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The Rules of Pacers Digest

Hello everyone,

Whether your are a long standing forum member or whether you have just registered today, it's a good idea to read and review the rules below so that you have a very good idea of what to expect when you come to Pacers Digest.

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Why do we do this? So that it's more difficult for spammers (be they human or robot) to post, and so users who are banned cannot immediately re-register and start dousing people with verbal flames.

Below are the rules of Pacers Digest. After you have read them, you will have a very good sense of where we are coming from, what we expect, what we don't want to see, and how we react to things.

Rule #1

Pacers Digest is intended to be a place to discuss basketball without having to deal with the kinds of behaviors or attitudes that distract people from sticking with the discussion of the topics at hand. These unwanted distractions can come in many forms, and admittedly it can sometimes be tricky to pin down each and every kind that can rear its ugly head, but we feel that the following examples and explanations cover at least a good portion of that ground and should at least give people a pretty good idea of the kinds of things we actively discourage:

"Anyone who __________ is a liar / a fool / an idiot / a blind homer / has their head buried in the sand / a blind hater / doesn't know basketball / doesn't watch the games"

"People with intelligence will agree with me when I say that __________"

"Only stupid people think / believe / do ___________"

"I can't wait to hear something from PosterX when he/she sees that **insert a given incident or current event that will have probably upset or disappointed PosterX here**"

"He/she is just delusional"

"This thread is stupid / worthless / embarrassing"

"I'm going to take a moment to point and / laugh at PosterX / GroupOfPeopleY who thought / believed *insert though/belief here*"

"Remember when PosterX said OldCommentY that no longer looks good? "

In general, if a comment goes from purely on topic to something 'ad hominem' (personal jabs, personal shots, attacks, flames, however you want to call it, towards a person, or a group of people, or a given city/state/country of people), those are most likely going to be found intolerable.

We also dissuade passive aggressive behavior. This can be various things, but common examples include statements that are basically meant to imply someone is either stupid or otherwise incapable of holding a rational conversation. This can include (but is not limited to) laughing at someone's conclusions rather than offering an honest rebuttal, asking people what game they were watching, or another common problem is Poster X will say "that player isn't that bad" and then Poster Y will say something akin to "LOL you think that player is good". We're not going to tolerate those kinds of comments out of respect for the community at large and for the sake of trying to just have an honest conversation.

Now, does the above cover absolutely every single kind of distraction that is unwanted? Probably not, but you should by now have a good idea of the general types of things we will be discouraging. The above examples are meant to give you a good feel for / idea of what we're looking for. If something new or different than the above happens to come along and results in the same problem (that being, any other attitude or behavior that ultimately distracts from actually just discussing the topic at hand, or that is otherwise disrespectful to other posters), we can and we will take action to curb this as well, so please don't take this to mean that if you managed to technically avoid saying something exactly like one of the above examples that you are then somehow off the hook.

That all having been said, our goal is to do so in a generally kind and respectful way, and that doesn't mean the moment we see something we don't like that somebody is going to be suspended or banned, either. It just means that at the very least we will probably say something about it, quite possibly snipping out the distracting parts of the post in question while leaving alone the parts that are actually just discussing the topics, and in the event of a repeating or excessive problem, then we will start issuing infractions to try to further discourage further repeat problems, and if it just never seems to improve, then finally suspensions or bans will come into play. We would prefer it never went that far, and most of the time for most of our posters, it won't ever have to.

A slip up every once and a while is pretty normal, but, again, when it becomes repetitive or excessive, something will be done. Something occasional is probably going to be let go (within reason), but when it starts to become habitual or otherwise a pattern, odds are very good that we will step in.

There's always a small minority that like to push people's buttons and/or test their own boundaries with regards to the administrators, and in the case of someone acting like that, please be aware that this is not a court of law, but a private website run by people who are simply trying to do the right thing as they see it. If we feel that you are a special case that needs to be dealt with in an exceptional way because your behavior isn't explicitly mirroring one of our above examples of what we generally discourage, we can and we will take atypical action to prevent this from continuing if you are not cooperative with us.

Also please be aware that you will not be given a pass simply by claiming that you were 'only joking,' because quite honestly, when someone really is just joking, for one thing most people tend to pick up on the joke, including the person or group that is the target of the joke, and for another thing, in the event where an honest joke gets taken seriously and it upsets or angers someone, the person who is truly 'only joking' will quite commonly go out of his / her way to apologize and will try to mend fences. People who are dishonest about their statements being 'jokes' do not do so, and in turn that becomes a clear sign of what is really going on. It's nothing new.

