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Roy and Tyler: Supreme Tag Team Flexing Muscles

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  • #16
    Re: Roy and Tyler: Supreme Tag Team Flexing Muscles

    The good and the bad of summer league, the things I think we will see for at least the first few months of the regular season from these guys. To end with a happy note I'll start with the bad.


    BAD
    Roy and Tyler both play below the rim on the glass and are often beat out noticeably on the defensive glass where tip backs and 2nd chances seem to be the norm this summer for opponents. This is exactly the reason people saw Blair as such a nice fit for Indy. Neither player is very good at carving out space for boards.

    Roy has gone into the Jeff Foster bad night realm of missed bunnies and putbacks, including missing a bunny that he turned into a dunk when it came right back to him. It was accidental stat padding for Jeff and the same is true for Roy. People are going to get frustrated with this part of his game in a hurry.

    Roy also is lost on defense, at least early on. When they first set up he looks awkward and confused about exactly where he needs to be, who he's setting up against, and where the initial attack is going to come from. For example, if it's a transition and he is back first, he will still linger well off the rim while scouting out for where his man is going to setup. Meanwhile behind him a guard beats his man and comes to the rim uncontested. He's gotta learn to see that initial threat unfolding instead of worrying so much about finding his guy when that dude is still at halfcourt and not a threat.

    Tyler just plays below the rim A LOT. After all this "boy, you should have seen his hops during tryouts, this kid was surprisingly atheletic" what we have instead seen is exactly the reason he was ranked lower all these years as a prospect. When stopped in the post he absolutely can't score over people. He can't face up and raise up at all without getting stuffed. He can't spin by someone for the dunk. None of this. He works through his series of admittedly nice fundamental post work spins, ducks, etc and if he doesn't get what amounts to an open layup out of that (or the foul) he's basically screwed.

    The same applies to his defense, he can be shot over and if he doesn't catch his man off guard early on with a quick swipe it gets pretty uncomfortable. People that wanted a defensive post presence are not going to be happy come JAN. If Blair has a good start himself this will again creep up to haunt Larry.

    Both aren't very good at getting post position. Tyler is better IMO, but both can be beat to their spot by moderately capable post defenders. For Tyler this means no post game at that point, whereas Roy can be fed over the top due to his height. Stil Roy is much better when he gets in front of his man and clamps him out since it opens up a lot more options for him.


    GOOD
    Roy has a fabulous hook shot working and I think he'll get that at will as long as he is fed correctly in the post. At his height this is as lethal as Rik's turn jumper was. It's almost unblockable.

    Roy has shown some really nice passing out of the post to all sorts of cutters. He carries great offensive awareness and the ability to make good on it.

    Along that same line he looks terrific working the PnR too. He understands the objective and his role in it. With AJ Price as his other half he ran picture perfect NBA PnRs on Boston.

    Tyler draws fouls like an elite. There is a trend there in keeping with his NC days. I doubted he could do it, but so far I'm a believer. Part of it is hustle but it's far more than that. Tyler is quicker than you would think. Oh, and since he is a great FT shooter he's going to cash in a lot at the line.

    That quickness works best when Tyler can get post position because his first step is ultra-quick. As soon as the ball is on him he goes into a very quick spin with solid footwork that gives him an instant advantage on his man. At that point he's very likely to draw the catch-up foul, and if the help defense isn't there he's going to score the basket too.

    Tyler has a similar quick turnaround that gives him a nice bit of space to shoot his low jumper. It will take a pretty quick defender to stuff this shot.

    Tyler at times has show the range he had in college. I wish it had been more consistant, but Rush also couldn't buy a bucket in game 1 so who knows. It does seem like Tyler will at least provide the same Foster jumper we saw last season and that will work well in JOB's system.

    Roy has limited his fouls a bit and isn't reaching quite as bad. He's closed out on guard pull-up jumpers that resulted in misses thanks to his imposing height/reach. His defense is Smits-like most of the time, but still somewhat effective as a shot blocking deterrent type.

