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Thread: A Casual Analysis of all Pacers Players, Including Best and Worst All-Pacers Teams (Starts, Best Seasons, Opinions)

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    Default A Casual Analysis of all Pacers Players, Including Best and Worst All-Pacers Teams (Starts, Best Seasons, Opinions)

    Statistical Analysis of All Pacers Players

    The discussion of the worst starting Pacers ever inspired me to dig deeper. Now it's 11 AM and I'm not sure where the night went. That said, I've seen how far down the rabbit hole goes, and will share my results. I started a new thread as I wanted to incorporate more than just the worst, but rather all Pacers. This came about because I wanted some Pacer related numbers that I couldn't find anywhere. I crunched all of the seasons in a spreadsheet and regurgitated them here.

    • Section 1 - Listing of all Pacers Players by position including number of starts
    • Section 2 - Ranking of all starters by position
    • Section 3 - All time best and worst Pacers squads (10 game starters only)

    If you wish to skip over the stats, information, and methods, you can scroll down to see my three All Pacers Teams as well as the two worst Starting Pacers teams.

    The statistics for this study were gathered from basketball-reference.com. Additional info found on wikipedia, pacers.com, nba.com and youtube.

    This is only for the Pacers during their NBA years (1976-2009). Positions are listed as G, G-F, F-G, F,F-C, C-F, and C. Games Started was not a listed stat before the 81-82 season, at least on the sites I used. An asterisk has been placed next to players who I do not have complete information on. If there is an asterisk, I will include the year with the highest mpg. For the purposes of determining if someone was a starter during those years, I'll include those with 20+ mpg

    I'm not a basketball expert by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, I'm just a bored fan waiting for the NFL season to start. I hope to generate discussion, provide my research to others, and see what I've missed. At first I had to break this up into 3 messages, but I've got it slim enough it can fit as just one. Was having a problem with getting the tables to show correctly.

    ----------------------

    Section 1 - Games Started, by Position
    Minutes per game for best year in parenthesis() where needed.

    Center
    Rik Smits 792
    Steve Stipanovich 365
    Brad Miller 100
    Greg Dreiling 69
    Scot Pollard 52
    Roy Hibbert 42
    David Harrison 33
    Erick Dampier 21
    Rasho Nesterovic 19
    Zan Tabak 14
    Granville Waiters 13
    Dwayne Schintzius 8
    Primoz Brezec 5
    Bruno Sundov 4
    John Edwards 1
    Courtney Sims 0
    Greg Kite 0
    Jawann Oldham 0

    Center-Power Forward
    Herb Williams 496
    LaSalle Thompson 219
    Clemon Johnson 49* (25.1)
    James Edwards * (31.0)
    Dave Robisch * (26.0)
    Tom Owens 40
    Rick Robey * (19.7)
    Len Elmore * (19.2)
    Stuart Gray 4
    Scott Haskin 2
    Brad Branson 2
    Carlos Rogers 1
    Mark West 1

    Power Forward-Center
    Jermaine O'Neal 497
    Jeff Foster 339
    Derrick McKey 304
    Wayman Tisdale 137
    Detlef Schrempf 98
    George Johnson 88* (28.0)
    Antonio Davis 60
    Sam Perkins 41
    Mike Bantom 37* (33.8)
    George McGinnis 4* (28.0)
    Dan Roundfield * (30.7)
    Darnell Hillman * (28.1)
    Ron Behagen * (22.2)
    Russ Schoene 5
    Adrian Caldwell 1
    Brent Scott 0
    John Williams 0
    Lari Ketner 0