In any case, quite frankly, the overall quality and health of the entire forum's community is more important than any one troublesome user will ever be, regardless of exactly how a problem is exhibiting itself, and if it comes down to us having to make a choice between you versus the greater health and happiness of the entire community, the community of this forum will win every time.

Lastly, there are also some posters, who are generally great contributors and do not otherwise cause any problems, who sometimes feel it's their place to provoke or to otherwise 'mess with' that small minority of people described in the last paragraph, and while we possibly might understand why you might feel you WANT to do something like that, the truth is we can't actually tolerate that kind of behavior from you any more than we can tolerate the behavior from them. So if we feel that you are trying to provoke those other posters into doing or saying something that will get themselves into trouble, then we will start to view you as a problem as well, because of the same reason as before: The overall health of the forum comes first, and trying to stir the pot with someone like that doesn't help, it just makes it worse. Some will simply disagree with this philosophy, but if so, then so be it because ultimately we have to do what we think is best so long as it's up to us.

If you see a problem that we haven't addressed, the best and most appropriate course for a forum member to take here is to look over to the left of the post in question. See underneath that poster's name, avatar, and other info, down where there's a little triangle with an exclamation point (!) in it? Click that. That allows you to report the post to the admins so we can definitely notice it and give it a look to see what we feel we should do about it. Beyond that, obviously it's human nature sometimes to want to speak up to the poster in question who has bothered you, but we would ask that you try to refrain from doing so because quite often what happens is two or more posters all start going back and forth about the original offending post, and suddenly the entire thread is off topic or otherwise derailed. So while the urge to police it yourself is understandable, it's best to just report it to us and let us handle it. Thank you!

All of the above is going to be subject to a case by case basis, but generally and broadly speaking, this should give everyone a pretty good idea of how things will typically / most often be handled.

Rule #2

If the actions of an administrator inspire you to make a comment, criticism, or express a concern about it, there is a wrong place and a couple of right places to do so.

The wrong place is to do so in the original thread in which the administrator took action. For example, if a post gets an infraction, or a post gets deleted, or a comment within a larger post gets clipped out, in a thread discussing Paul George, the wrong thing to do is to distract from the discussion of Paul George by adding your off topic thoughts on what the administrator did.

The right places to do so are:

A) Start a thread about the specific incident you want to talk about on the Feedback board. This way you are able to express yourself in an area that doesn't throw another thread off topic, and this way others can add their two cents as well if they wish, and additionally if there's something that needs to be said by the administrators, that is where they will respond to it.

B) Send a private message to the administrators, and they can respond to you that way.

If this is done the wrong way, those comments will be deleted, and if it's a repeating problem then it may also receive an infraction as well.

Rule #3

If a poster is bothering you, and an administrator has not or will not deal with that poster to the extent that you would prefer, you have a powerful tool at your disposal, one that has recently been upgraded and is now better than ever: The ability to ignore a user.

When you ignore a user, you will unfortunately still see some hints of their existence (nothing we can do about that), however, it does the following key things:

A) Any post they make will be completely invisible as you scroll through a thread.

B) The new addition to this feature: If someone QUOTES a user you are ignoring, you do not have to read who it was, or what that poster said, unless you go out of your way to click on a link to find out who it is and what they said.

To utilize this feature, from any page on Pacers Digest, scroll to the top of the page, look to the top right where it says 'Settings' and click that. From the settings page, look to the left side of the page where it says 'My Settings', and look down from there until you see 'Edit Ignore List' and click that. From here, it will say 'Add a Member to Your List...' Beneath that, click in the text box to the right of 'User Name', type in or copy & paste the username of the poster you are ignoring, and once their name is in the box, look over to the far right and click the 'Okay' button. All done!

Rule #4

Regarding infractions, currently they carry a value of one point each, and that point will expire in 31 days. If at any point a poster is carrying three points at the same time, that poster will be suspended until the oldest of the three points expires.

Rule #5

When you share or paste content or articles from another website, you must include the URL/link back to where you found it, who wrote it, and what website it's from. Said content will be removed if this doesn't happen.

An example:

If I copy and paste an article from the Indianapolis Star website, I would post something like this:

http://www.linktothearticlegoeshere.com/article
Title of the Article
Author's Name
Indianapolis Star

Rule #6

We cannot tolerate illegal videos on Pacers Digest. This means do not share any links to them, do not mention any websites that host them or link to them, do not describe how to find them in any way, and do not ask about them. Posts doing anything of the sort will be removed, the offenders will be contacted privately, and if the problem becomes habitual, you will be suspended, and if it still persists, you will probably be banned.

