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Thread: Artest To Sign With Lakers

  1. #126
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Artest To Sign With Lakers

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Yes, there were other factors that made things worse, but Ron not only started the ball rolling, he WAS the ball.
    Stated perfectly. Thanks.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  2. #127
    You can call me Taz cinotimz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Artest To Sign With Lakers

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Yes, there were other factors that made things worse, but Ron not only started the ball rolling, he WAS the ball.
    Completely false. Whatever ball that was rolling, started long before Ron got here.

    And thats why its preposterous to point the finger at ron for the franchise's demise.

    Did his antics help the situation? Absolutely not. Only aggravated the situation. But the point is, that situation already existed when he got here. There were big problems before he got here and big problems after he left.

    Ron wasnt the problem.

    Reggie even said so.

    But lemme guess, we shouldn't believe Reggie either? Just disregard all facts that dont suit our desire to place the blame where we would like.

    Ron is an easy target and scapegoat. Very easy to just throw all the blame on him.

    Only, for one small thing. Its inaccurate.

  3. #128

    Default Re: Artest To Sign With Lakers

    I would rather have Ben Wallace in a pacer uniform than Ron. And I can't stand Ben either.

  4. #129
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    Default Re: Artest To Sign With Lakers

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    I would rather have Ben Wallace in a pacer uniform than Ron. And I can't stand Ben either.
    I don't know if I'd go that far. At least with Ron you know on a good day he can still play basketball. On a good day Ben Wallace just takes up space.

  5. #130

    Default Re: Artest To Sign With Lakers

    Quote Originally Posted by grace View Post
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    I don't know if I'd go that far. At least with Ron you know on a good day he can still play basketball. On a good day Ben Wallace just takes up space.
    Do you like holding your breath hoping that Ron doesn't have one of those really awful days? A lot to be said for just taking up space.

  6. #131
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    Default Re: Artest To Sign With Lakers

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    Do you like holding your breath hoping that Ron doesn't have one of those really awful days? A lot to be said for just taking up space.
    Quote Originally Posted by grace View Post
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    If you held a gun to my head and told me I had to chose between Ron Artest and Bonzi Wells I'd give serious consideration to having you just shoot me and get it over with.
    Substitute Ben for Bonzi and it's the same situation as far as I'm concerned.

  7. #132
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Artest To Sign With Lakers

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Completely false. Whatever ball that was rolling, started long before Ron got here.

    And thats why its preposterous to point the finger at ron for the franchise's demise.

    -snip-
    Ron is an easy target and scapegoat. Very easy to just throw all the blame on him.

    Only, for one small thing. Its inaccurate.
    Okay, then. Tell us what it was. Because from what I could tell from Chicago, the problems left the Bulls and went down I-65 in February of 2002.

    Its remarkably accurate. If you don't think so, then add some details. And while I give Ron his share of the blame (hint: a lot), I blame management and his coaches as well - especially since they did nothing to "nip" his antics in the bud and were his enablers. If there was a Jalen-JO problem (which I'm not convinced of, I think it was a Jalen-Isiah problem), then that was fixed in the trade sending Jalen away.

    By the way, Reggie said, "Ron isn't the only problem." He made it clear that Ron was/is a problem but there were additional ones. He didn't say Ron wasn't a problem at all, so your comment is close to being misleading.

    Presumably Reggie was talking about Tinsley, because we know Reggie and JO were close and that Reggie was working hard to transition leadership of the team from Jalen to JO. I've always thought he meant SJax, but he wasn't here before Ron arrived so that doesn't help your case and you can't go there. You're pretty much stuck with Tinsley, Foster and Croshere, right? Bender? Zan Tabak? Who?

    Quit taking potshots. Fill in the blanks. Bring some substance to the discussion.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  8. #133
    Boom Baby'er ABADays's Avatar
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    Default Re: Artest To Sign With Lakers

    ChicagoJ

    I'm having a little problem interpreting your posts. So, I'll just come right out and ask. Do you like or dislike Ron?
    The best exercise of the human heart is reaching down and picking someone else up.

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  10. #134
    You can call me Taz cinotimz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Artest To Sign With Lakers

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Okay, then. Tell us what it was. Because from what I could tell from Chicago, the problems left the Bulls and went down I-65 in February of 2002.

    Its remarkably accurate. If you don't think so, then add some details. And while I give Ron his share of the blame (hint: a lot), I blame management and his coaches as well - especially since they did nothing to "nip" his antics in the bud and were his enablers. If there was a Jalen-JO problem (which I'm not convinced of, I think it was a Jalen-Isiah problem), then that was fixed in the trade sending Jalen away.

