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Thread: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

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    Default Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    There are many ways to add talent to your roster in the NBA, that is obvious. Every fan of the Pacers is right now studying the free agent listings, looking for people we can identify that make sense for Indiana from a financial and need standpoint. I think most of the ideas we've mentioned on here are probably being looked at at least somewhat by the Pacers front office.

    And no doubt, many trade proposals are out there. As teams all jockey for positioning, opportunities for deals will occur. Again, most of the people we have mentioned as "tradeable" from our perspective is likely an accurate list: Jeff Foster and T.J. Ford are both probably our 2 most realistic people to deal, probably in that order, from the wants and needs of teams around the league.

    But today I want to mention 2 different ways of acquiring players that I haven't heard mentioned yet by most of this board, and I think it is time that we examine the possibilities of both, and who might be a likely partner for us.

    They are:

    1. A "sign and trade" of Jarrett Jack.
    2. using our approximately 2,000,000 trade exception to acquire a low salaried player from another team who is not a current free agent.

    Let's examine both possibilities.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    I mentioned a long time ago that I thought, due to the timeline of events, that Jarrett Jack would likely not be brought back, and that a sign and trade deal of him made sense. I wavered on that due to all the positive comments coming from our own players, such as Danny Granger, about the positive contributions of Jack, but now I have come around back to where I have started: jack won't be back, and we will likely sign and trade him to a team who values his contributions and has low cost assets they are willing to deal to us to mitigate the financial cost to them.

    It is pretty clear that no contending team will be satisfied with Jarrett Jack as their starter, but in a backup point guard role (along with the ability to play occasionally at the "2"), he fits many contenders needs that we aren't currently thinking about.

    Think outside the box just a bit and you can see how Jack makes sense for many teams we aren't thinking about yet:

    BOSTON needs a player like Jack to sub for Rondo, and to occasionally play along side him.

    HOUSTON makes sense for Jack as a guy to back up Aaron Brooks, and to play some minutes alongside him....which is something their current backup Kyle Lowry cannot do.

    DENVER drafted Ty Lawson, but Jack makes much more sense for them, as he could theoretically back up Chauncey Billups and also replace Dahntay Jones, who most likely will leave the Nuggets as a free agent, perhaps to us.

    CHARLOTTE, if they happen to lose Ray Felton, would make alot of sense to end up with Larry Brown to reduce their payroll and be a tandem duo with DJ Augustine.

    Their are likely a bunch more teams out there who, for minimal financial cost to their overall budget, would love to add Jack to their mix.

    Our front office needs to quietly let Jack and his agent know that we are amenable to a deal with other teams structured like this, so they can shop him to many more suitors....I would predict that has already likely happened.

    An additional item to remember about Jarrett Jack's status would be this: AN AGREEMENT NOT TO MATCH AN OFFER SHEET TO JACK COULD BE A "HIDDEN" PART OF ANOTHER DEAL WE MAKE WITH ANOTHER TEAM.

    I'll have a possible example of this idea, just for illustration purposes, at the end of this article.

    I also would be greatly interested to hear some possibilities for sign and trade deals involving Jack, especially for players signed for slightly less money than Jack will likely get and who are under contract and not current free agents.

    Everyone, just think outside the box some and you'll see some interesting possibilities I promise you.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    The second idea is to use your roughly 2,000,000 trade exception to acquire a player basically for nothing.

    Anyone who knows salary cap rules knows that this is a possibility, and it expands the universe of players we can consider acquiring from players who are free agents currently all the way to guys who are currently under contract, and therefore aren't being considered by any of you.

    Why would a team want to just "give" us a player for nothing you ask?

    So they can clear salary to try and sign a bigger free agent, and they need the money to clear extra money to sweeten the offer in year number 1 of the deal!

    Let's look at Portland, for instance, and how a deal with them doing this would be possible....again, this is just an example:

    -Portland wants a little extra space to try and sweeten their offer for Hedo Terkoglu. An extra million or 2 off their cap would sweeten the deal enough to get him signed.