The legal means of watching or listening to NBA games are NBA League Pass Broadband (for US, or for International; both cost money) and NBA Audio League Pass (which is free). Look for them on NBA.com.

Rule #7

Provocative statements in a signature, or as an avatar, or as the 'tagline' beneath a poster's username (where it says 'Member' or 'Administrator' by default, if it is not altered) are an unwanted distraction that will more than likely be removed on sight. There can be shades of gray to this, but in general this could be something political or religious that is likely going to provoke or upset people, or otherwise something that is mean-spirited at the expense of a poster, a group of people, or a population.

It may or may not go without saying, but this goes for threads and posts as well, particularly when it's not made on the off-topic board (Market Square).

We do make exceptions if we feel the content is both innocuous and unlikely to cause social problems on the forum (such as wishing someone a Merry Christmas or a Happy Easter), and we also also make exceptions if such topics come up with regards to a sports figure (such as the Lance Stephenson situation bringing up discussions of domestic abuse and the law, or when Jason Collins came out as gay and how that lead to some discussion about gay rights).

However, once the discussion seems to be more/mostly about the political issues instead of the sports figure or his specific situation, the thread is usually closed.

Rule #8

We prefer self-restraint and/or modesty when making jokes or off topic comments in a sports discussion thread. They can be fun, but sometimes they derail or distract from a topic, and we don't want to see that happen. If we feel it is a problem, we will either delete or move those posts from the thread.

Rule #9

Generally speaking, we try to be a "PG-13" rated board, and we don't want to see sexual content or similarly suggestive content. Vulgarity is a more muddled issue, though again we prefer things to lean more towards "PG-13" than "R". If we feel things have gone too far, we will step in.

Rule #10

We like small signatures, not big signatures. The bigger the signature, the more likely it is an annoying or distracting signature.

Rule #11

Do not advertise anything without talking about it with the administrators first. This includes advertising with your signature, with your avatar, through private messaging, and/or by making a thread or post.
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A Casual Analysis of all Pacers Players, Including Best and Worst All-Pacers Teams (Starts, Best Seasons, Opinions)

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  • A Casual Analysis of all Pacers Players, Including Best and Worst All-Pacers Teams (Starts, Best Seasons, Opinions)

    Statistical Analysis of All Pacers Players

    The discussion of the worst starting Pacers ever inspired me to dig deeper. Now it's 11 AM and I'm not sure where the night went. That said, I've seen how far down the rabbit hole goes, and will share my results. I started a new thread as I wanted to incorporate more than just the worst, but rather all Pacers. This came about because I wanted some Pacer related numbers that I couldn't find anywhere. I crunched all of the seasons in a spreadsheet and regurgitated them here.
    • Section 1 - Listing of all Pacers Players by position including number of starts
    • Section 2 - Ranking of all starters by position
    • Section 3 - All time best and worst Pacers squads (10 game starters only)

    If you wish to skip over the stats, information, and methods, you can scroll down to see my three All Pacers Teams as well as the two worst Starting Pacers teams.

    The statistics for this study were gathered from basketball-reference.com. Additional info found on wikipedia, pacers.com, nba.com and youtube.

    This is only for the Pacers during their NBA years (1976-2009). Positions are listed as G, G-F, F-G, F,F-C, C-F, and C. Games Started was not a listed stat before the 81-82 season, at least on the sites I used. An asterisk has been placed next to players who I do not have complete information on. If there is an asterisk, I will include the year with the highest mpg. For the purposes of determining if someone was a starter during those years, I'll include those with 20+ mpg

    I'm not a basketball expert by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I'm just a bored fan waiting for the NFL season to start. I hope to generate discussion, provide my research to others, and see what I've missed. At first I had to break this up into 3 messages, but I've got it slim enough it can fit as just one. Was having a problem with getting the tables to show correctly.

    ----------------------

    Section 1 - Games Started, by Position
    Minutes per game for best year in parenthesis() where needed.

    Center
    Rik Smits 792
    Steve Stipanovich 365
    Brad Miller 100
    Greg Dreiling 69
    Scot Pollard 52
    Roy Hibbert 42
    David Harrison 33
    Erick Dampier 21
    Rasho Nesterovic 19
    Zan Tabak 14
    Granville Waiters 13
    Dwayne Schintzius 8
    Primoz Brezec 5
    Bruno Sundov 4
    John Edwards 1
    Courtney Sims 0
    Greg Kite 0
    Jawann Oldham 0

