $711, 000 last season.
    Yeah thanks for pointing out, I'm sure there are tricky parts of some contracts as well. I use this number only as a reference.

  5. #354
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    Default Re: oh oh- Raptors close to signing Jarrett to offer sheet

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood View Post
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    I guess so... but over the 6.35 per year we gave him, really? For Jeff Foster? What team w/ cap space would have shelled out nearly seven mil a year for Jeff?
    MLE with max raises would be close to that.
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFreak31 View Post
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    The first thing is you all are putting WAY too much stock into what Hoopshype states. Hoopshype does not and I repeat does NOT know the exact numbers from the contracts that we have signed. They take guesses based on how much the reported amount is. A great example was Austin's contract a few years back. He actually made I believe it was a million or more less that what everyone was thinking because of the way his contract was. The Pacers DO NOT tell ANYONE how the contract is written up they just say it was for x amount of dollars and for x amount of years. So People need to take a step back and not take Hoopshype as the end all be all. If Bird says we have about 8 million to spend without going into the LT then that is how much we have. I love how so many people try to play the numbers game instead of actually listening to someone that actually knows how much every player is making this year. I mean too many people are trying to act like they know the exact cap numbers but they don't. Please don't think I am calling anyone out I just am tired of people trying to act like they know more than our GM.
    I don't think anyone here is pretending to know more than our GM does about the salary situation. I think we're just trying to find the best guess available.

    Larry said we had about $8 million available. I think I remember that same number you're saying.

    Let's compare that to said HH numbers.

    Assuming he was referring to the Luxuary Tax, that would suggest we had a team salary of about $61.9 million before signing Dahntay Jones.

    Going by the HH numbers, if you subtract Dahntay Jones (I already have his added in, but they don't) that would leave the Pacers at about $59,645,291 or $59.6 million. That would be about $10 million in LT space.

    That's a discrepancy of about $2.3 million.

    So what to make of it? I see two possibilities:

    1) The numbers on HH are simply off a bit (most likely).

    or

    2) The luxury tax ended up being higher than Bird thought (Assuming he said that before the LT was officially announced by the NBA. A possibility, but less likely than 1.)

    Either way, not a huge difference. However, it is a significant difference.

  7. #356
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Well, the sites, particularly hoopshype (I tend to use Shamsports), have had errors, but they have been largely accurate, and have been proven so over the years. The discussions that have been had on this topic have been on point, and none of the numbers have been misleading.

    Second, at no point in time have I, or anyone else, pretended to know more than Bird. I, personally, have expressed frustration when writers like Kravitz, Wells, or even Brunner have made comments that were specifically wrong, and proven so later (such as Wells citing the wrong tax number). However, whenever Bird made comments that conflicted with info that I had, I would adjust my information...(though that has been rare.)

    There are two places where the $8mm figure comes up. It was mentioned in a Mike Wells article earlier this summer:

    They have about $8 million to spend, and their priorities are to re-sign restricted free agent Jarrett Jack and stay below the luxury tax, expected to kick in at about $68 million next season.
    This was clearly a thumbnail, and the tax threshold was later announced (by the NBA) to be just shy of $70mm.

    The second was a direct quote attributed to Bird in a Brunner article:

    "We've got $8 million and, the way I look at it, three holes to fill," said team President Larry Bird. "I think we're going to have the opportunity to pick up a pretty good player for a lot less money than he would've gotten if the economy was a lot better.
    However, that was not meant to describe the open space under the tax, it was meant to speak of the money available to sign FA's using their MLE and LLE, which were estimated at $5.6mm and $1.9mm each...(later to be $5.9mm and $1.9mm).

    With the opening of the free agent market today, the Pacers will be able to take an active stance thanks to two salary cap exceptions, roughly $8 million available and a payroll that offers room for modest expansion.
    Is there a margin of error in these numbers? Yes. Is it material? No, probably not. There has been no intent to mislead, and the numbers that are used here do more good than harm.

    No one here has perfect inside information, nor do we expect those who do (ie, Bird) to be 100% forthcoming with their financial information. In the absence of perfect information, we do with the best we can get...which, in this case, tends to be solid.
    Last edited by count55; 07-12-2009 at 09:12 PM.

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  9. #357
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I'm also using Hoopshype. It currently lists the 2010/11 salary at $58,157,039.