    Forward
    Dale Davis 617
    Chuck Person 461
    Clark Kellogg 241
    Danny Granger 220
    Ron Artest 185
    Troy Murphy 165
    Stephen Jackson 162
    Al Harrington 127
    Austin Croshere 86
    Louis Orr 41* (24.4)
    Sam Mitchell 31
    Jonathan Bender 27
    James Jones 24
    Brandon Rush 19
    Bill Garnett 15
    Marty Byrnes 12
    Wil Jones * (33.9)
    Alex English * (33.3)
    Mickey Johnson * (32.3)
    Devin Durrant 8
    Kenny Williams 7
    Malik Sealy 6
    Shawne Williams 6
    Ike Diogu 3
    Maceo Baston 2
    Britton Johnsen 1
    Kenton Edelin 1
    Anthony Frederick 0
    Bill Martin 0
    Brian Rowsom 0
    Bruce Kuczenski 0
    Calvin Natt 0
    Darvin Ham 0
    Dyron Nix 0
    Etdrick Bohannon 0
    Greg Kelser 0
    Jerome Lane 0
    Josh McRoberts 0
    Josh Powell 0
    Leroy Combs 0
    Marcus Haislip 0
    Mark Pope 0
    Mark Strickland 0
    Michael Brooks 0
    Pete Verhoeven 0
    Samaki Walker 0
    Terry Mills 0
    Tremaine Fowlkes 0
    Corky Calhoun * (16.4)
    Mel Bennett * (13.6)
    Steve Green * (13.1)
    Clyde Mayes * (10.5)
    Tom Abernethy * (8.9)
    Rudy Hackett * (7.6)
    Tony Zeno * (7.4)
    Dick Miller * (6.8)

    Forward-Guard
    Mike Dunleavy 139
    Chris Mullin 134
    Adrian Dantley * (41.2)
    Peja Stojakovic 40
    Ron Anderson 28
    Tony Brown 26
    Duane Ferrell 25
    Mike Sanders 20
    Michael Curry 7
    Ricky Pierce 2
    Eddie Johnson 1
    Gerald Paddio 1
    Sean Green 0

    Guard-Forward
    Reggie Miller 1304
    John Long 149
    Billy Knight 73* (40.0)
    Earl Tatum * (32.6)
    Marquis Daniels 48
    George McCloud 26
    Fred Jones 19
    Brook Steppe 13
    Kevin McKenna 13
    Randy Wittman 11
    Dudley Bradley * (24.7)
    Ron Mercer 4
    Rawle Marshall 2
    Tracy Jackson 0
    Vincent Askew 0
    Bob Carrington * (17.7)
    Johnny Neumann * (10.8)

    Guard
    Vern Fleming 520
    Mark Jackson 390
    Jamaal Tinsley 365
    Jalen Rose 212
    Jerry Sichting 163* (31.2)
    Micheal Williams 113
    Pooh Richardson 97
    Anthony Johnson 96
    Butch Carter 82
    Don Buse 78* (30.8)
    Clint Richardson 75
    Haywoode Workman 72
    Travis Best 71
    Johnny Davis 70* (32.5)
    Jim Thomas 67
    Jarrett Jack 53
    T.J. Ford 49
    Kenny Anderson 31
    Terence Stansbury 31
    John Duren 24
    Travis Diener 21
    Ronald Murray 17
    Sarunas Jasikevicius 16
    Kareem Rush 15
    Scott Skiles 15
    Erick Strickland 10
    Ricky Sobers * (34.9)
    John Williamson * (34.5)
    Andre Owens 7
    Keith McLeod 7
    Stephen Graham 6
    Bryan Warrick 5
    Darrell Armstrong 4
    Dwayne McClain 4
    Byron Scott 3
    Eddie Gill 3
    Quinn Buckner 3
    Fred Hoiberg 2
    Malik Sealy 2
    Sidney Lowe 2
    Jamison Brewer 1
    Jerome Allen 1
    Jose Slaughter 1
    Byron Dinkins 0
    Everette Stephens 0
    Guy Morgan 0
    Kevin Ollie 0
    Kyle Macy 0
    Lester Conner 0
    Norm Richardson 0
    Orien Greene 0
    Ralph Jackson 0
    Raymond Townsend 0
    Richard Morton 0
    Rickey Green 0
    Sedric Toney 0
    Tim Hardaway 0
    Tyus Edney 0
    Walker Russell 0
    Freddie Lewis * (17.3)
    Phil Chenier * (16.5)
    Joe Hassett * (15.3)
    Mike Flynn * (13.5)
    Kevin Stacom * (13.0)
    Wayne Radford * (12.5)
    Ron Carter * (9.0)
    Brad Davis * (8.6)
    Darrell Elston * (8.0)
    Kenny Natt * (7.8)
    Bobby Wilson * (7.2)
    Willie Smith * (7.0)
    Jerome Anderson * (6.1)
    John Kuester * (4.2)

    -----

    Section 2 - Ranking each Player by Position

    Here are my breakdowns for each position (G, G-F, F-G, F, F-C, C-F, C)

    I have included their best season, not their average. Averages didn't give a very good reading, especially for players who were brought along as rookies.