    Center-Power Forward
    Herb Williams 496
    LaSalle Thompson 219
    Clemon Johnson 49* (25.1)
    James Edwards * (31.0)
    Dave Robisch * (26.0)
    Tom Owens 40
    Rick Robey * (19.7)
    Len Elmore * (19.2)
    Stuart Gray 4
    Scott Haskin 2
    Brad Branson 2
    Carlos Rogers 1
    Mark West 1

    Power Forward-Center
    Jermaine O'Neal 497
    Jeff Foster 339
    Derrick McKey 304
    Wayman Tisdale 137
    Detlef Schrempf 98
    George Johnson 88* (28.0)
    Antonio Davis 60
    Sam Perkins 41
    Mike Bantom 37* (33.8)
    George McGinnis 4* (28.0)
    Dan Roundfield * (30.7)
    Darnell Hillman * (28.1)
    Ron Behagen * (22.2)
    Russ Schoene 5
    Adrian Caldwell 1
    Brent Scott 0
    John Williams 0
    Lari Ketner 0

    Forward
    Dale Davis 617
    Chuck Person 461
    Clark Kellogg 241
    Danny Granger 220
    Ron Artest 185
    Troy Murphy 165
    Stephen Jackson 162
    Al Harrington 127
    Austin Croshere 86
    Louis Orr 41* (24.4)
    Sam Mitchell 31
    Jonathan Bender 27
    James Jones 24
    Brandon Rush 19
    Bill Garnett 15
    Marty Byrnes 12
    Wil Jones * (33.9)
    Alex English * (33.3)
    Mickey Johnson * (32.3)
    Devin Durrant 8
    Kenny Williams 7
    Malik Sealy 6
    Shawne Williams 6
    Ike Diogu 3
    Maceo Baston 2
    Britton Johnsen 1
    Kenton Edelin 1
    Anthony Frederick 0
    Bill Martin 0
    Brian Rowsom 0
    Bruce Kuczenski 0
    Calvin Natt 0
    Darvin Ham 0
    Dyron Nix 0
    Etdrick Bohannon 0
    Greg Kelser 0
    Jerome Lane 0
    Josh McRoberts 0
    Josh Powell 0
    Leroy Combs 0
    Marcus Haislip 0
    Mark Pope 0
    Mark Strickland 0
    Michael Brooks 0
    Pete Verhoeven 0
    Samaki Walker 0
    Terry Mills 0
    Tremaine Fowlkes 0
    Corky Calhoun * (16.4)
    Mel Bennett * (13.6)
    Steve Green * (13.1)
    Clyde Mayes * (10.5)
    Tom Abernethy * (8.9)
    Rudy Hackett * (7.6)
    Tony Zeno * (7.4)
    Dick Miller * (6.8)

    Forward-Guard
    Mike Dunleavy 139
    Chris Mullin 134
    Adrian Dantley * (41.2)
    Peja Stojakovic 40
    Ron Anderson 28
    Tony Brown 26
    Duane Ferrell 25
    Mike Sanders 20
    Michael Curry 7
    Ricky Pierce 2
    Eddie Johnson 1
    Gerald Paddio 1
    Sean Green 0

    Guard-Forward
    Reggie Miller 1304
    John Long 149
    Billy Knight 73* (40.0)
    Earl Tatum * (32.6)
    Marquis Daniels 48
    George McCloud 26
    Fred Jones 19
    Brook Steppe 13
    Kevin McKenna 13
    Randy Wittman 11
    Dudley Bradley * (24.7)
    Ron Mercer 4
    Rawle Marshall 2
    Tracy Jackson 0
    Vincent Askew 0
    Bob Carrington * (17.7)
    Johnny Neumann * (10.8)