    However, that not only doesn't include the second year of Dahntay Jones' deal, but it also doesn't figure in the team options that we'll certainly be taking on Roy Hibbert and Brandon Rush. It lists the worth of their options on the table, but it doesn't actually figure them into the total listed at the bottom.

    When you add in Hibbert and Rush, you add approximately $3.7 million onto that total. That brings it to about $61.9 million total.

    Then you add Jones, which is another (about) $2.6 million, and you're suddenly at about $64.5 million.

    Then you have to account for our next rookie from the 2010 draft, which should be about $1.5 million, leaving us at about $66.0 million.

    Without Jarrett Jack being in the picture. Or McRoberts. Or AJ Price.

    We are paying the LT next year. One way, or another.
    Maybe, but Im not so sure. I cant help but think with all the financial problems the Pacers have rumored to have, that they are not just going to go forward assuming theyre going to pay the luxury tax for the 2010-11 season.

    In fact, I believe quite the contrary. I believe the marching orders are to absolutely keep the team below the LT threshhold. And with the recent publicized projections as far as the cap goes for 2010-11 season, I tend to believe that is why they are probably reassessing how much they will actually spend this year and the impact it will have on the following season and the LT implications. The difficult part is there are going to be lots of teams looking to shed salary in the season after next, which means its probably not prudent to just assume you will just cut a bunch of salary as the possibilities of doing so will likely be limited.

    The key is all the money being spent on pgs. You have TJ, you have Tinsley and if you match the Jack deal-then you have his money as well. TJ and Tins are not going to be easy to get rid of, at all. Ford is generally considered to be overpaid and has baggage. And of course we all know the baggage Tinsley has. Plus, since getting rid of Tinsley is obviously an immediate concern-one wonders about the likelihood of being able to do so, the cost of doing so, and the likelihood of being able to eliminate his salary from 2011 in the process.

    I really believe they feel if they match Jacks deal, they make it almost impossible to stay below the tax in 2010-11. And I believe they feel if they dont match, then they feel like they can maneuver below the LT by the time the trade deadline comes around in Feb. 2011.

    I guess we will see.

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  11. #358
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I don't think anyone here is pretending to know more than our GM does about the salary situation. I think we're just trying to find the best guess available.

    Larry said we had about $8 million available. I think I remember that same number you're saying.

    Let's compare that to said HH numbers.

    Assuming he was referring to the Luxuary Tax, that would suggest we had a team salary of about $61.9 million before signing Dahntay Jones.

    Going by the HH numbers, if you subtract Dahntay Jones (I already have his added in, but they don't) that would leave the Pacers at about $59,645,291 or $59.6 million. That would be about $10 million in LT space.

    That's a discrepancy of about $2.3 million.

    So what to make of it? I see two possibilities:

    1) The numbers on HH are simply off a bit (most likely).

    or

    2) The luxury tax ended up being higher than Bird thought (Assuming he said that before the LT was officially announced by the NBA. A possibility, but less likely than 1.)

    Either way, not a huge difference. However, it is a significant difference.
    I agree but to me it seems a bit obsessive to try to find all of this out. I mean really why even try? I say this because none of us know for sure. We can guess but thats about it and in the end Bird will spend what he can to help the team. I mean does it matter to us how much we have to spend? Bird will make the correct decision with what money we do have left.

  12. #359
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    David Aldrige on NBA TV didnt say a definite yes or no if we would match, he actually didnt understand why toronto signed him since they have two backup pg's...so we will see....

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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFreak31 View Post
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    I agree but to me it seems a bit obsessive to try to find all of this out. I mean really why even try? I say this because none of us know for sure. We can guess but thats about it and in the end Bird will spend what he can to help the team. I mean does it matter to us how much we have to spend? Bird will make the correct decision with what money we do have left.
    I guess my answer is:

    1) Why not?

    2) Our guesses are close enough to allow us to reasonably speculate on upcoming moves. I think as die hard fans who admittedly obsess over the Pacers relative to Joe Sixpack, this is not that strange of a thing to be doing.

  14. #361
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by B00sh View Post
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    David Aldrige on NBA TV didnt say a definite yes or no if we would match, he actually didnt understand why toronto signed him since they have two backup pg's...so we will see....
    It's cuz the Raptors need some depth at the SG spot. Jack would probably be used as their Starting SG or 1st Guard off the bench.
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    I'll go out on a limb and say that the Pacers will match JJ's offer and keep working to trade TJ, Diener, or Tinsley to get a little more breathing room below the LT threshold.

