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Thread: 2nd update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 years, $20mm (see page 9); Pacers have 7 days to match

  1. #176

    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    No, I don't think we would match the full MLE under any circumstances.
    Why? hoophype has the payroll at 57M without Jack and Jones.

  2. #177
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    Why? hoophype has the payroll at 57M without Jack and Jones.
    I think the decision comes down to, for them, what they think Jack is worth paying regardless of what the team salary looks like in the immediate future.

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  4. #178
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    Default Re: oh oh- Raptors close to signing Jarrett to offer sheet

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Why are you equating $25/4 to the third best player on a team? Where is this rule and I haven't read?



    And how are you getting $7 million a year from $25/4? If he got paid the same every year it'd be $6,250,000. Much closer to 6 than 7.



    I think it's a different rule book when you're talking about a guy who's either a PG or a big man, and said PG or big man can play an important leadership/attitude role on your team.

    It'd be different if we were talking about a swingman or a swingman without the leadership angle.




    So which is it? What you said first, or what you're saying now about the luxury tax?

    I guess if it really focuses on the latter, then tell me how this deal puts us in eternal LT hell? Does the rest of the roster get cemented if we agree to this deal? Does Jack become untradable if we so choose down the road? I don't think the answer to either of those is yes.




    True, and that's the end of that contract. A good example to make because on paper he's a somewhat better PG when looking at AST and TO. I don't follow Blake so I can't really comment on his game very much.

    Now tell me this: How much do you think he'd be worth if he were a FA this summer instead of next year?



    Artest has several issues that lower his price tag, including his history, and he took a discount on top of all of that to sign with the reigning champs. A skewed comparison at least two different ways.



    I guess this one depends on what you think of Ariza. I think that's about what he's worth. At best. From what I've seen of him. If he can produce big time without being behind Kobe and Co. then good on him and the Rockets.



    Kidd's getting $8m per year and he's old. Bibby got less than I think he could have gotten at $6m per year. That was a bargain for Atlanta.



    I think we agree he's better than Jack and would be settling if he got the MLE.



    Clearly Miller is better.



    Again, a very old player at the end of his career. And not a PG or a big man.



    I agree we've had some very bad contracts on our team. But I also think this offer for Jack, while overpaying him, doesn't come close to those bad deals.

    I guess on a scale from 1 to 10, 1 being highway robbery, 10 being god awful, horrible, who would ever do that, just terrible contract, I'd put paying Jack $25/4y at no worse than a 6.5. Probably a 6.

    So I'm not trying to argue that it's a deal or even fair price. I just don't think it's anywhere approaching outrageous.
    For the record, the 7 Million number was your number in your post. Thats where it came from. The point was you cant really expect to have your 6 man making 7million and not have some problems, payroll wise.

    Is it outrageous? I dont think myself or Count or others are saying that. But given all circumstances-which you seem to want to somewhat disregard in the discussion(and you simply cant do that as its the basis for the whole discussion)-we simply cannot afford to even overpay for Jack. We have too many other bad contracts where people are overpaid. Now is that fair? Probably not. Would we prefer to overpay Jack versus others? Absolutely. But thats almost the Isiah Thomas approach and unfortunately Dolan doesnt own the Pacers.

    We are basically in a position that we have to find almost steals from a contract standpoint. At least till we rid ourselves of some of the contracts that Ford, Dunleavy, Murphy and Tinsley possess. Thats why you can clearly see the direction is to add guys on their rookie contracts and very inexpensive guys while hopefully, slowly but surely, ridding ourselves of the undesirable contracts.

    On a sidenote that you asked about Jack becoming untradeable at a MLE contract level. I would say dangerously close. Especially if he goes to Toronto. Again, in this day and age, a backup getting full MLE money is quickly becoming a thing of the past. In past years, it wasnt as big of a problem, but the financial outlook of the NBA is changing quickly. And its not likely that the guys on the top end wont continue to get paid big bucks, which means something has to give and thats gonna be towards the middle-because the bottom end doesnt change either. In fact it continues to rise slowly. So the guys in the middle will get pinched.