    Guard
    Vern Fleming 520
    Mark Jackson 390
    Jamaal Tinsley 365
    Jalen Rose 212
    Jerry Sichting 163* (31.2)
    Micheal Williams 113
    Pooh Richardson 97
    Anthony Johnson 96
    Butch Carter 82
    Don Buse 78* (30.8)
    Clint Richardson 75
    Haywoode Workman 72
    Travis Best 71
    Johnny Davis 70* (32.5)
    Jim Thomas 67
    Jarrett Jack 53
    T.J. Ford 49
    Kenny Anderson 31
    Terence Stansbury 31
    John Duren 24
    Travis Diener 21
    Ronald Murray 17
    Sarunas Jasikevicius 16
    Kareem Rush 15
    Scott Skiles 15
    Erick Strickland 10
    Ricky Sobers * (34.9)
    John Williamson * (34.5)
    Andre Owens 7
    Keith McLeod 7
    Stephen Graham 6
    Bryan Warrick 5
    Darrell Armstrong 4
    Dwayne McClain 4
    Byron Scott 3
    Eddie Gill 3
    Quinn Buckner 3
    Fred Hoiberg 2
    Malik Sealy 2
    Sidney Lowe 2
    Jamison Brewer 1
    Jerome Allen 1
    Jose Slaughter 1
    Byron Dinkins 0
    Everette Stephens 0
    Guy Morgan 0
    Kevin Ollie 0
    Kyle Macy 0
    Lester Conner 0
    Norm Richardson 0
    Orien Greene 0
    Ralph Jackson 0
    Raymond Townsend 0
    Richard Morton 0
    Rickey Green 0
    Sedric Toney 0
    Tim Hardaway 0
    Tyus Edney 0
    Walker Russell 0
    Freddie Lewis * (17.3)
    Phil Chenier * (16.5)
    Joe Hassett * (15.3)
    Mike Flynn * (13.5)
    Kevin Stacom * (13.0)
    Wayne Radford * (12.5)
    Ron Carter * (9.0)
    Brad Davis * (8.6)
    Darrell Elston * (8.0)
    Kenny Natt * (7.8)
    Bobby Wilson * (7.2)
    Willie Smith * (7.0)
    Jerome Anderson * (6.1)
    John Kuester * (4.2)

    -----

    Section 2 - Ranking each Player by Position

    Here are my breakdowns for each position (G, G-F, F-G, F, F-C, C-F, C)

    I have included their best season, not their average. Averages didn't give a very good reading, especially for players who were brought along as rookies.

    Warning: These rankings are my opinion. Take that as you will.

    Guards PPG RPG APG SPG BPG MPG
    1. Mark Jackson 10.0 3.8 7.8 1.2 0.1 32.6
    2. Vern Fleming 14.3 3.9 7.4 1.1 0.1 35.1
    3. Jalen Rose 20.5 5.0 6.0 0.9 0.6 40.9
    4. Don Buse 8.0 3.3 8.5 3.5 0.2 36.4
    5. Ricky Sobers 18.2 4.1 7.4 2.2 0.3 38.2
    6. Micheal Williams 15.0 3.6 8.2 2.9 0.3 34.8
    7. Jamaal Tinsley 15.4 4.0 6.4 2.0 0.3 32.5
    8. Pooh Richardson 10.4 3.6 7.7 1.3 0.2 32.4
    9. Johnny Davis 18.3 2.4 5.7 1.2 0.3 37.6
    10. John Williamson 20.7 2.5 3.7 1.6 0.2 35.2
    11. Haywoode Workman 7.7 3.1 6.2 1.3 0.1 26.4
    12. Travis Best 11.9 2.9 6.1 1.4 0.1 31.9
    13. Anthony Johnson 9.2 2.2 4.3 0.8 0.3 26.4
    14. Jarrett Jack 13.1 3.4 4.1 1.1 0.2 33.1
    15. T.J. Ford 14.9 3.5 5.3 1.2 0.2 30.5
    16. Butch Carter 13.4 2.1 2.8 1.8 0.2 28.0
    17. Scott Skiles 6.8 1.9 4.9 0.8 0.0 19.6
    18. Jerry Sichting 11.5 2.1 5.7 1.1 0.1 31.2
    19. Travis Diener 6.9 1.7 3.8 0.5 0.1 20.5
    20. Clint Richardson 9.7 3.1 4.5 0.7 0.1 27.1
    21. Ronald Murray 11.0 2.0 3.5 1.1 0.1 22.9
    22. Jim Thomas 11.1 3.3 2.9 1.0 0.1 25.7
    23. Terence Stansbury 7.1 1.5 1.7 0.6 0.2 17.3
    24. Sarunas Jasikevicius 7.4 1.3 3.0 0.4 0.0 17.9
    25. Kareem Rush 8.3 2.4 1.3 0.6 0.3 21.2
    26. Erick Strickland 6.5 2.0 2.9 0.5 0.1 18.0
    27. Kenny Anderson 6.0 1.8 2.8 0.6 0.1 20.6
    28. John Duren 4.5 1.3 2.4 0.8 0.1 17.5
    Guards:
    Obviously Mark Jackson is at the top of this one. Vern was a distributor for many years (84-95). Don Buse led the league in steals the Pacers first year in the league. Tinsley had some good years before he became a persona non grata. A few surprises to me here, as I remembered Scott Skiles being better than he was with us. That must have been after we got rid of him. I'm hopeful that our current guys, or someone we draft, moves up this list.