    -Portland calls Indiana (and other teams with trade exceptions) and starts auctioning off their less important players.

    -Indiana answers and says yes, we like one of your low salaried players (lets just say we like Rudy Fernandez, for example).

    -Portland then could trade Fernandez to Indiana for a future second round conditional draft pick, and then the deal would be legal under the CBA, as I understand it.

    This same scenario would work with any team who wants to clear cap space, and is even more likely to happen with teams almost at or slightly over the luxury tax. A team like Utah would love to give up a player they didn't need for example, if it could save them enough money to get under the dreaded dollar for dollar luxury tax.

    Almost any player drafted by any team after about the 12th pick (if my calculations are correct) would have a salary cheap enough to do this with, as long as they are still on their rookie deal. So, if you want to see some more possibilities, look at guys drafted in the last couple of years that aren't playing much on contenders who are wanting to make a push at an existing free agent or want to shave off their guaranteed salaries.

    Again, open your mind to the possibilities....Bird and Morway are creative, so you can bet things like this are being explored.

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------

    Let's look at a possible scenario involving a contender that involves both of these ideas, just to try and examine how it could work.

    Let's say for examples sake that the Pacers want to bring in Dahntay Jones as a backup wing man.

    STEP 1: Strike an agreement with Denver for a player the Nuggets likely would covet, Jeff Foster.

    STEP 2: Agree to terms with Jones, and have Denver execute a sign and trade deal with Jones in exchange for the contract of Jeff Foster.

    Assuming you sign Jones for somewhere around 3 years, 15 million, and if it were me I'd do it in a flat 5 per year. (This is just an example, I'm not actually advocating this exact deal, it is just for illustration).

    By trading Foster, you have now obtained Jones, saved 1.5 million this year approximately, and not had to use any of your MLE to do it.

    STEP 3: In exchange for doing this deal, the Pacers make a side agreement with Denver to agree not to match an offer sheet they could make for Jarrett Jack.

    STEP 4: In exchange for agreeing to step 3, Denver agrees to trade us the rights to Ty Lawson once he is signed to his rookie deal for a conditional second round pick. This they can do because we have a "trade exception" large enough to handle Lawson's contract. (Again, this is just an example, I am not saying it is realistic, wise, or going to happen necessarily).

    Again, the Pacers acquire 2 helpful players in moves that are revenue nuetral, and have not yet had to use any of their MLE or total available money to spend to stay under the luxury tax threshold of approximately 8,000,000.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Once again, I am not using the above scenario as anything likely to happen in its exact form, I just came up with it to try and give an example of how complicated and creative we may have to be in order to fill holes on our roster, and I wanted to have a scenario that had all possibilities in it at one time. I'm not advocating signing Jones (in fact I don't think we are interested in him in reality), or dealing with Denver, nor am I advocating trading Foster necessarily (though I probably would explore it personally).

    Just keep in mind that there are hidden possibilities and creative solutions that most haven't considered yet, and I wanted to add some light to the situation as I see it.

    Of course, I could be all wet and all wrong, and if so I am sure Count55 will correct me....but I don't think I am.

    I'd be interested in hearing which players currently under contract for salaries under 2 million bucks that you would be interested in trying to trade for, and who of players fitting that criterial would be available.

    I'd be interested in which teams might be interested in Jack, and who those teams have on their rosters you feel would be worthy to trade for him that also would be slightly less money than he will sign for. If you use as a baseline around 5,000,000 per year for Jack, any player you suggest would need to have a contract around 4,000,000 by my theory.

    My understanding is that any sign and trade for Jack would have to be a 1 for 1 deal, no additional players added.....unless again we use our trade exception creatively in a separate but simultaneous deal with that same team.



    Just a few things to think about over the holiday weekend........

    As always, the above is just my opinion.......