    This deal is about what I expected Jack to make and is much less than a lot of starting PGs around the league. Mo Williams, Beno Udrih, and Marko Jaric immediately come to mind. Jack is as good if not better than those guys.

    He's a good player and a good fit with the team and it's very possible that he has a breakout year, as many PGs do in their 3rd season. I'm all for matching the offer.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    would it be possible to make some sort of sign and trade with the Raps to lessen the impact of jack going?
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by Haggard View Post
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    would it be possible to make some sort of sign and trade with the Raps to lessen the impact of jack going?
    No, he's already signed the contract. That's the deal he will play under be it for us or the raptors.

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  19. #365
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerFreak31 View Post
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    I agree but to me it seems a bit obsessive to try to find all of this out. I mean really why even try? I say this because none of us know for sure. We can guess but thats about it and in the end Bird will spend what he can to help the team. I mean does it matter to us how much we have to spend? Bird will make the correct decision with what money we do have left.
    Why even try? Different strokes for different folks.

    Yes we are guessing a lot of the time, but it's almost always an educated guess because some figures are almost always released. Just like Jacks offer for 4 years, and 20 million. As for rookie contracts they are known to the penny.

    Myself I like to know the contract figures so I can see what is and isn't possible.

    Why it's good to have such figures is we can put a stop to a lot of rumors that hit the net because we know immediately the trade is not possible. There's been basketball writers that have pretended they were in the know and published made up stuff. But they've made a mistake and been caught by number crunching fans.

    As for it being a bit obsessive, well most of us that frequent this site can be termed hard core fans and we like to talk about anything Pacer related.

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  21. #366

    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    I do not think the team should sign him. It is too big and too long of an investment right now. This team doesn't need a long term investment for more than 15 million unless if they are Granger-like. I'm looking forward to the 2010-11 season and signing Jack for a longterm deal can change what could go down that year.

  22. #367
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    This is the part of the NBA that I absolutely hate. Nothing is worse, to me anyway, than everybody discussing the financial merits of a player and not actually talking about the players on court performance.

    (Note that is not happening in this discussion btw, it's just a general thing I pretty much hate)

    I hate the fact that because of the Simons financial situation that I even have to care about this. Walsh really left this team in a financial mess and then it was compounded with all of the issues and then multiplied again with the global economic crisis.

    It depresses me to the point of almost losing enjoyment knowing that for the next two years we are not going to be able to make any real significant changes to improve the roster. It really really really depresses me that there is a very good possibility that when the Pacers finally may be out of their financial woes that the entire league may be in a lockout.

    That is three years of our lives pretty much just spinning our wheels.

    Now if you really want something depressing to think about. When we are out of our economic woes there is no guarantee that we will improve. We will be able to use Murphy and Dunleavy as expiring contracts so maybe that will net us something, but no guarantees.

    Then on top of all of that let's for the sake of this thread say that there is a season lost to lock out. Do you realize that when we come back Danny Granger will be months away from 30. How many years beyond 30 do we expect him to have a high impact. Remember Reggie Miller is the anomoly, not the rule.

    I don't know why I have posted this really, I guess just reading through all of this made me want to jump off of a building so I needed to vent or be talked off of the ledge or something.

  23. #368

    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    This is the part of the NBA that I absolutely hate. Nothing is worse, to me anyway, than everybody discussing the financial merits of a player and not actually talking about the players on court performance.

    (Note that is not happening in this discussion btw, it's just a general thing I pretty much hate)

    I hate the fact that because of the Simons financial situation that I even have to care about this. Walsh really left this team in a financial mess and then it was compounded with all of the issues and then multiplied again with the global economic crisis.

    It depresses me to the point of almost losing enjoyment knowing that for the next two years we are not going to be able to make any real significant changes to improve the roster. It really really really depresses me that there is a very good possibility that when the Pacers finally may be out of their financial woes that the entire league may be in a lockout.

    That is three years of our lives pretty much just spinning our wheels.

    Now if you really want something depressing to think about. When we are out of our economic woes there is no guarantee that we will improve. We will be able to use Murphy and Dunleavy as expiring contracts so maybe that will net us something, but no guarantees.

    Then on top of all of that let's for the sake of this thread say that there is a season lost to lock out. Do you realize that when we come back Danny Granger will be months away from 30. How many years beyond 30 do we expect him to have a high impact. Remember Reggie Miller is the anomoly, not the rule.