    Tyler and Roy both work the transition game well. Tyler especially hustles back and this gives him free chances he normally wouldn't have.



    McBob
    Having said all that, I think McRoberts looked better than either of them in most ways. He needs to play a little calmer with the ball. He has the handles and I'm fine with him bringing it up and making plays, but he drifted into all-star game offense in his limited time too.

    Still it's hard to deny that prior to his injury he was the most exciting player out there for Indy. He gets up the floor faster than the other 2, has better handles, clearly better hops, gets better post position, plays stronger overall, plays above the rim more.


    The main thing is that all 3 are DIFFERENT. You can mix up your looks and attack with these 3 and if we cross our fingers and they all pan out to a decent level, the Pacers will be set on the front line. Not all-stars, but perhaps Smits-Dale caliber (talent level, not game) "get the job done enough" types that are good enough to be part of a solid team.

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    • #17
      Re: Roy and Tyler: Supreme Tag Team Flexing Muscles

      Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
      Tyler just plays below the rim A LOT. After all this "boy, you should have seen his hops during tryouts, this kid was surprisingly atheletic" what we have instead seen is exactly the reason he was ranked lower all these years as a prospect. When stopped in the post he absolutely can't score over people. He can't face up and raise up at all without getting stuffed. He can't spin by someone for the dunk. None of this. He works through his series of admittedly nice fundamental post work spins, ducks, etc and if he doesn't get what amounts to an open layup out of that (or the foul) he's basically screwed.

      The same applies to his defense, he can be shot over and if he doesn't catch his man off guard early on with a quick swipe it gets pretty uncomfortable. People that wanted a defensive post presence are not going to be happy come JAN. If Blair has a good start himself this will again creep up to haunt Larry.
      I don't know about anyone else, but I am not expecting Hansbrough to ever be much of a low post scorer at all - in fact I am not expecting him to be a primary scrorer at all. I expect him to get his points in transition or off of his teammates either in pick and roll situations or from moves made by Granger or perhaps a lot of good player and ball movement. At no time do I ever expect Hansbrough to be a player we run the offense through or the offense for.

      I also am not expecting him to be a defensive post presense at all - in the slightest. I'm hoeful he is a better defender than Murphy - and if he ever defends as well as Foster as I'd be thrilled - but I'm not expecting him to be a highly skilled defender.

      I do expect him to be someone who plays hard all the time, maximizes his basketball and athletic ability, plays a team game, learns the system as well as anyone can learn it, I expct him to be a good teammate, a good guy and someone who after 10 years almost all of us are glad he was a Pacer.

      When did the expectations get out of whack - or am I misreading something here.

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      • #18
        Re: Roy and Tyler: Supreme Tag Team Flexing Muscles

        Tyler just needs to learn how to jump from his toes from a stand still.. Right now he is to flat footed and that takes away a bit of power. If you are flat footed then you are basically just using your upper legs. A different technique could help as well to make sure he uses his toes. . There is a reason his max vertical is only 1" shorter than Griffins..

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        • #19
          Re: Roy and Tyler: Supreme Tag Team Flexing Muscles

          I hope this will help Roy become more of a powerful center and not be afraid to dunk on someone.

          As for Tyler, he's coming into the league with a good amount of muscle in his arms.

          Comment


          • #20
            Re: Roy and Tyler: Supreme Tag Team Flexing Muscles

            Originally posted by Naptown_Seth View Post

            McBob
            Having said all that, I think McRoberts looked better than either of them in most ways. He needs to play a little calmer with the ball. He has the handles and I'm fine with him bringing it up and making plays, but he drifted into all-star game offense in his limited time too.

            Still it's hard to deny that prior to his injury he was the most exciting player out there for Indy. He gets up the floor faster than the other 2, has better handles, clearly better hops, gets better post position, plays stronger overall, plays above the rim more.



            Naptown, you're placing athleticism over basketball ability. You nitpick Roy for missing bunnies even though he is leading the summer league in fg% (66%). You want him to shoot 75%? 80%? No one does. He's going to miss some bunnies even as he improves. Tim Duncan misses close shots too. Want proof? Look at his fg%. He isn't exactly shooting 75% either. You even almost seem to imply that Roy is padding his numbers by missing shots ala Jeff Foster only to put the ball back in the hole on the second try. What?