    Tbird

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    Yeah, you can't make a nod-and-wink deal not to match Jack's contract. It's an express violation of the CBA, and things could get relatively ugly

    There can be no compensation given to a team in return for their not matching an offer to a restricted free agent. For example, Houston could not sign Golden State's restricted free agent, then send Golden State a draft pick in exchange for their not matching the offer and retaining the player.
    http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q36

    Also, I can find nothing expressly limiting S&T to one-for-one deals. However, Jack would almost certainly become a BYC player, meaning we'd probably only be able to take back 50% of his salary.

    It really, really screws things up in this instance.

    http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q76
    Last edited by count55; 07-03-2009 at 03:26 PM.

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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    The "thanks" button automatically gets pressed when I read your posts.

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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    Yeah, you can't make a nod-and-wink deal not to match Jack's contract. It's an express violation of the CBA, and things could get relatively ugly



    http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q36

    Also, I can find nothing expressly limiting S&T to one-for-one deals. However, Jack would almost certainly become a BYC player, meaning we'd probably only be able to take back 50% of his salary.

    It really, really screws things up in this instance.

    http://members.cox.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm#Q76
    As always, great stuff Count!

    Count is correct as far as the math goes regarding the BYC provisions of a potential Jarrett Jack sign and trade.

    To avoid having to worry about such things, Jack would have to agree to a deal starting out in its first year of about 3.4 million (approximately a 20% raise over his last year salary of approx 2.9 million).

    Would Jack agree to that? I don't know, but it seems doubtful.

    Wouldn't the Pacers, if he WOULD agree to that, just keep him? Probably.

    But that is exactly the scenario we would need to happen to avoid the BYC concerns.

    However, that doesn't change the central point I had that we can obtain another cheaper player by signing and trading Jack to a contender....which I think is a likely outcome. Under the CBA though it looks like we will have to take back a cheaper player than I originally thought....which the Pacers likely are ok with long term. The fact that we can take back a cheaper player than I originally thought in fact makes this scenario MORE likely, not less, in my view.

    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

    The "wink and nod" agreements between teams are extremely difficult to prove. Whether it would be worth the risk to actually attempt is another matter however. Good find on that one Count...I looked for it prior to posting and overlooked it.

    Still, I think something like that no doubt has been done before, and could entail all sorts of things that we haven't thought of yet between ownership groups behind closed doors.

    I wouldnt rule out the possibility is all I am saying.

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    Just so you know, the last time a team was caught doing a wink-and-a-nod agreement, they lost five 1st round draft picks. (Minny with Joe Smith).

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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    Couldn't a team bypass the "wink and nod agreement" bit by making such information common knowledge? Announcing to the media, "We aren't going to be able to retain this player" would work, correct?

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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    T Bird,


    As always your posts are well thought out , intelligent , and worth reading. I still haven't figured out where you get the time to write such deep posts, lol

    I too have wondered about sign and trades. I really would love to trade Murphy, resigned Daniels( S&T) for either Boozer or Millsap.

    The whole reason I get on Bird is I want to see/hear/read that he at least tried to make a bunch of moves, whether they come to fruition or not.

    Its the lack of, or perceived lack of moves that really bothers me, and I will say it again if we were in NY, Chitown etc. the fans would be killing Bird because they are never content with average.

    GReat post
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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    Quote Originally Posted by PugdOut View Post
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    Its the lack of, or perceived lack of moves that really bothers me, and I will say it again if we were in NY, Chitown etc. the fans would be killing Bird because they are never content with average.
    Here we go again...

    How do you expect us to make moves? How do you expect us to sign big name players? You're right, this isn't Chicago, this isn't New York. For some reason you are having a hard time reading between the lines.

    I still have no idea where you are getting this non-average talent thing. WE ARE REBUILDING.

    Please explain to the class on how Larry can do these things that you say need to be done before October.
    Last edited by duke dynamite; 07-03-2009 at 04:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    I'm sure Pug has run through a million scenarios in NBA 2K9 that would help us.