    By the way, Reggie said, "Ron isn't the only problem." He made it clear that Ron was/is a problem but there were additional ones. He didn't say Ron wasn't a problem at all, so your comment is close to being misleading.

    Presumably Reggie was talking about Tinsley, because we know Reggie and JO were close and that Reggie was working hard to transition leadership of the team from Jalen to JO. I've always thought he meant SJax, but he wasn't here before Ron arrived so that doesn't help your case and you can't go there. You're pretty much stuck with Tinsley, Foster and Croshere, right? Bender? Zan Tabak? Who?

    Quit taking potshots. Fill in the blanks. Bring some substance to the discussion.
    Come on now. If anyone is taking potshots, its certainly not me. I was very specific to what I disagree with, and why. I filled in all of the blanks. You are going strawman on me, and there's only one way that can go. Quit moving the goalposts. Your answer to everything seems to be that Ron is bad. He was bad before he got to Indy and he was bad during and after. Now while I think some of that is pretty debateable, Im really trying to avoid that subject because its apparent you, as well as others, feel very strongly about that and you are certainly entitled to.

    However, what I have stated as being inaccurate and/or incorrect is not really subject to opinion as they are pretty much a matter of facts. And these go to the impact that Ron had on the franchise. More to the point:

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Ron destroyed our franchise.
    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Yes, there were other factors that made things worse, but Ron not only started the ball rolling, he WAS the ball.
    Now first I would say that its very difficult and probably unfair to assign any one person total responsibility for whatever demise took place. But if you insist, Ron simply didn't start it nor is it reasonable to suggest he was responsible. There are a number of others that are far more reasonable to assign such responsibilities. As mentioned, even if you feel like he is the single most devastating thing to happen to the franchise-its simply unreasonable to assign the blame to him as he didn't ask to be here. Someone chose to go out and get him and chose to keep him here for a number of years.

    Now as you say, you predicted such because you were very familiar with Artest in Chicago. Is it really unreasonable to believe that our franchise experts were not aware of not only what you were but most likely significantly more?

    So if he did everything you expected him to do based on his past history, how can it be anything remotely resembling his fault? After all, you would say Ron is just being Ron, no? So it would seem the only thing that wouldve satisfied you personally would be for him to turn over this complete new leaf-which youve repeated multiple times there was no way it was ever going to happen.

    So again-how can the blame or responsibility be cast in his direction? While you may be upset at him not having an epiphany since he was now playing for your favorite team, if anyone was/is in a position to appreciate how he cant be blamed, it should be you.

    But the conversation did get me thinking a bit as far as what was the 'ball' that did all the damage and when did it happen. So instead of dealing in 'revisionist history' as you and a couple others are tending to do, why don't we just take a stroll down memory lane and analyze what happened to our great franchise and when it happened. Maybe thats what you mean when it comes to wanting substance and adding something to the conversation.

    In the season of 99-2000 our team finished with a 56-26 record culminating in an NBA finals loss in 6 games to the might Lakers. This ended a 3 year stint with Bird as coach where they won nearly 70% of their games and advanced to the Conference finals the first two years and finally the NBA Finals in the summer of 2000.

    This, we would all have to agree, would be the pinnacle.

    So...what happened?

    Larry Bird resigned as head coach.

    Rik Smits retired. So did Chris Mullin.

    Mark Jackson was not retained.

    Dale Davis was trade for Jermaine Oneal.

    And on July 20, 2000-a day that probably should live in infamy when it comes to the Pacers franchise- Isiah Thomas was hired as head coach to replace Bird.

    Aug1, 2000-another day in infamy-the Pacers sign Austin Croshere to a 7 year, 51 million dollar extension and Jalen Rose to a 7 year, 93 million dollar extension. 144 million on two players. The Pacers also signed Reggie and Sam Perkins to much more reasonable contracts.


    The Pacers finish the 2000-01 season with a 41-41 record and lose in the first round of the playoffs.

    2001 offseason: Jamaal Tinsley is obtained. Derrick McKey left, Sam Perkins retired.

    54 games into the season, the Pacers are 26-28 when amidst controversy, alleged team chemistry issues and a general lack of anything positive they decide a massive overhaul is needed in the hopes of turning around a situation that is definitely heading in the wrong direction.