            If athleticism is your thing then please go take a look at Mareessee Spreights. He has all the athleticism in the world, he has a bunch of fancy skills, he can run the floor like a deer. And like McRoberts he has that ahndle that you seem to care about your big man having. He is also shooting under 38% from the floor and is a blackhole with little understanding of the game. He, also, hasn't proven that all of his athletic gifts helps his teams win games. Even summer leagues ones. But he passes the "look" test that so many folks make the mistake of going by. Give me big guys who can get it done in the paint even when doing so it isn't pretty. Give me big guys who have a soft shooting touch and yet still play mostly in the paint trying to get the more high percentage buckets. Give me big men with an understanding of the game and high IQs who know to look for teammates.

            McRoberts has some of these same positive qualities. But what did McRoberts end up doing for the team? When the game was on the line in the first contest it was still Tyler and, despite an awful first half, Roy, who were getting the tough baskets at the end. While its not McRoberts' fault that he got hurt in game #2 the fact is that because of it he wasn't even able to prove he could take the pounding and pressure over a four day period like H & H. He was unable to prove he could deliver when it mattered most. And as I pointed out in another thread he wasn't able to show he even had a halfcourt game, specifically when it comes to having a go-to move. Uncontested dunks on fast breaks don't count. The NBA has a million big men who can do that after racing down the court. The NBA does not have enough big men who can post up a defender and then rely on their own moves to get a needed two points. Which is more valuable? In the post season when fastbreaks become rare what is the more precious commodity: the big man who can beat guards on the break or the big man who can post up I halfcourt and either draw a foul or make tough shots? You say McRoberts can get stronger position. Okay, was he able to show an actual move when doing so?

            I don't want it to seem as if I'm bashing McRoberts because he has tons of potential. But of the three Pacers we are discussing he has displayed arguably the least as a pro even though he has been in the league longer than the other two. Sure, Tyler has only played in summer league so far but in one week he may have made more of an impression than McRoberts has in two seasons. And that includes McRoberts’s previous appearances in summer leagues and preseason games. Roy is getting double-teamed by opponents in the post for goodness sakes these past couple of games to slow him down. When does the more athletically gifted McRoberts get to THAT level that defendes feel they ahve to do that against him...even in the summer league?

            McRoberts had one explosive first quarter on offense in the second game and yet you seem to suggest he was on fire every time he was on the floor. Come on. As a fan of high school and college hoops I followed all three guys to an extent when they were amateurs. Roy was basically unranked in his senior year of high school. Tyler was selected to the McDonald All American game and was expected to have a solid college career. That’s it. The guy who was expected to be a sure-fire top five NBA selection of the three was Josh. Well, what happened? He had some issues at Duke, he wasn’t the best listener and from many reports he wasn’t the best teammate. Not to say he was a bad guy but he was a bit immature and a tad overwhelmed trying to live up to his hype. He didn’t have close to the careers in college as Roy and especially Tyler had even though he had the supposedly superior abilities. Perhaps if he actually stayed in school for four years he would have learned something and not been as behind the curve. But part of the blame lays at his lack of commitment at that time. If he gets it together then perhaps he will eventually live up to his press clippings. But as of right now he has proven less than the other two slower and less athletic guys. And there’s hardly anyone who watched the games in Orlando this week who would tale Josh over Roy or Tyler. And even less people who would say he was more impressive than the two of them.

            Lastly I will agree that Roy and Tyler are not stellar rebounders (although perhaps you should give Tyler some time to work on this). That being said stop dismissing the fact that Roy is probably the first or second leading rebounder at this event. He’s never going to be a great rebounder but its not as if he is giving the Pacers nothing on that front.


            Sorry for the rant, folks.