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    Quote Originally Posted by DocHolliday View Post
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    Couldn't a team bypass the "wink and nod agreement" bit by making such information common knowledge? Announcing to the media, "We aren't going to be able to retain this player" would work, correct?
    Team X signs Jack to offer sheet.

    Either shortly before or shortly after the Pacers decline to match the offer, they make a deal with Team X on terms suspiciously favorable to the Pacers.

    Everybody with an IQ above room temperature knows that the Pacers and Team X colluded.

    It seems like a huge amount of risk with really very little opportunity for a good return.

    Edit: If you announce that you're not going to match, then why would a team consider it in the trade? If you announce it to the media as a means to communicating to the team you're acquiescence and are expecting future considerations, then you've already made a wink-and-a-nod agreement.
    Last edited by count55; 07-03-2009 at 04:21 PM.

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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    I'm sure Pug has run through a million scenarios in NBA 2K9 that would help us.
    Is that supposed to be funny or an attack on my basketball knowledge?

    Either way you are entitled to your opinon, althopugh I dont understand the need to go after me as I dont think I was rude in any way

    Have a blessed fourth of July!

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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    How do you expect us to make moves?
    I really don't want to go into back and forth with you, since I have been warned not to do so.

    In your quest to attack me yet again, I said I would like to "hear,read, see that bird is TRYING to at least make moves.

    I guess you failed to read that in my post, but if it makes you feel superior to keep coming at me, please do so

    After facing the enemy in the Gulf war, in combat, nothing, really bothers me anymore

    Glad you have the time to go after people in the fashion you do.

    Hows life up on that pedestal by the way?
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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    why does this board think we are going to trade ty lawson? weve wanted him for two years, gave up a futureu first just to draft him...so we can trade him?

    ironically for jarrett jack (another guy we drafted...only to trade for linas kleiza on draft day...another player the pacers want)

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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    You really think that everything that Bird does goes straight to the media to be reported? C'mon.

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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    Quote Originally Posted by PugdOut View Post
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    I really don't want to go into back and forth with you, since I have been warned not to do so.
    Please don't misunderstand me. The warnings were about namecalling and character attacks. Otherwise, carry on. Debate away.

    Hows life up on that pedestal by the way?
    This isn't terrible, but I'd try to avoid it to focus on actual debate/discussion or else that's all your opponents are going to see.

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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    Quote Originally Posted by PugdOut View Post
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    Hows life up on that pedestal by the way?
    It's a pretty nice view, thanks for asking.

    I have yet to "attack" you, unless calling you out is considered an attack. It's been public knolwedge, or at least knowledge of people who have been following closely that Bird has been very active in the market since the end of this season.

    Trying to plug your credentials from the service doesn't make your claims any more viable than before. But by all means, continue to tell me that grass is purple and the sky is brown.
    Last edited by duke dynamite; 07-03-2009 at 05:17 PM.

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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    Just so you know, the last time a team was caught doing a wink-and-a-nod agreement, they lost five 1st round draft picks. (Minny with Joe Smith).
    YESSS I remember that...
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacers View Post
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    I'm sure Pug has run through a million scenarios in NBA 2K9 that would help us.
    Just like everyone else here....Pugh is entitled to his opinion.
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    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    -Portland calls Indiana (and other teams with trade exceptions) and starts auctioning off their less important players.

    -Indiana answers and says yes, we like one of your low salaried players (lets just say we like Rudy Fernandez, for example).

    -Portland then could trade Fernandez to Indiana for a future second round conditional draft pick, and then the deal would be legal under the CBA, as I understand it.
    I don't think Portland is going to trade Rudy.

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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    I wonder if we could trade Jack for Lawson or Kleiza
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



  25. #21

    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    TBird,

    I like the way you think, man.

