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Thread: It takes three really good players

  1. #1

    Default It takes three really good players

    This may be obvious but to be competitive in the playoffs takes 3 really good players. Sure there are exceptions but the teams that got somewhere were

    LA:Kobe, Gasol, Odom
    SA: Duncan, parker, Manu
    Boston: KG, Pierce, Allen
    Cleveland: just LeBron and thus nowhere
    Dallas: just Nowitski; Kidd and Howard not up to par
    Denver; Billups, Carmello, Nene
    Orlando: Howard, Lewis, Turkolu

    LeBron has every right to expect more help next season because he had no one else.
    Last edited by speakout4; 06-14-2009 at 09:09 PM.

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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    ok
    "Larry Bird: You are Officially On the Clock! (3/24/08)"
    (Watching You Like A Hawk!)

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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    Teams win championships!

    Not offense, nor defense, but teams win championships...

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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    That does appear to be the generic model to go for to build a contender.

    Right now, we have one, with a second who could flirt with it if he recovers 100%, and then we'd have to hope Rush can become one. Even if, that'd be a log jam. We need either a PG or a big man to become one (or we have to get one).

    Danny is the only apparrant sure thing right now. So we have one until further notice.

    Once you have three guys like that, you need to just pursue the best role players you can find that fit your trio.

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    I don't know how you say making the ECF is "thus nowhere."

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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    I don't know how you say making the ECF is "thus nowhere."
    Perhaps nowhere was a poor choice of words but the apparent lack of anyone besides LeBron was all too obvious.

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    Perhaps nowhere was a poor choice of words but the apparent lack of anyone besides LeBron was all too obvious.
    I agree...he had an atrocious supporting cast, and it showed when they got handled by a relatively pedestrian (for that level of playoffs) Magic team.

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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    And so the question is, will Rush-Granger-Hibbert be a strong enough trio?

    Because if not, there is still a lot of work for Bird to do over the next two or three seasons.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    For Orlando you can even say Nelson when he's healthy.

  11. #10
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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    And so the question is, will Rush-Granger-Hibbert be a strong enough trio?

    Because if not, there is still a lot of work for Bird to do over the next two or three seasons.
    I doubt it.

    Granger is good enough. Rush needs to be able to play like he did the last dozen games of the season, but I'm not 100% convinced that he can.

    Roy will always be limited. I like him, but I don't see him ever being more than a 25-28 minute guy giving some decent post offense. Think James Edwards.

    They still need to find someone else, or have someone unexpected make a leap.

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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    And so the question is, will Rush-Granger-Hibbert be a strong enough trio?

    Because if not, there is still a lot of work for Bird to do over the next two or three seasons.
    There is no way to possibly know if Rush and Hibbert will be good enough. My wild is guess is no. If Hibbert is your best inside player you will never be an elite team. But I don't know for sure.

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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    Roy will always be limited. I like him, but I don't see him ever being more than a 25-28 minute guy giving some decent post offense.
    Sounds like Smits to me.


    = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

    If Hibbert and Rush are NOT going to be those cornerstones, then we need to move them along at the trading deadline next season. In the past, we'd re-sign them when their rookie contracts expire. That is another item that Bird needs address - figure it out quickly and if it isn't working then move on - decisively - in a different direction.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  14. #13
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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    There is no way to possibly know if Rush and Hibbert will be good enough.
    The guys that do this for a living (e.g., scouts, player personnel types) have an idea. They may not all agree, and some guys need to be in a certain "system".

    There may not be a way for ordinary fans to know, but that is not what I'm asking.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Sounds like Smits to me.


    = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

    If Hibbert and Rush are NOT going to be those cornerstones, then we need to move them along at the trading deadline next season. In the past, we'd re-sign them when their rookie contracts expire. That is another item that Bird needs address - figure it out quickly and if it isn't working then move on - decisively - in a different direction.
    I'm not sure that's the best course of action. How will we know between now and the trading deadline whether or not they are cornerstones? They still are learning the pro game, you can't make knee jerk decisions about players like that in their first year and a half in the league, unless they are just awful and show no signs of improving. Neither Rush nor Hibbert qualifies there.

    They both don't necessarily need to be cornerstones either. Personally, I think Granger and probably Rush will end up qualifying there. Who knows where the other pieces will come from. Personally, I don't believe in the "three is key" team building concept. Orlando is really a balanced team. The Pistons teams that were making ECF runs for the better part of the decade were balanced 1-5. We just need to figure out what works for us, in our situation. If it is three stars, that's great. If it is a well balanced attack 1-5, that's great too.

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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Sounds like Smits to me.


    = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

    If Hibbert and Rush are NOT going to be those cornerstones, then we need to move them along at the trading deadline next season. In the past, we'd re-sign them when their rookie contracts expire. That is another item that Bird needs address - figure it out quickly and if it isn't working then move on - decisively - in a different direction.
    What?????

    Because two players selected in the mid first round of a draft (one on the higher end) are not cornerstones to a championship team they need to be traded?

    Sorry but I disagree with this. Our team is so poor for talent that we need good solid players at every position. would I love to have a star at the 2 or better yet at the 5? Of course. But just because neither of them would develop into that type of player does not mean that you dump them, IMO.

    As to the original post I will say this.

    There is no sure fire one true way to win it all, if there was then every team would be trying for that one way.