    Warning: These rankings are my opinion. Take that as you will.

    Guards PPG RPG APG SPG BPG MPG
    1. Mark Jackson 10.0 3.8 7.8 1.2 0.1 32.6
    2. Vern Fleming 14.3 3.9 7.4 1.1 0.1 35.1
    3. Jalen Rose 20.5 5.0 6.0 0.9 0.6 40.9
    4. Don Buse 8.0 3.3 8.5 3.5 0.2 36.4
    5. Ricky Sobers 18.2 4.1 7.4 2.2 0.3 38.2
    6. Micheal Williams 15.0 3.6 8.2 2.9 0.3 34.8
    7. Jamaal Tinsley 15.4 4.0 6.4 2.0 0.3 32.5
    8. Pooh Richardson 10.4 3.6 7.7 1.3 0.2 32.4
    9. Johnny Davis 18.3 2.4 5.7 1.2 0.3 37.6
    10. John Williamson 20.7 2.5 3.7 1.6 0.2 35.2
    11. Haywoode Workman 7.7 3.1 6.2 1.3 0.1 26.4
    12. Travis Best 11.9 2.9 6.1 1.4 0.1 31.9
    13. Anthony Johnson 9.2 2.2 4.3 0.8 0.3 26.4
    14. Jarrett Jack 13.1 3.4 4.1 1.1 0.2 33.1
    15. T.J. Ford 14.9 3.5 5.3 1.2 0.2 30.5
    16. Butch Carter 13.4 2.1 2.8 1.8 0.2 28.0
    17. Scott Skiles 6.8 1.9 4.9 0.8 0.0 19.6
    18. Jerry Sichting 11.5 2.1 5.7 1.1 0.1 31.2
    19. Travis Diener 6.9 1.7 3.8 0.5 0.1 20.5
    20. Clint Richardson 9.7 3.1 4.5 0.7 0.1 27.1
    21. Ronald Murray 11.0 2.0 3.5 1.1 0.1 22.9
    22. Jim Thomas 11.1 3.3 2.9 1.0 0.1 25.7
    23. Terence Stansbury 7.1 1.5 1.7 0.6 0.2 17.3
    24. Sarunas Jasikevicius 7.4 1.3 3.0 0.4 0.0 17.9
    25. Kareem Rush 8.3 2.4 1.3 0.6 0.3 21.2
    26. Erick Strickland 6.5 2.0 2.9 0.5 0.1 18.0
    27. Kenny Anderson 6.0 1.8 2.8 0.6 0.1 20.6
    28. John Duren 4.5 1.3 2.4 0.8 0.1 17.5
    Guards:
    Obviously Mark Jackson is at the top of this one. Vern was a distributor for many years (84-95). Don Buse led the league in steals the Pacers first year in the league. Tinsley had some good years before he became a persona non grata. A few surprises to me here, as I remembered Scott Skiles being better than he was with us. That must have been after we got rid of him. I'm hopeful that our current guys, or someone we draft, moves up this list.


    Guard-Forwards PPG RPG APG SPG BPG MPG
    1. Reggie Miller 24.6 3.6 3.8 1.3 0.2 38.9
    2. Billy Knight 26.6 7.5 3.3 1.5 0.2 40.0
    3. John Long 15.2 2.7 3.2 1.2 0.1 28.3
    4. Earl Tatum 14.4 3.6 4.0 1.8 0.5 32.6
    5. Marquis Daniels 13.6 4.6 2.1 1.1 0.5 31.5
    6. Fred Jones 10.6 3.1 2.5 0.8 0.4 29.5
    7. Dudley Bradley 8.4 2.7 3.1 2.6 0.6 24.7
    8. George McCloud 7.2 2.6 2.5 0.7 0.1 19.2
    9. Brook Steppe 7.0 2.0 1.3 0.6 0.1 14.0
    10. Kevin McKenna 6.3 1.6 1.9 0.8 0.1 15.1
    11. Randy Wittman 5.2 1.6 2.4 0.4 0.1 21.3

    Guard-Forwards:
    Reggie's category. Billy Knight played well for the Pacers in two separate stints, going back to the ABA days. Wittman played 4 years here('88 - '92), with very low mpg. His only year with double digit minutes still produced the lowest score here.

