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Thread: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

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    Default O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    June 7, 2009
    O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts
    Posted by Mike Wells
    http://blogs.indystar.com/pacersinsi..._dunleavy.html

    THE `BURBS - Here's part of an email I got from somebody last week:

    "What is Jim O'Brien thinking in saying Dick Harter won't have more of a say with the defense? Doesn't he realize his defense stinks?"

    O'Brien, who is a very hands on coach, flat out said "no" when I asked him if Harter would have more of an impact with the defense.

    "Dick has the same impact that he had when he joined me with the (Boston) Celtics and we went from 27th to third (in field goal defense),'' he said last month. "His impact is substantial.

    "Dick has tremendous input, as does (assistants) Dan Burke and Lester (Conner) and Frank (Vogel).''

    O'Brien's comments came weeks after Larry Bird, who said he's not in a lot of the team meetings, would like to see Harter, a former assistant of his, have more of a say.

    "If he doesn't have the input, he'll start to get the input because it's crucial for our team," Bird said back in April.

    Everybody knows the Pacers are a horrible defensive team.

    O'Brien, along with just about everybody else who has seen the Pacers play the past two years, has said it publicly and privately.

    It's up to O'Brien to fix their problems. A good starting point is stopping dribble penetration.

    There hasn't been any indication that O'Brien will receive a contract extension.

    Has O'Brien, who is 72-92 in two seasons, done enough to earn an extension?

    I can already see it now, some of you will say O'Brien will ended up being a "lame-duck" coach next season if he doesn't get an extension.

    Here's two words for you to think about when that thought crosses your mind: Rick
    Carlisle.

    The Pacers gave Carlisle an extension prior to the 2006-07 season to avoid having the players quit on him.

    That decision worked out so well that the Pacers went 35-47, missed the playoffs and Carlisle was fired at the end of the season, forcing the Simon's to cut him a check.

    I'm not a believer in a "lame-duck" coach.

    *********************
    There's a few ways you can look at the "minor" hip surgery Mike Dunleavy underwent last week.

    It's better that he had his "long-standing injury" cleaned up now instead of waiting until later to do it.

    Some of you are probably wondering why he didn't have the procedure right after he had surgery on his right knee in March.

    Others, which probably fits most of you, are thinking this is another setback for Dunleavy and you're wondering if he'll be effective when he returns.

    Pump your brakes on that thought.

    It's way too early to jump to conclusions on Dunleavy's situation.

    The Pacers released a statement saying Dunleavy's hip procedure is not expected to have an impact on his right knee rehabilitation.

    We'll see if that holds true because the Pacers need Dunleavy back on the court since they've suddenly become thin at the swingman position.

    **************************
    The Pacers are expected to resume draft workouts at Conseco Fieldhouse later this week.

    The team's front office, scouting department and O'Brien spent the past two weeks at the pre-draft camp in Chicago and watching group workouts in Minnesota and Golden State.

    General manager David Morway and Pacers scouting director Joe Ash are in Italy scouting talent at the Eurocamp.

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    Default Re: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    Hopefully they actually bring in some players of interest

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    Default Re: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    The Pacers are expected to resume draft workouts at Conseco Fieldhouse later this week.

    The team's front office, scouting department and O'Brien spent the past two weeks at the pre-draft camp in Chicago and watching group workouts in Minnesota and Golden State.

    General manager David Morway and Pacers scouting director Joe Ash are in Italy scouting talent at the Eurocamp.
    Wait, where's Bird again?

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    Default Re: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    Wait, where's Bird again?
    I could be wrong, but I thought I read reports of him being in Chicago (the front office).

    They probably only sent Morway to Europe.

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    Default Re: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    Wait, where's Bird again?
    yeah, he was in chicago last week for the pre draft workout. By they way, reading this article I think that JOB might not be back next year.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 06-07-2009 at 09:51 PM.

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    Default Re: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    I'm not too sure what people want JOB to do. Turn the defense over to Harter like Bird did 10 years ago. Well Dick is 79 years old - he isn't physically capable of doing that. Are people wanting the Pacers to run the exact same defensive system that the pacers ran from 1998 -2000? Well no one runs that defense anymore and it wouldn't be very effective with the new defensive rules. Things have changed - the rules have changed since 1999.

    I feel like a broken record - but I don't think there is anything wrong with the defensive system the Pacers play - as I have said dozens of times it is very similar to what the Celtics currently run, a system that Tom Thibeto (sp) gets tons of credit for.

    Blame JOB if you must for a number of things, but don't blame him for this system - the system is fine - it has worked in the recent past and it is working currently in the NBA.