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    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    Colangelo is just trying things. . . .He already flopped twice since he's been in Toronto, Signing Jack is just something to do. Personally, I think If Jack was smart he wouldn't go to Toronto, they really have nothing going on over there, sure Colangelo's business moves are good, but the players he's picking up, is whatever.
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    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    I think some people are hearing Jack got signed for the full MLE... and the draw the conclusion that since we used part of our MLE already (on Jones), we can't match Jack's offer...

    Not true... our MLE has nothing to do with re-signing your own players you have qualifying offers on...

    Soo signing outside players with our MLE and re-signing Jack has nothing to deal with each other.... BESIDES that we would stay below the luxury tax at the end of the day...
    "George's athleticism is bananas!" - Marc J. Spears

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    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    so,the only possible way for jack to come back is if we match that 5.8 million....like he cant decide if he wants to come back to us for less or waht?

  8. #182
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    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    Quote Originally Posted by tadscout View Post
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    I think some people are hearing Jack got signed for the full MLE... and the draw the conclusion that since we used part of our MLE already, we can't match Jack's offer...

    Not true... our MLE has nothing to do with re-signing your own players you have qualifying offers on...

    Soo signing outside players with our MLE and re-signing Jack has nothing to deal with each other.... BESIDES that we would stay below the luxury tax at the end of the day...
    I can't speak for others, but for me, I think it's an either/or because if we do match on Jack, and are willing to hit some LT issues because of it, I highly doubt we'll be looking to make the LT hit that much worse by adding yet MORE payroll.

    If we match Jack's offer, we'll almost certainly be filling out the roster by making vet. minimum signings or a 1-for-2 trade.

  9. #183
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    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    Quote Originally Posted by B00sh View Post
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    so,the only possible way for jack to come back is if we match that 5.8 million....like he cant decide if he wants to come back to us for less or waht?
    We have to match for him to come back. The near 100% consensus is that we won't, so it's very smart to begin preparing for Pacers b-ball w/o Jack.

    Very glad we got Price in round 2.

  10. #184
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    Quote Originally Posted by B00sh View Post
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    so,the only possible way for jack to come back is if we match that 5.8 million....like he cant decide if he wants to come back to us for less or waht?
    I think it's $5.6, to be exact, and to answer your question if he has signed this offer from Toronto, that's the contract he will absolutely get. It's just a matter of who is going to pay it: Toronto, or us. We have 7 days to decide. The ball is in Indiana's court now.

  11. #185
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    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    Quote Originally Posted by B00sh View Post
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    so,the only possible way for jack to come back is if we match that 5.8 million....like he cant decide if he wants to come back to us for less or waht?
    if he wanted to come back to us for less, he would have done that in the first place.
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  12. #186
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I think it's $5.6, to be exact, and to answer your question if he has signed this offer from Toronto, that's the contract he will absolutely get. It's just a matter of who is going to pay it: Toronto, or us. We have 7 days to decide. The ball is in Indiana's court now.
    The MLE is $5.854mm.

    http://www.nba.com/2009/news/07/07/s....ap/index.html

  13. #187

    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I think the decision comes down to, for them, what they think Jack is worth paying regardless of what the team salary looks like in the immediate future.
    That's exactly my point that the team did not want to pay the equivalent of MLE.
    Probably because they saw him as a short time fix. I hoped he would be retained because I doubt that Ford can go for long periods without further injuries.

  14. #188

    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    Jack isn't worth this. Colangelo is probably thinking about playing him along Calderon for 10/20 minutes per night, in order to justify this contract. Huge mistake, IMO.

    The Pacers should let him go and simply save the salary room:
    - they don't have money to sign Felton (who I used to dislike but grew on me last season) or Sessions (who also improved last season but is still not exactly a PG and defends terribly).
    - asking for a DPE because of Dunleavy is a far fetched scenario and probably the DPE wouldn't be enough to grab one of those two anyway
    - Among the UFA, I don't think there's one who's clearly much better than Diener. I don't think there are many guys much better than Price as 3rd string PGs either.
    - leaving space under the lux tax threshold may prove to be very valuable for the Pacers next off-season. They won't be under pressure to make roster moves just to push the salary roll down.