    Guard-Forwards PPG RPG APG SPG BPG MPG
    1. Reggie Miller 24.6 3.6 3.8 1.3 0.2 38.9
    2. Billy Knight 26.6 7.5 3.3 1.5 0.2 40.0
    3. John Long 15.2 2.7 3.2 1.2 0.1 28.3
    4. Earl Tatum 14.4 3.6 4.0 1.8 0.5 32.6
    5. Marquis Daniels 13.6 4.6 2.1 1.1 0.5 31.5
    6. Fred Jones 10.6 3.1 2.5 0.8 0.4 29.5
    7. Dudley Bradley 8.4 2.7 3.1 2.6 0.6 24.7
    8. George McCloud 7.2 2.6 2.5 0.7 0.1 19.2
    9. Brook Steppe 7.0 2.0 1.3 0.6 0.1 14.0
    10. Kevin McKenna 6.3 1.6 1.9 0.8 0.1 15.1
    11. Randy Wittman 5.2 1.6 2.4 0.4 0.1 21.3

    Guard-Forwards:
    Reggie's category. Billy Knight played well for the Pacers in two separate stints, going back to the ABA days. Wittman played 4 years here('88 - '92), with very low mpg. His only year with double digit minutes still produced the lowest score here.

    Forward-Guards        PPG    RPG    APG    SPG    BPG     MPG
    1. Adrian Dantley 26.5 9.4 2.8 2.1 0.7 41.2
    2. Mike Dunleavy 19.1 5.2 3.5 1.0 0.4 36.0
    3. Chris Mullin 11.3 3.0 2.3 1.2 0.5 26.5
    4. Peja Stojakovic 19.5 6.3 1.7 0.7 0.2 36.4
    5. Ron Anderson 10.4 4.1 2.3 0.9 0.1 24.5
    6. Tony Brown 6.6 3.5 1.9 0.7 0.1 19.3
    7. Mike Sanders 6.2 2.8 1.1 0.5 0.3 18.7
    8. Duane Ferrell 6.4 2.3 1.1 0.6 0.1 18.0

    Forward-Guards:
    Dantley played 23 games for the Pacers during the 1977-78 season, and then we traded him. Awesome. Some recent names at the top, not so much at the bottom. It is important to note that I, like many on this board, have an unfair bias towards more recent players. I did what I could to avoid that here, but the numbers spoke pretty convincingly. Sanders and Ferrell had 3 "meh" years here, but got enough starts to make the list.

    Forwards              PPG     RPG    APG    SPG    BPG     MPG
    1. Clark Kellogg 20.1 10.6 2.8 1.7 0.5 34.1
    2. Dale Davis 11.7 10.9 1.5 0.7 1.6 34.7
    3. Danny Granger 25.8 5.1 2.7 1.0 1.4 36.2
    4. Chuck Person 21.6 6.5 3.6 1.0 0.2 37.7
    5. Ron Artest 24.6 6.4 3.1 1.7 0.9 41.6
    6. Mickey Johnson 19.1 8.3 4.2 1.9 1.4 32.3
    7. Troy Murphy 14.3 11.8 2.4 0.8 0.5 34.0
    8. Alex English 16.0 8.1 3.3 0.9 1.0 33.3
    9. Stephen Jackson 18.7 4.9 2.3 1.3 0.3 35.4
    10. Al Harrington 15.9 6.3 1.4 0.7 0.3 33.6
    11. Austin Croshere 10.3 6.4 1.1 0.5 0.7 23.3
    12. Wil Jones 13.0 7.6 2.4 1.3 1.0 33.9
    13. Brandon Rush 8.1 3.1 0.9 0.5 0.5 24.0
    14. Louis Orr 11.5 4.1 1.7 0.7 0.3 24.4
    15. Jonathan Bender 7.4 3.1 0.8 0.2 0.6 21.1
    16. Sam Mitchell 7.2 3.1 0.9 0.3 0.1 17.3
    17. James Jones 4.9 2.3 0.8 0.4 0.4 17.7
    18. Bill Garnett 6.4 4.4 1.0 0.4 0.2 17.3
    19. Marty Byrnes 4.9 2.4 2.2 0.5 0.1 18.0


    Forwards:
    Clark Kellogg, if only he'd stayed healthy. Pretty good company at the top of this list, and I think Danny will be on top when it's all said and done. Rush may look low, but he really struggled at the beginning of his rookie season.