    I don't know why I have posted this really, I guess just reading through all of this made me want to jump off of a building so I needed to vent or be talked off of the ledge or something.
    Take a deep breath. It'll be ok. You don't know that we won't improve. Sure, it's possible we may not make any trades that are significant, but we can still improve from within. Roy, Brandon, and Tyler will hopefully get better. There's enough possible improvement there that could make us a much better team.

    And you never know, we may be able to trade and get rid of the bad contracts. Lets not worry about lockouts; they're too far away. Let Bird/Morway deal with that.

    It will all work itself out. And if you're still depressed, go watch Hoosiers. It'll make you feel better.
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  25. #369
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    I don't think there will be a lockout - the overall impact that the prolonged negotiations brought about to the league as a whole in the 99/00 season should serve as a lesson to the owners and the players.

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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Sorry if this has been posted.

    http://www.probasketballnews.com/story/?storyid=639

    JACK OFFER UNLIKELY TO BE MATCHED

    Indiana officials on Saturday night were waiting to formally get the offer sheet Pacers restricted free-agent guard Jarrett Jack signed with Toronto. But they were preparing for the likelihood of not matching an offer reportedly worth $20 million over four years.

    "If it's more than $4 million (average per season), I would think we wouldn't match it," said a Pacers source who was speaking when the source knew the deal was for four years but didn't yet know the total amount.

    CBSSports.com first reported Jack's offer sheet, but did not report how much it is worth. ESPN.com later reported it worth $20 million.

    If the Pacers don't match during the allotted seven days, the Raptors likely would get a backup behind starting point guard Jose Calderon after Anthony Parker bolted to Cleveland as a free agent.

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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    I hope AJ Price can fill the void.

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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    I think they are okay without Jack, here is why.

    I think D Jones can guard some of bigger point guards that Jack used to have to guard. I think it's trouble some to think that you have two physically weak defensive point guards in Deiner and TJ, but I think it kinda depends on if AJ can get SOME minutes given match ups and hold his own.

    Let's face it in Obies offense you really don't need a traditional point guard, at least in the half court, so I think TJ and Deiner excel at pushing the ball, maybe not finishing by dropping a nice pass, but at least they will press the matter with early offense.

    Also I think BRush is ready to own the 2 guard spot so you won't need to have a Jack type playing there anyway.

    I think if you look at TJ, his numbers were excellent last year. He's a guy that the other teams coach doesn't have an answer for sometimes, especially at the end of game. TJ just has to blend better, imo, and pick his spots. I don't think he's a natural leader like Jack, I think he's in more of the JO mold when it comes to that sadly.

    I think you'll miss Jack in the lockeroom and enormously as a leader.

    However, I think you may have some guys willing to step up in this. I actually think Roy can help here and Danny and Mike Dunleavy when he gets healthy.

    I guess you'd love to get a Byron Scott or the like to fill that void as your 14 or 15th guys, but we'll see.

    Otherwise, I think on the court you are okay to not match this contract.

    Lastly, the only thing I'm not sure what the JJ/TJ fight was about, so I wonder if there is much more going on there that could affect this school of thought.

  30. #373
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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    This is the part of the NBA that I absolutely hate. Nothing is worse, to me anyway, than everybody discussing the financial merits of a player and not actually talking about the players on court performance.
    I think of this stuff as the price we have to pay in order to allow a team like Indiana to be competitive. In a world with no salary cap, no luxury cap, no complicated and prohibitive rules, teams like the Indiana Pacers are second class citizens. We would basically be renting Granger until the Knicks put together a 9 year, $140 million contract.

    Not to mention, I actually do find it interesting.

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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    I guess you'd love to get a Byron Scott or the like to fill that void as your 14 or 15th guys, but we'll see.
    Agree with your post with this exception ........... Byron was far from the 14th or 15th guy on that team.

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    Default Re: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    Agree with your post with this exception ........... Byron was far from the 14th or 15th guy on that team.

    Good point, I don't necessarily mean 14 or 15th on the roster, I mean they have 13 guys they'll have under contract minus Jack, but counting Tinsley, so there are 2 spots left. I wish one could go to Robert Horry, not Robert, but you know what I mean.

    I wonder if one of the last two will go to NBDLer Trey Johson or Jackson, I can't remember his name, from summer league. He played an inordinate amount of minutes in those 5 games compared to others, so I think they hope to get a really cheap wing player in him. Total speculation on my part, though. That would leave the one spot I'd love to get a vet at.

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