    Forward-Guards        PPG    RPG    APG    SPG    BPG     MPG
    1. Adrian Dantley 26.5 9.4 2.8 2.1 0.7 41.2
    2. Mike Dunleavy 19.1 5.2 3.5 1.0 0.4 36.0
    3. Chris Mullin 11.3 3.0 2.3 1.2 0.5 26.5
    4. Peja Stojakovic 19.5 6.3 1.7 0.7 0.2 36.4
    5. Ron Anderson 10.4 4.1 2.3 0.9 0.1 24.5
    6. Tony Brown 6.6 3.5 1.9 0.7 0.1 19.3
    7. Mike Sanders 6.2 2.8 1.1 0.5 0.3 18.7
    8. Duane Ferrell 6.4 2.3 1.1 0.6 0.1 18.0

    Forward-Guards:
    Dantley played 23 games for the Pacers during the 1977-78 season, and then we traded him. Awesome. Some recent names at the top, not so much at the bottom. It is important to note that I, like many on this board, have an unfair bias towards more recent players. I did what I could to avoid that here, but the numbers spoke pretty convincingly. Sanders and Ferrell had 3 "meh" years here, but got enough starts to make the list.

    Forwards              PPG     RPG    APG    SPG    BPG     MPG
    1. Clark Kellogg 20.1 10.6 2.8 1.7 0.5 34.1
    2. Dale Davis 11.7 10.9 1.5 0.7 1.6 34.7
    3. Danny Granger 25.8 5.1 2.7 1.0 1.4 36.2
    4. Chuck Person 21.6 6.5 3.6 1.0 0.2 37.7
    5. Ron Artest 24.6 6.4 3.1 1.7 0.9 41.6
    6. Mickey Johnson 19.1 8.3 4.2 1.9 1.4 32.3
    7. Troy Murphy 14.3 11.8 2.4 0.8 0.5 34.0
    8. Alex English 16.0 8.1 3.3 0.9 1.0 33.3
    9. Stephen Jackson 18.7 4.9 2.3 1.3 0.3 35.4
    10. Al Harrington 15.9 6.3 1.4 0.7 0.3 33.6
    11. Austin Croshere 10.3 6.4 1.1 0.5 0.7 23.3
    12. Wil Jones 13.0 7.6 2.4 1.3 1.0 33.9
    13. Brandon Rush 8.1 3.1 0.9 0.5 0.5 24.0
    14. Louis Orr 11.5 4.1 1.7 0.7 0.3 24.4
    15. Jonathan Bender 7.4 3.1 0.8 0.2 0.6 21.1
    16. Sam Mitchell 7.2 3.1 0.9 0.3 0.1 17.3
    17. James Jones 4.9 2.3 0.8 0.4 0.4 17.7
    18. Bill Garnett 6.4 4.4 1.0 0.4 0.2 17.3
    19. Marty Byrnes 4.9 2.4 2.2 0.5 0.1 18.0


    Forwards:
    Clark Kellogg, if only he'd stayed healthy. Pretty good company at the top of this list, and I think Danny will be on top when it's all said and done. Rush may look low, but he really struggled at the beginning of his rookie season.

    Power-Forward Centers  PPG     RPG    APG    SPG    BPG     MPG
    1. Jermaine O'Neal 20.1 10.0 2.1 0.8 2.6 35.7
    2. Derrick McKey 12.0 5.3 4.3 1.5 0.6 34.4
    3. Detlef Schrempf 19.1 9.5 6.0 1.0 0.3 37.8
    4. George McGinnis 13.2 8.5 4.0 1.1 0.2 28.0
    5. Wayman Tisdale 16.0 6.5 1.6 0.7 0.7 27.6
    6. Dan Roundfield 13.4 10.2 2.5 1.0 1.9 30.7
    7.Antonio Davis 10.5 7.3 0.8 0.5 1.0 28.5
    8. Jeff Foster 7.0 9.0 0.7 0.8 0.2 26.1
    9. Mike Bantom 15.3 7.4 2.9 1.2 0.6 33.8
    10. George Johnson 13.0 5.7 2.4 1.0 0.6 25.6
    11. Sam Perkins 6.6 3.6 0.8 0.4 0.4 20.0
    12. Darnell Hillman 10.7 8.5 2.0 1.2 1.3 28.1
    13. Ron Behagen 11.2 6.5 1.3 0.6 0.4 22.2


    Power Forward - Center:
    Jermaine gave us his best years, and then some. If I was judging ABA, and not just NBA, McGinnis would be on top here. What we got from him from 80 - 82 was the tail end of the ABA MVP, scoring champion, and all-time team member. Derrick's contributions didn't always show on the stat sheet. Was impressed with the numbers that Roundfield put up in the late seventies.