    Power-Forward Centers  PPG     RPG    APG    SPG    BPG     MPG
    1. Jermaine O'Neal 20.1 10.0 2.1 0.8 2.6 35.7
    2. Derrick McKey 12.0 5.3 4.3 1.5 0.6 34.4
    3. Detlef Schrempf 19.1 9.5 6.0 1.0 0.3 37.8
    4. George McGinnis 13.2 8.5 4.0 1.1 0.2 28.0
    5. Wayman Tisdale 16.0 6.5 1.6 0.7 0.7 27.6
    6. Dan Roundfield 13.4 10.2 2.5 1.0 1.9 30.7
    7.Antonio Davis 10.5 7.3 0.8 0.5 1.0 28.5
    8. Jeff Foster 7.0 9.0 0.7 0.8 0.2 26.1
    9. Mike Bantom 15.3 7.4 2.9 1.2 0.6 33.8
    10. George Johnson 13.0 5.7 2.4 1.0 0.6 25.6
    11. Sam Perkins 6.6 3.6 0.8 0.4 0.4 20.0
    12. Darnell Hillman 10.7 8.5 2.0 1.2 1.3 28.1
    13. Ron Behagen 11.2 6.5 1.3 0.6 0.4 22.2


    Power Forward - Center:
    Jermaine gave us his best years, and then some. If I was judging ABA, and not just NBA, McGinnis would be on top here. What we got from him from 80 - 82 was the tail end of the ABA MVP, scoring champion, and all-time team member. Derrick's contributions didn't always show on the stat sheet. Was impressed with the numbers that Roundfield put up in the late seventies.

    Center-Power Forwards  PPG    RPG    APG    SPG    BPG     MPG
    1. Herb Williams 19.9 9.1 2.2 0.6 2.4 35.5
    2. James Edwards 16.7 8.5 1.1 0.7 1.3 31.0
    3. LaSalle Thompson 12.5 9.9 1.1 1.0 1.2 31.9
    4. Dave Robisch 11.9 6.9 2.0 0.7 0.5 24.6
    5. Clemon Johnson 9.7 6.3 2.3 1.0 1.2 23.8
    6. Tom Owens 10.5 5.0 1.7 0.6 0.5 21.6


    Center - Power Forward:
    Herb Williams played for some of our awful teams, but he stayed healthy and is all over the Pacers all-time stat list. Edwards was solid during our early NBA years. Tank had a low scoring average, but was an enforcer during a physical period in basketball.

    Centers                PPG    RPG    APG    SPG    BPG     MPG
    1. Rik Smits 17.9 7.7 1.4 0.5 1.0 30.5
    2. Steve Stipanovich 13.2 8.3 2.2 1.3 1.2 34.1
    3. Brad Miller 13.1 8.3 2.6 0.9 0.6 31.1
    4. Roy Hibbert 7.1 3.5 0.7 0.3 1.1 14.4
    5. Rasho Nesterovic 6.8 3.4 1.6 0.4 0.5 17.3
    6. Erick Dampier 5.1 4.1 0.6 0.3 1.0 14.6
    7. Scot Pollard 3.8 4.8 0.5 0.8 0.4 17.1
    8. David Harrison 6.1 3.1 0.3 0.4 1.3 17.7
    9. Zan Tabak 3.9 3.9 0.6 0.2 0.5 14.1
    10. Granville Waiters 3.6 2.9 0.8 0.3 1.1 13.3
    11. Greg Dreiling 3.5 3.5 0.7 0.3 0.4 14.1

    Center:
    The Dunkin' Dutchman gave us stability in the middle. Stipo was supposed to be the next big thing before his injury. Both Brad and most of this board wish he'd never left Indy. Hibbert seems high here, especially joining his fellow foul champion Harrison, but he's done fine considering. Some stinkers at the bottom of this one. Waiters and Tabak pulled down some monster numbers. Dreiling's are even worse. In seven seasons with the Pacers, the above is as good as it got.


    Section 3 - Choosing Best and Worst All-Pacer teams
    Well, this started off trying to figure out what the worst starting 5 we could put together was. Now it turns out, I'm just as interested in the top good team. Of course putting Ron Artest, Harrison, Tinsley, and the other nutcases would be fun, but I'm looking at pure production. This was not based on team chemistry, but rather it is similar to how First Team NBA is chosen. I could very well get some of these positions wrong, and I can't imagine anyone agreeing 100%. I welcome any critiques, corrections, or disagreements.