    Still, I think Bird set the stage recently when he said he and Morray would basically sit back and pick up the leftovers from free agency as the Pacers just don't have the money to go after the big names. Although it's early, I am surprised at the number of player who have moved already, i.e., Artest, Ariza, Shaq, Gordan, etc. I keep telling myself my team just can't get in the game right now and not to be too disappointed when I don't read a headline indicated some big trade they've made. IMO, the only way that happens is by doing a sign-and-trade. Otherwise, expect the Pacers to take a "wait-and-see" approach to free agency and sit on the sidelines until much of the wheeling and dealing has died down.

    Now, that's not such a bad thing. The pickings may be slimmer, but if all you're looking for is a little "help" off the bench, getting a FA late in the game would be okay. Still, the question is how to do it w/o messing with your core of young players - Granger, BRush, Hibbert and Hansbrough?

    We all know Tinsley won't be moved any time soon...at least not until his arbitration hearing is over. No team will take Dunleavy right now until his rehab is done and they're able to see what kind of player they'd get after he's had some on-the-court time. So, those two players are out. (And frankly, I wouldn't be trying to move Dunleavy anyway. If he gave you 18 ppg on a bum knee and hip, just imagine how much better he's going to be with those injury limitations removed?)

    Murphy's trade stock greatly improved after the season he had last year, but his contract remains problematic for most teams. So, that leaves TJ Ford, Jack, and Diener since we already know Rasho, Baston and Graham won't be back and that the Pacers won't be making Daniels a qualifying offer.

    As much as I like Diener, I don't think teams will be breaking down the door to get him, not even as a backup. I don't mean to make it sound like he's a bad player because he's not. However, he's merely a servicable player, and that's not what teams are looking for right now. So, you can scratch him off the list of viable trade bait except as part of a packaged-deal.

    TJ would be a starter on most teams, but I think he's run into the same realm of "coach's dissatisfaction w/his PG" as Doc Rivers has w/Rando. You kinda saw the writing on the wall when Ford lost his starting role to Jack late in the season. So, he's a viable piece to use in a trade; not necessarily in a straight-up player-for-player trade, but teams will take a look at him (if they haven't already).

    You can only hope Daniels doesn't get many offers and he'll come back for less money. I doubt that will happen, but one can hope. Regardless, until we have him back under contract, he's not a piece the Pacers can use as leverage in a trade of any sort. And that leaves us w/Jack.

    I'm really not holding my breath that JJ will return. He's a good player w/the tools to be a solid starter on most teams. Right now, it's a matter of the Pacers not being out-priced. So, the question is how do that Pacers make moves w/o hurting their roster too much? The answer: Don't panic and look for players along the periphery of the NBA - the D-League, overseas, summer league leftovers and FA holdouts. Of course, they could get creative as TBird has suggested, but I think their odds are low to make any big-time moves no matter what they try to do. This year, they just don't have the pieces to make most teams an offer they just can't refuse. Then again, when have they ever? My point here is we'd be lucky if Bird/Morray were able to make a sign-and-trade or pickup a worthwhile FA considering Bird has made it clear he has no intensions of going over the luxury tax threshold.

    I hope our scouts are out in force doing what they get paid to do - find talent. Hopefully, they're able to find a diamond in the rough. Right about now, I'd settle for a cubic zirconia.
    Last edited by NuffSaid; 07-04-2009 at 09:17 AM.

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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    Quote Originally Posted by grace View Post
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    I don't think Portland is going to trade Rudy.
    Is not about them wanting to trade him, is about him wanting to be traded, he is mad because they signed Turkoglu and feels that his role is going to diminish now.

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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    Actually it has nothing to do with Fernandez at all.

    T-Bird just picked that name out of thin air to use as an example of a trade possibility.

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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    I would crap a brick and do naked cartwheels in the street if the Pacers nabbed Fernandez. That guy has All-Star potential and is a walking highlight reel.

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    Default Re: Player acquisition idea: Looking for outside the box ways to add talent to the Pacers roster

    I'm starting to wonder if Earl is back.

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    Last Post: 04-24-2004, 11:37 AM

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