            Comment


            • #21
              Re: Roy and Tyler: Supreme Tag Team Flexing Muscles

              Originally posted by Naptown
              Tyler draws fouls like an elite. There is a trend there in keeping with his NC days. I doubted he could do it, but so far I'm a believer. Part of it is hustle but it's far more than that. Tyler is quicker than you would think. Oh, and since he is a great FT shooter he's going to cash in a lot at the line.
              This is probably my favorite aspect of his game. How long has it been since we had a guy who could consistently get to the free throw line and convert? That's a crucial part of good teams.
              It's a new day for Pacers Basketball.

              Comment


              • #22
                Re: Roy and Tyler: Supreme Tag Team Flexing Muscles

                Originally posted by pizza guy View Post
                This is probably my favorite aspect of his game. How long has it been since we had a guy who could consistently get to the free throw line and convert? That's a crucial part of good teams.
                Well, Reggie was a constant 88%+ FT shooter, and Diener is 86%, Ford 87%, Dunleavy is right now at 82%.
                Last edited by duke dynamite; 07-10-2009, 03:18 PM.

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                • #23
                  Re: Roy and Tyler: Supreme Tag Team Flexing Muscles

                  Originally posted by pizza guy View Post
                  This is probably my favorite aspect of his game. How long has it been since we had a guy who could consistently get to the free throw line and convert? That's a crucial part of good teams.
                  About three months...

                  Danny Granger averaged 6.9 FTA's per game (14th in the league) and shot .878 from the line.

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                  • #24
                    Re: Roy and Tyler: Supreme Tag Team Flexing Muscles

                    Originally posted by count55 View Post
                    About three months...

                    Danny Granger averaged 6.9 FTA's per game (14th in the league) and shot .878 from the line.
                    OK, good point. But, the second half of my post still holds true. It's crucial to have that guy on your team, and having a few of them is a plus.

                    I suppose what I was thinking was that since we lost so many close games last season, it is nice to have someone who will get to the line. How many of those games could have been won at the free throw line?

                    Although, I'm not sure that Tyler will really help in that regard. To win close games at the free throw line by creating contact and getting free throws, there generally has to be a "star" involved, not just a nice role player. Danny is our "star," but he's not a Kobe or LeBron or Iverson, who can utilize his strength, intelligence, and star power to take control of a game in this way. And, if Danny can't do it, highly doubtful Pyscho T can do it as a rookie.

                    Also, and I may be off-base here, getting to the free throw line isn't necessarily something Danny does on purpose, but more a side-effect of his style of play. Iverson can shoot the ball like crazy, but his greatest ability as a scorer was always getting into the lane, creating contact, and getting to the line. It was intentional that that was his plan. When the Lakers were struggling a little in games in this year's playoffs, Kobe would attack, get to the line and calm everything down by making free throws. That's just not the way Danny seems to play, IMO. And certainly, Travis Diener doesn't qualify in my eyes. I like Travis, but he's not the guy that's going to take control of a game by getting to the line. Neither is TJ, though he has a little more of a focus on getting to the line, he's just not going to alter the course of a game by imposing his will. I saw Danny do it a couple times, but I wouldn't call him a force when it comes to that.

                    Again, Tyler probably won't be either. But, I'm optimistic that it could happen because I'm just generally optimistic.

                    Like I said, I could be mistaken, I didn't get to watch as much basketball as I wanted this season with the new business and new baby. If I am, tell me and I'll shut up, lol. But, that's the feeling I had during my season as a "casual fan" and not a Pacers/PD Junkie like usual.
                    It's a new day for Pacers Basketball.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Re: Roy and Tyler: Supreme Tag Team Flexing Muscles

                      The thing about NBA refs is that they seem to like to reward guys who keep going hard to the basket. It may take a bit but I think Tyler will get plenty of chances at the line as the season progresses.

                      After these past few games I want Roy and Tyler on the floor at the same time as much as possible.

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Re: Roy and Tyler: Supreme Tag Team Flexing Muscles

                        I agree with that. It's nice to be able to put out two bigman scorers who don't get in each other's way (and in fact either one can hit a mid-range jumper while the other is doubled down low).

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