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  16. #189
    Looking like a season JB24's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    Could it possibly be bad wording on Aldridge's part? As in, they regained the MLE and used part of it on Jack.

  17. #190
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    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    Well, that blows up my math on the other page, I think.

    So it's worse than I even realized.

    Damn it.

    That would make the numbers:

    $5,854,000
    $6,322,320
    $6,828,105
    $7,374,354

    Total: 4 years, $26,378,779 which is approximately $26.4 million. Average of $6,594,694 per year or approximately $6.6mm.


  18. #191
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    Quote Originally Posted by JB24 View Post
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    Could it possibly be bad wording on Aldridge's part? As in, they regained the MLE and used part of it on Jack.
    Yes, that's possible...but I'm not holding my breath.

  19. #192

    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    I think Felton could be had, but he will command 5+ mil a year too. The issue becomes if MJ or LB decide to go with Augustin and send Felton to Indy in a S&T. They'd need a veteran backup. We could do a deal like:

    Foster + pick/??? for signed and traded Felton?

  20. #193
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    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    Well since you cant use the mle on him i just did the match on a calculator, and we started with 8 mil., subtract 2.7 mil. from that for jones, and we only have 5.3 mil. to spend on jack and mcroberts so im pretty sure we dont even have enuf for him...tell me if im wrong.

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    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I can't speak for others, but for me, I think it's an either/or because if we do match on Jack, and are willing to hit some LT issues because of it, I highly doubt we'll be looking to make the LT hit that much worse by adding yet MORE payroll.

    If we match Jack's offer, we'll almost certainly be filling out the roster by making vet. minimum signings or a 1-for-2 trade.
    Well I was just trying to separate the thought that the MLE is used to resign your own players, thus the Jones signing hurt... blah blah...

    I highly doubt they'd match the offer for Jack b/c it'll put the handcuffs on us financially (Luxurary tax wise, and being able to do trade/ fill out roster) this and next year, unless we would be able to make a trade to shed salary or get very lucky in the Tinsley arbitration ruling (ala they rule that Tinsley has to take a buyout in the form McDyess took with Denver this past season, which took him off their books)...
    "George's athleticism is bananas!" - Marc J. Spears

  22. #195
    Wasting Light Hicks's Avatar
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    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    Unless Aldridge didn't really mean the full MLE,

  23. #196
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    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    Quote Originally Posted by B00sh View Post
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    so,the only possible way for jack to come back is if we match that 5.8 million....like he cant decide if he wants to come back to us for less or waht?

    Actually he can choose to come back for less. If he chooses that course, then he doesnt sign the offer sheet. But if he signs the offer sheet, he's saying the only way Ill play for the Pacers is if they pay me the same as Toronto.

    You hate to see him go, but thats business sometimes. We loved having him here, and if not for us and the opportunity he got with us, then he almost assuredly doesnt get this deal.

  24. #197

    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    Since we only rented jack for a season I hope that Rush has a better career than Bayless since that trade is now one for one.

  25. #198
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    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    Quote Originally Posted by Smoothdave1 View Post
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    I think Felton could be had, but he will command 5+ mil a year too. The issue becomes if MJ or LB decide to go with Augustin and send Felton to Indy in a S&T. They'd need a veteran backup. We could do a deal like:

    Foster + pick/??? for signed and traded Felton?
    Better yet, Tinsley instead of Foster. Though with the BYC implications the deal would have to grow in order to work.

    Im not sure if something like Tinsley and Foster for Nazr and a S&T Felton would work. Should be close.

    Of course Jeff would probably kill us.

  26. #199

    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    Since we only rented jack for a season I hope that Rush has a better career than Bayless since that trade is now one for one.
    McRoberts was in the trade too. So we still have that going for us. Which is nice.
    WE ARE NOT GETTING ERIC GORDON

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    Default Re: Update: Raptors sign Jack for 4 year deal, possibly for full MLE (see page 7)

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    Since we only rented jack for a season I hope that Rush has a better career than Bayless since that trade is now one for one.
    Don't forget Diogu versus Mac.

    Regardless, it was worth it unless Rush bombs and Bayless doesn't. Even a one year rental of Jack was significant for helping turn things around here. I don't regret having him here for a season one bit.

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