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    Default Re: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    The Pacers biggest problem on defense might be the offense. Are we shooting shots with too much time on the clock? Does the lack of a low post presence kill them? Is it our lack of offensive rebounds or having few players that can penetrate? Do the Pacers settle for the 3 ball too much?

    I wish I knew the answer but our organization has made the first step in identifying the problem now we must correct the problem.

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    Default Re: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    The thing is, the Pacers are really just an average defensive team, not a horrible one. The high pace of their games makes their offense look better and their defense look worse in terms of PPG, but when you look at their defensive FG%, they're in the middle. It still needs to get better, but it's not as bad as some think it is.

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    Default Re: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    It still needs to get better, but it's not as bad as some think it is.
    Eh, I'd like to see some sort of stats about points in the paint, fast break points allowed ........... easy scores. I think they give up way too many points like that.

    It's the old saying - defense is mostly effort. They just don't put out the effort. Or can't.

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    Default Re: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerDude View Post
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    Eh, I'd like to see some sort of stats about points in the paint, fast break points allowed ........... easy scores. I think they give up way too many points like that.

    It's the old saying - defense is mostly effort. They just don't put out the effort. Or can't.
    Pacers were one of the top teams in fewest points allowed in the paint - but that is to be expected as that is the major point of emphasis of their defensive system. Not sure about fastbreak points allowed, but as JVG said last night that is an incredibly deceiving stat.

    Overall the Pacers trouble with their defense is they foul way too much - but why do they foul? - because they get beat off the dribble too often and just as importantly they have slow and unathletic big guys.


    Hicks, I agree with you you completely - Mike Wells characterization that Everybody knows the Pacers are a horrible defensive team

    Just is not supportive by the facts - they are average overall and not nearly hgood enough as they need to be - pretty much everypone of the 16 playoff teams play better defense - but horrible would indicate the worst in the league - and that isn't the case - nor is it close to being the case.

    In fact the Pacers are tied with the Bulls and the Bucks for 12th best FG% agsaint this past season - that is hardly horrible.

    3 pt FG% against is not good though as they are the 8th worst in the NBA

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    Default Re: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    it is very similar to what the Celtics currently run, a system that Tom Thibeto (sp) gets tons of credit for.



    If Tom T. is running the same system with success, then maybe the Pacers need to hire him, since O'Brien isn't.

    You just knew I couldn't resist saying that!!!!!!!!!!

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    Default Re: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    By they way, reading this article I think that JOB might not be back next year.

    One and done Jimmy.

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    Default Re: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    If Tom T. is running the same system with success, then maybe the Pacers need to hire him, since O'Brien isn't.

    You just knew I couldn't resist saying that!!!!!!!!!!
    He might very well be a strong candidate next summer or the summer after that - doesn't look like he is getting a head coaching job this summer.

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    Default Re: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    Give a fortune 500 business to a bunch of apes and we will see if they can run it well.

    We have players that are not capable of running this system and if you expect Tom T. to come in and change the Pacers into the Celtics, fans will be in a state of perpetual disappointment.

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    Default Re: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    Roaming Gnome: O'Brien will ended up being a "lame-duck" coach next season if he doesn't get an extension.

    Shade: Here's two words for you to think about when that thought crosses your mind: Rick
    Carlisle.
    Fixed.
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    Default Re: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I'm not too sure what people want JOB to do. Turn the defense over to Harter like Bird did 10 years ago. Well Dick is 79 years old - he isn't physically capable of doing that. Are people wanting the Pacers to run the exact same defensive system that the pacers ran from 1998 -2000? Well no one runs that defense anymore and it wouldn't be very effective with the new defensive rules. Things have changed - the rules have changed since 1999.

    I feel like a broken record - but I don't think there is anything wrong with the defensive system the Pacers play - as I have said dozens of times it is very similar to what the Celtics currently run, a system that Tom Thibeto (sp) gets tons of credit for.

    Blame JOB if you must for a number of things, but don't blame him for this system - the system is fine - it has worked in the recent past and it is working currently in the NBA.
    I'm still wondering exactly what it is Dick does to earn a paycheck.
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    Default Re: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    He might very well be a strong candidate next summer or the summer after that - doesn't look like he is getting a head coaching job this summer.

    I don't see him getting a HC job this off season either. My belief is he's one of the best ast coaches in the league, and should get a HC job. AND yes, I would like Bird to hire him. If nothing else he has that Celts connection for Bird, and he definately believes in "D" which Bird knows is missing.

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    Default Re: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    Everybody knows the Pacers are a horrible defensive team.
    I wouldn't say horrible. Of course, that's after seeing the Fever redefine "horrible defense" last night.
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    Default Re: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    Here are some more words to think about then...