    All Pacers Squad
    First Team
    PG Mark Jackson
    SG Reggie Miller
    SF Adrian Dantley
    PF Clark Kellogg
    C Rik Smits

    Second Team
    PG Vern Fleming
    SG Billy Knight
    SF Danny Granger
    PF Dale Davis
    C Jermaine O'Neal

    Third Team
    PG Don Buse
    SG Jalen Rose
    SF Derek McKey
    PF Detlef Schremph
    C George McGinnis


    The Worst All-Pacers Starter Team
    First Team
    PG John Duren
    SG Randy Wittman
    SF Marty Byrnes
    PF Zan Tabak
    C Greg Dreiling

    Second Team
    PG Terence Stansbury
    SG Duane Ferrell
    SF Bill Garnett
    PF David Harrison
    C Granville Waiters

    Now, if you want to up the threshold on number of starts for the worst team to 20, you don't lose much. Stretch it out to 40, and you're looking at something closer to:

    40+
    First Team
    PG Jim Thomas
    SG Clint Richardson
    SF Louis Orr
    PF Tom Owens/ Clemon Johnson
    C Greg Dreiling (captain)

    I'm not saying that I'm right, of course. Several of these guys were playing before I could really appreciate them live. I appreciate any of you that read this whole thing. I'll be happy to explain my choices, hear other opinions, and admit I was wrong.

    Cheers,

  • #2
    Re: A Casual Analysis of all Pacers Players, Including Best and Worst All-Pacers Teams (Starts, Best Seasons, Opinions)

    It's just good to see Zan Tabak's name again. Downright shame that Bruno Sundov and Primoz Brezec couldn't make a "worst" team. And I'll tell you who I actually liked: Jamison Brewer. Nowhere to be found. Appreciate the work man!

    Comment


    • #3
      Re: A Casual Analysis of all Pacers Players, Including Best and Worst All-Pacers Teams (Starts, Best Seasons, Opinions)

      Dang E I give you respect for putting all that together. I thought i was working hard, then you go and spend all night putting that together. Man I am impressed. Mine is more of a voting based on people's opinions, but I like your a lot. Way to go!
      JOB is a silly man

      Comment


      • #4
        Re: A Casual Analysis of all Pacers Players, Including Best and Worst All-Pacers Teams (Starts, Best Seasons, Opinions)

        Thanks for all the effort putting that together. But no Mel Daniels ?
        No Rajah Brown ? No Freddie Lewis ?

        I see others from the old, ABA days listed, so that can't be it.

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        • #5
          Re: A Casual Analysis of all Pacers Players, Including Best and Worst All-Pacers Teams (Starts, Best Seasons, Opinions)

          Shouldn't Dale be in the "Forwards" and not "Forward-Guards" section?

          Nice work though. Interesting stuff.

          Edit: Somewhere in Chicago there is a certain poster steaming that Chuck isn't on one of the top 3 all time teams.

          Comment


          • #6
            Re: A Casual Analysis of all Pacers Players, Including Best and Worst All-Pacers Teams (Starts, Best Seasons, Opinions)

            Originally posted by ESutt7 View Post
            It's just good to see Zan Tabak's name again. Downright shame that Bruno Sundov and Primoz Brezec couldn't make a "worst" team. And I'll tell you who I actually liked: Jamison Brewer. Nowhere to be found. Appreciate the work man!
            Yeah, this wasn't necessarily the worst group to ever lace up (or put on a suit) for the Pacers. Jamison Brewer had 1 career start, where Zan Tabak managed to get 14. Cut off was arbitrarily set at 10.

            Originally posted by jhondog28 View Post
            Dang E I give you respect for putting all that together. I thought i was working hard, then you go and spend all night putting that together. Man I am impressed. Mine is more of a voting based on people's opinions, but I like your a lot. Way to go!
            I like your vote threads. Already weighed in on coach, will consult the sheet for the rest. I was trying to make a similar decision, but just didn't have the numbers for half of the guys. Other guys I remember being better or worse than they were because of how they flourished or failed once they left the team.

            Originally posted by Tiny Archibald View Post
            Thanks for all the effort putting that together. But no Mel Daniels? No Rajah Brown? No Freddie Lewis?

            I see others from the old, ABA days listed, so that can't be it.
            Because of the limited availabilty of the "Games Started" stat, I only used NBA games. Mel never played for the NBA Pacers, most the pity. Everyone above played for us post-ABA merger. In retrospect, I wish I had compiled the whole history onto the spreadsheet before number crunching.

            Originally posted by Adam1987 View Post
            Shouldn't Dale be in the "Forwards" and not "Forward-Guards" section?

            Nice work though. Interesting stuff.

            Edit: Somewhere in Chicago there is a certain poster steaming that Chuck isn't on one of the top 3 all time teams.
            Dale is under forwards... though the formatting may make it look like he was in the previous section. I posted a wrap up for each one, and it looks like a section header at a casual glance.

            I had trouble keeping the Rifleman off the list too. It could easily be argued that he belongs there over Derrick McKey. I find that more often than not I agree with that certain Chicago poster, and I'd be intrigued to see what he has to say.

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