    Center-Power Forwards  PPG    RPG    APG    SPG    BPG     MPG
    1. Herb Williams 19.9 9.1 2.2 0.6 2.4 35.5
    2. James Edwards 16.7 8.5 1.1 0.7 1.3 31.0
    3. LaSalle Thompson 12.5 9.9 1.1 1.0 1.2 31.9
    4. Dave Robisch 11.9 6.9 2.0 0.7 0.5 24.6
    5. Clemon Johnson 9.7 6.3 2.3 1.0 1.2 23.8
    6. Tom Owens 10.5 5.0 1.7 0.6 0.5 21.6


    Center - Power Forward:
    Herb Williams played for some of our awful teams, but he stayed healthy and is all over the Pacers all-time stat list. Edwards was solid during our early NBA years. Tank had a low scoring average, but was an enforcer during a physical period in basketball.

    Centers                PPG    RPG    APG    SPG    BPG     MPG
    1. Rik Smits 17.9 7.7 1.4 0.5 1.0 30.5
    2. Steve Stipanovich 13.2 8.3 2.2 1.3 1.2 34.1
    3. Brad Miller 13.1 8.3 2.6 0.9 0.6 31.1
    4. Roy Hibbert 7.1 3.5 0.7 0.3 1.1 14.4
    5. Rasho Nesterovic 6.8 3.4 1.6 0.4 0.5 17.3
    6. Erick Dampier 5.1 4.1 0.6 0.3 1.0 14.6
    7. Scot Pollard 3.8 4.8 0.5 0.8 0.4 17.1
    8. David Harrison 6.1 3.1 0.3 0.4 1.3 17.7
    9. Zan Tabak 3.9 3.9 0.6 0.2 0.5 14.1
    10. Granville Waiters 3.6 2.9 0.8 0.3 1.1 13.3
    11. Greg Dreiling 3.5 3.5 0.7 0.3 0.4 14.1

    Center:
    The Dunkin' Dutchman gave us stability in the middle. Stipo was supposed to be the next big thing before his injury. Both Brad and most of this board wish he'd never left Indy. Hibbert seems high here, especially joining his fellow foul champion Harrison, but he's done fine considering. Some stinkers at the bottom of this one. Waiters and Tabak pulled down some monster numbers. Dreiling's are even worse. In seven seasons with the Pacers, the above is as good as it got.


    Section 3 - Choosing Best and Worst All-Pacer teams
    Well, this started off trying to figure out what the worst starting 5 we could put together was. Now it turns out, I'm just as interested in the top good team. Of course putting Ron Artest, Harrison, Tinsley, and the other nutcases would be fun, but I'm looking at pure production. This was not based on team chemistry, but rather it is similar to how First Team NBA is chosen. I could very well get some of these positions wrong, and I can't imagine anyone agreeing 100%. I welcome any critiques, corrections, or disagreements.

    All Pacers Squad
    First Team
    PG Mark Jackson
    SG Reggie Miller
    SF Adrian Dantley
    PF Clark Kellogg
    C Rik Smits

    Second Team
    PG Vern Fleming
    SG Billy Knight
    SF Danny Granger
    PF Dale Davis
    C Jermaine O'Neal

    Third Team
    PG Don Buse
    SG Jalen Rose
    SF Derek McKey
    PF Detlef Schremph
    C George McGinnis


    The Worst All-Pacers Starter Team
    First Team
    PG John Duren
    SG Randy Wittman
    SF Marty Byrnes
    PF Zan Tabak
    C Greg Dreiling

    Second Team
    PG Terence Stansbury
    SG Duane Ferrell
    SF Bill Garnett
    PF David Harrison
    C Granville Waiters

    Now, if you want to up the threshold on number of starts for the worst team to 20, you don't lose much. Stretch it out to 40, and you're looking at something closer to:

    40+
    First Team
    PG Jim Thomas
    SG Clint Richardson
    SF Louis Orr
    PF Tom Owens/ Clemon Johnson
    C Greg Dreiling (captain)

    I'm not saying that I'm right, of course. Several of these guys were playing before I could really appreciate them live. I appreciate any of you that read this whole thing. I'll be happy to explain my choices, hear other opinions, and admit I was wrong.