    Turns out it wasn't Rick's fault and chasing their tail with a new coach did jack squat to improve their record, despite Dunleavy having a career year.


    Defensively I think they are much better than they were 2 years ago and especially last year, but they have a ways to go. Danny was a key figure there, as was TJ Ford.

    I think the Points in Paint vs 3P% Allowed tell you quite a bit about the method - beat off dribble, protect paint at all costs, leave outside shooters too open, 3P% goes up. Technically those are points FROM the paint if you'd like.

    I liked the trapping but they were forced to go to that way too often.

    However I'm in the "offensive system is the problem" camp. They don't force defenses to work and too often they give up "easy" turnovers off of silly mistakes out on top. Make a team grind to get the possession back from you, missed shot or otherwise, and it slows their own offense down and helps you.

    We all know this, we discuss it to death. I'm more than happy to recognize PACE as a key factor here, just as long as we stop saying the offense is just fine based on pure PPG. It's not. It's sloppy and leans heavily on quick long jumpers still. There remains very little quality inside (or in/out) passing and not a lot of impressive off-ball screening.

    IMO opponents play defense against the Pacers like a sprinter in the starting block just waiting to turn it the other way and take off with the eventual sloppy TO. It's like watching the 2002 Nets except the Pacers face them every night.


    When they are able to rebuff that first quick assault and force a team to set up I think they are actually a pretty good defensive squad. And so we end up right back in the passing PG discussion again, or JOB's willingness to let the offense be run that way.

    We will see. As for contract, who cares. If the players like him and have confidence in him then they will want to play well enough for him to stay. If they don't like him or don't have faith in his strategies then he needs to go anyway. It solves itself.

    The only way you can undermine a coach is by F'ing up the roster...which brings us back to Carlisle.

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    Default Re: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    Not to sidetrack the discussion it's a conundrum though. Do you bring in players to fit a coaches style for a coach that may be out the door?

    I think the obvious answer is no unless it's Phil Jackson and the triangle or you have a Dwight Howard and want to surround him with shooters.

    I'd say they were a bad defensive team last year overall, by any measure.

    However, I'd also say by the end of the season, with B Rush getting big starter minutes and playing with confidence that they were improved. Another reason is familiarity with the scheme and I think Roy played much much better in anticipating and moving his feet to get in better position help side. Lastly, I think when TJ Ford has his mind defensively right that does make a difference.

    I think a couple of things, this is Obie's year and he has to have the team show improvement defensively, his fault or not. I think they can get better with what they have and I think they were already. I still don't think they have the capabilities to be "win a first round series" good, by a long shot. If they improve dramtically I think that could still put them at just midling.

    So you have choices, I guess, revamp the whole roster again, which I don't they can or will do. Add some pieces, which I think they can do. For instance, if you add Tyson Chandler and by the natural progression of BRush and Roy and get DG/TJ focused you can make great strides.

    I'm not advocating getting Tyson Chandler, but I think it's a possibility and it would make a marked difference defensively...or a similar move.

    Otherwise, if you stay the same, I truely believe that they can improve defensively, mostly cuz there's no where to go but up.

    I also think the Obie thing, fair or not, is really pretty simple, if they win 42 or more games and make the playoffs and actually compete in the playoffs, I think they reup him. I think anything less he's not back. It's that simple, I think.

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    Default Re: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    Despite statistics that seem to indicate otherwise, I still stand by the statement that the Pacers' defense is much worse than average.

    The Pacers played in a substantial number of close games this season, and managed to lose far more than they won. Why?

    Oversimplifying a little, we could not get the scores when we absolutely had to have them and we could not get defensive stops when we absolutely had to have them.

    Offensively, we suffered due to poor post offense. No doubt about that.

    But to really gauge our defensive prowess, I think you really have to ignore the first 3 quarters and focus merely on Q4. Why do I say that? Because personally I think our opponents just went through the motions for the first 3 quarters, staying close with a sub-par effort, knowing that they could turn it on in the final quarter to get a win. We were absolutely terrible at closing out games. As long as our opponent could stay close, they would win the majority of the time.

    You could say that either our opponents found a way to win, or we were very skilled at finding a way to lose.

    But more often than not, it had to do with our performance in Q4, so to really judge our abilities, we should probably focus on that.

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    Default Re: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
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    The Pacers played in a substantial number of close games this season, and managed to lose far more than they won. Why?
    http://www.pacersdigest.com/apache2-...1&postcount=98

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    Default Re: O'Brien, Dunleavy and draft workouts(INDY STAR)

    Good memory d_c, props to BnG.

    And we all noted that Danny was one of the top 4th quarter scorers which helps legitimize his statistical value all the more.

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