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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    That does appear to be the generic model to go for to build a contender.

    Right now, we have one, with a second who could flirt with it if he recovers 100%, and then we'd have to hope Rush can become one. Even if, that'd be a log jam. We need either a PG or a big man to become one (or we have to get one).

    Danny is the only apparrant sure thing right now. So we have one until further notice.

    Once you have three guys like that, you need to just pursue the best role players you can find that fit your trio.
    If Rush can build on the conclusion of last season, I could see him as #2.

    We need at least one more, though. I'm not convinced it will be Dun, especially if he loses his job to Rush. And I don't think Roy will ever be more than an above-average NBA center (which isn't bad, but also isn't enough).

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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    Here's my concern, the book on BRush and Roy aren't out yet. Opposing teams didn't and didn't have to game plan for them. When it becomes widely known how to attack these two, it'll be key that both stay ahead of the curve. Hopefully they'll improve at a rate that surpasses the league ability to nullify them. If that makes sense. I'm just saying I could see a second half of next season slump from both based on this.

    Otherwise, the Pacers have a group of guys who I think can be the 5th or 6th best guy on a championship contending team in the you need 3 players scenario.

    Ford, Jack, Healthy Dunleavy, Murphy, and maybe the Rooks depending on their progression. That's 6 rotation guys who just may not be good enough to be that 2nd or 3rd player, if you truely believe that's what it take in today's NBA.

    Does 4 guys who are semi close to being that player who's the 3rd best guy on a contending team count for anything?

    Personally, I think it's circumstantial at best, I don't think it's a hard requirement to have 3 players like that to contend. Who was Detroits, in their hayday? Lebron got to the finals two years ago with nobody even resembling a 2nd and 3rd guy.

    All I'm saying is this, this team will likely be improved next year with familiarity, the Rooks progression, and a more defensive mindset.

    However they are so far away from being true contenders I'm not sure you can even see it this way, you just have to continue to improve, even very slightly, then see where you are, as you go. Baby steps.

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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    We can fill in the complementary players down the road. If Rush and Hibbert are going to peak at a level that doesn't make us a contender (I happen to think their ceilings are high enough, so I'm not worried about this), then we need to "sell high" - before the rest of the league figures it out and while they still have value.

    In other words - there was a time that Ike Diogu was a red-hot property.

    No need to hang on to Fred Jones so long that the entire world figures out his weaknesses and then you can't trade him and have to let his contract expire.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    We can fill in the complementary players down the road. If Rush and Hibbert are going to peak at a level that doesn't make us a contender (I happen to think their ceilings are high enough, so I'm not worried about this), then we need to "sell high" - before the rest of the league figures it out and while they still have value.

    In other words - there was a time that Ike Diogu was a red-hot property.

    No need to hang on to Fred Jones so long that the entire world figures out his weaknesses and then you can't trade him and have to let his contract expire.
    The same thing with Murphy and maybe Jack if resing, they should have traded Dunleavy when his value was high, now not even the Clippers would want to be part of that.

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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    We can fill in the complementary players down the road. If Rush and Hibbert are going to peak at a level that doesn't make us a contender (I happen to think their ceilings are high enough, so I'm not worried about this), then we need to "sell high" - before the rest of the league figures it out and while they still have value.

    In other words - there was a time that Ike Diogu was a red-hot property.

    No need to hang on to Fred Jones so long that the entire world figures out his weaknesses and then you can't trade him and have to let his contract expire.
    I feel like Rush is an exception. If his defense keeps improving with his jump shot, he's a valuable piece regardless. He keeps himself in games solely with his defense. If he knocks down the open shot as well, that's a piece you don't trade. You win championships with those types of guys. If he peaks at Raja Bell around 2005, that's still not terrible. I'd rather keep him and find other guys to build along Granger.

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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    What about Phoenix who didn't even make the playoffs? Nash, Shaq, Amare...

    Having three really good players doesn't guarantee anything. It might make it easier, but the system and team chemistry is just as important.

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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    With respect to speakout4, this is a case of retro-fitting evidence. His proof of the "It Takes 3" theory is a list of teams that won and three good players from each team. But were more than 3 players essential to the success? And does the success of their teams enhance our impression of those players?

    I imagine the coaches of those teams would agree that the rest of their players, apart from those three, had been essential to their victories.

    I think Phil Jackson has said in the past that it takes three top-level players to win championship. And he oughta know. But Jackson's way is not the only way. A really well balanced five can do it, too.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
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    What about Phoenix who didn't even make the playoffs? Nash, Shaq, Amare...

    Having three really good players doesn't guarantee anything. It might make it easier, but the system and team chemistry is just as important.
    If you're going to mention Phoenix it's only fair to point out that the West had 9 good teams and one of them was going to be forced to miss the playoffs. Also, Amare was done for the season since mid February.

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    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    I think Phil Jackson has said in the past that it takes three top-level players to win championship. And he oughta know. But Jackson's way is not the only way. A really well balanced five can do it, too.
    How many times in the past 2 decades has that been the case? Once? I can only think of the 2004 Detroit Pistons.

  28. #25

    Default Re: It takes three really good players

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    How many times in the past 2 decades has that been the case? Once? I can only think of the 2004 Detroit Pistons.
    Yes, the Pistons are the best example to my knowledge.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

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