    Cheers,

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    Default Re: A Casual Analysis of all Pacers Players, Including Best and Worst All-Pacers Teams (Starts, Best Seasons, Opinions)

    It's just good to see Zan Tabak's name again. Downright shame that Bruno Sundov and Primoz Brezec couldn't make a "worst" team. And I'll tell you who I actually liked: Jamison Brewer. Nowhere to be found. Appreciate the work man!

  4. #3

    Default Re: A Casual Analysis of all Pacers Players, Including Best and Worst All-Pacers Teams (Starts, Best Seasons, Opinions)

    Dang E I give you respect for putting all that together. I thought i was working hard, then you go and spend all night putting that together. Man I am impressed. Mine is more of a voting based on people's opinions, but I like your a lot. Way to go!

  5. #4

    Default Re: A Casual Analysis of all Pacers Players, Including Best and Worst All-Pacers Teams (Starts, Best Seasons, Opinions)

    Thanks for all the effort putting that together. But no Mel Daniels ?
    No Rajah Brown ? No Freddie Lewis ?

    I see others from the old, ABA days listed, so that can't be it.

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    Default Re: A Casual Analysis of all Pacers Players, Including Best and Worst All-Pacers Teams (Starts, Best Seasons, Opinions)

    Shouldn't Dale be in the "Forwards" and not "Forward-Guards" section?

    Nice work though. Interesting stuff.

    Edit: Somewhere in Chicago there is a certain poster steaming that Chuck isn't on one of the top 3 all time teams.

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    Default Re: A Casual Analysis of all Pacers Players, Including Best and Worst All-Pacers Teams (Starts, Best Seasons, Opinions)

    Quote Originally Posted by ESutt7 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    It's just good to see Zan Tabak's name again. Downright shame that Bruno Sundov and Primoz Brezec couldn't make a "worst" team. And I'll tell you who I actually liked: Jamison Brewer. Nowhere to be found. Appreciate the work man!
    Yeah, this wasn't necessarily the worst group to ever lace up (or put on a suit) for the Pacers. Jamison Brewer had 1 career start, where Zan Tabak managed to get 14. Cut off was arbitrarily set at 10.

    Quote Originally Posted by jhondog28 View Post
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    Dang E I give you respect for putting all that together. I thought i was working hard, then you go and spend all night putting that together. Man I am impressed. Mine is more of a voting based on people's opinions, but I like your a lot. Way to go!
    I like your vote threads. Already weighed in on coach, will consult the sheet for the rest. I was trying to make a similar decision, but just didn't have the numbers for half of the guys. Other guys I remember being better or worse than they were because of how they flourished or failed once they left the team.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiny Archibald View Post
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    Thanks for all the effort putting that together. But no Mel Daniels? No Rajah Brown? No Freddie Lewis?

    I see others from the old, ABA days listed, so that can't be it.
    Because of the limited availabilty of the "Games Started" stat, I only used NBA games. Mel never played for the NBA Pacers, most the pity. Everyone above played for us post-ABA merger. In retrospect, I wish I had compiled the whole history onto the spreadsheet before number crunching.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adam1987 View Post
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    Shouldn't Dale be in the "Forwards" and not "Forward-Guards" section?

    Nice work though. Interesting stuff.

    Edit: Somewhere in Chicago there is a certain poster steaming that Chuck isn't on one of the top 3 all time teams.
    Dale is under forwards... though the formatting may make it look like he was in the previous section. I posted a wrap up for each one, and it looks like a section header at a casual glance.

    I had trouble keeping the Rifleman off the list too. It could easily be argued that he belongs there over Derrick McKey. I find that more often than not I agree with that certain Chicago poster, and I'd be intrigued to see what he has to say.

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