    On Feb. 19, 2002 Jalen Rose, Norm Richardson and Travis Best are traded to Chicago for Ron Artest, Brad Miller, Ron Mercer, and Kevin Ollie.

    The Pacers win the last 5 games to finish the season at 42-40 and again lose in the 1st round of the playoffs.

    They enter the following season(2002-03) with basically the same roster(added fred jones in the draft) they finished the previous season with following the blockbuster trade. Of note, they sign Bender, Artest and Foster to extensions. Bender and Artest sign deals for approx 42 million dollars each. Evidently with a chance to come together a bit they finish a very respectable 48-34, however again are unceremoniously knocked out of the playoffs in the 1st round.

    In the offseason, the Pacers bring Bird into the basketball operations fold and almost immediately lock up Jermaine Oneal to a max deal worth in excess of 120 million dollars.

    July 25, 2003 Brad Miller is traded to Sacramento for Scot Pollard because they couldnt afford to pay Miller.

    And soon thereafter, fire Isiah Thomas-Oneals mentor of sorts-and soon replace him with Rick Carlisle.


    The team responds by going a league best 61-21 in 2003-2004 and loses in the Eastern conference finals.

    July 16, 2004- Trade Oneals best buddy Al Harrington to Atlanta for Stephen Jackson.

    2004-05 Season starts with the team going 7-2...however in that 7th win of the season disaster strikes:

    November 19, 2004-another day that lives in infamy for Pacers fans-the brawl takes place

    The Pacers miraculously manage to finish the rest of the season near the .500 mark despite all the suspensions and injuries and make a spirited run in the playoffs seemingly motivated by Reggies impending retirement before they finally lose in the 2nd round.

    At the end of the season, Reggie does indeed retire as he said he would.

    July, 2005 Sign draft choice Danny Granger

    August, 2005 Sign Sarunas Jasikevicius

    After a tumultuous 9-4 start seemingly marred by numerous chemistry issues and following trade rumors, Artest says he thinks the team would be better off without him and requests a trade-something he later recants and apologizes 4-however the management deemed it was a point of no return and finally:

    Jan. 25, 2006 Pacers trade Artest to Kings for Peja. The Kings were out of the playoff race at the time of the trade, however, with the addition of Artest they went on a spirited run that took them into the playoffs where they gave the Spurs a run for the money. After the 9-4 start, the Pacers managed to finish at 41-41 and lost in the 1st round of the playoffs. And theyve yet to make the playoffs since.

    Meanwhile, Artest was traded to Houston where his team-despite losing Yao and Tmac, gave the World Champion Lakers their toughest test. Also of note, since his departure from the Pacers, while certainly not a saint, has not really been a part of any major problems and indeed Houston players said he was a welcome addition and Yao even said something to the effect that he was nothing like he expected-After expressing some concern initially when Ron first joined the Rockets.

    What does it all mean?

    We all know the franchise was at a crossroads during the summer of 2000.

    And I personally think that thats when all the problems really started. Probably with the coddling of Jalen which, in turn, started a dangerous precedent that would come back to haunt them when it came to their dealings with JO, Tinsley, Ron, Harrington, Jackson, etc. They appeared to go into a mode of letting the inmates run the asylum when it seemed they catered to Jalen by hiring Isiah.

    And if I had to pick one event or person to say it was the beginning of the end, I would say it was the hiring of Zeke. Now Donnie did that. So whos more to blame, him or Zeke? Who knows. But it spiralled downward from there and really the only time we saw something other than subpar basketball and saw any hope was when Ron WAS here.

    We were a .500 team before he arrived on the scene and have been a sub .500 team since he left. It was only while he was here that we appeared to be something close to where we were at during the late 90's.

    So, in conclusion, Ron wasnt the ball nor did he get the ball started. It was already in a free fall before he ever hit town. Nor did he destroy the franchise. It was worse before he got here and indeed after he left. Now did Ron make mistakes? Absolutely. Is he a high maintenance player, at best? Absolutely. But lets not attribute things to him that really have very little, if anything, to do with him or are in his control-like him being brought here or all the other mish mash of players that were assembled that made chemistry all but impossible and for a mentally weak person like Artest-far more likely for problems to arise.

    As for the Reggie comment. That isnt what Reggie said. Not sure if I or anyone else can maybe find a Utube or transcript of the comment, but I know for a fact those were not the words. In fact, I would guess its in the archives on this site.
    Last edited by cinotimz; 07-08-2009 at 11:19 AM.

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