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Thread: Indiana/Sacramento/Minnesota

  1. #1

    Default Indiana/Sacramento/Minnesota

    I'm exploring ways the Pacers can acquire a quality young big man, who at this point I don't see available in this draft. Does this move (or something similar) make any sense for all three teams?

    Indiana trades TJ Ford and #13 draft pick in 2009 to Minnesota
    Indiana trades Jamal Tinsley to Sacramento

    Sacramento trades Jason Thompson and Kenny Thomas to Indiana
    Sacramento trades Beno Udrih to Minnesota

    Minnesota trades Mike Miller, #18 draft pick in 2009 to Sacramento
    Minnesota trades Brian Cardinal and #28 draft pick in 2009 to Indiana.

    Why for Indiana: We get rid of Tinsley's albatross contract, and gain expiring contracts in Cardinal and Thomas (although they stink as players). We also get a better big young big man than anyone in this draft in Thompson, who can play alongside Hibbert for years to come, and is big enough to play center alongside Murphy this year if needed as well.

    The money saved in contracts for us gives us much needed cap space next summer, and gives us the flexibility to re-sign Jarrett Jack or sign a smaller free agent immediately this summer, if we so choose.

    Why not for Indiana: big gamble to trade Ford if you cannot for sure re-sign Jack, whom you can't negotiate with until July 1. Giving up the 13th pick might be a steep price to pay, although we still get a late first rounder this year at 28.


    Why for Minnesota: Minnesota gives up the unhappy Miller, who didn't fit in well, in exchange for TJ Ford, who becomes an immediate starter I think, and possibly can play alongside Randy Foye in a smallish backcourt. Minnesota moves up 5 spots in the draft and gets rid of a pretty useless Brian Cardinal. Moving up to #13 in the draft might enable them to pair their two lottery picks to move up higher in the draft, if they see a player worthy to move up to get.

    Why not for Minnesota: taking on the long term contract of Beno Udrih might not appeal to them, even though it isn't that expensive.

    Why for Sacramento: The Kings get out of 2 dreadful contracts in Kenny Thomas and Beno Udrih in exchange for Jamal Tinsley, who probably starts for them next season. Mike Miller provides a nice scorer for them alongside Kevin Martin, and they gain an extra first round draft pick in this draft at #18. Like Minnesota, they may be able to pair up their 2 first round picks and move up to get a player they covet, such as Thabeet or more likely Ricky Rubio.

    Why not for Sacramento: They may not like the idea of giving up Thompson, their first round pick of a year ago.


    Thoughts either way?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Indiana/Sacramento/Minnesota

    I wish I'd watched Jason Thompson play last year so I could have more of an opinion. If he's truly better than any big in this year's draft, I'd do this in a heartbeat.
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    Default Re: Indiana/Sacramento/Minnesota

    I had thought about a three way with Minny and Sactown. Before posting the Ford and Minny deal

    I didn't include the 13th pick or Jason Thompson

    It was pretty much much Twolve trade except it had Tinsley and Craig Smith (Minny) going to Sactown and Kenny Thomas going to the Pacers, with the Pacers also getting the Kings 2nd rounder

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    Default Re: Indiana/Sacramento/Minnesota

    Couple points:

    First off, Kenny Thomas' contract (while awful) is an expiring deal. It runs one year shorter than Tinsley's.

    I just don't see Sacramento giving up Thompson, who is one of the few good things they have going for them. He's young and has good size/skills for his position. He has the makings of a long term starter at PF, which isn't easy to find.

    In short, it'd be harder for Sacramento to replace Jason Thompson than to get any of those things that are coming their way in that trade. I don't see a bigman propsect at #18 this year anywhere near good as Thompson.

    Ask yourself this: If the Pacers had Jason Thompson, would you be willing to unload Thompson just to dump Tinsley's deal? Unlikely. That's pretty much the equivalent of what you're asking Sac to do.

    Edit: You can possibly get Sac to bite on this deal if you substitute someone like Francisco Garcia in for Thompson. But the Kings wouldn't give up Thompson, who like you say is better than any bigman that will be there at #13.
    Last edited by d_c; 05-22-2009 at 11:47 AM.

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    Default Re: Indiana/Sacramento/Minnesota

    How is Thompson defensively? I know he has a lot of skills offensively and is a pretty solid rebounder, but would he solve our issues inside at all?

    I would probably do this deal, but would probably do it on draft day and would hopefully have a better idea of how Jack's negotiation would play out.

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  6. #6

    Default Re: Indiana/Sacramento/Minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    Couple points:

    First off, Kenny Thomas' contract (while awful) is an expiring deal. It runs one year shorter than Tinsley's.

    I just don't see Sacramento giving up Thompson, who is one of the few good things they have going for them. He's young and has good size/skills for his position. He has the makings of a long term starter at PF, which isn't easy to find.

    In short, it'd be harder for Sacramento to replace Jason Thompson than to get any of those things that are coming their way in that trade. I don't see a bigman propsect at #18 this year anywhere near good as Thompson.

    Ask yourself this: If the Pacers had Jason Thompson, would you be willing to unload Thompson just to dump Tinsley's deal? Unlikely. That's pretty much the equivalent of what you're asking Sac to do.

    Edit: You can possibly get Sac to bite on this deal if you substitute someone like Francisco Garcia in for Thompson. But the Kings wouldn't give up Thompson, who like you say is better than any bigman that will be there at #13.

    All excellent points....but I do have some counterpoints from a Sacramento perspective to hopefully balance out your concerns.

    Let's assume for a moment that Sacramento stays at 4 and doesnt try to move up. They easily can replace Thompson by drafting Jordan Hill from Arizona, which is in fact what I would need to be hoping they would do.

    Then at #13, they could take the best player available to them that they like the best. If I were them in this scenario, I'd probably look at one of the many point guards likely to be available at that spot and take one of them as Tinsley insurance.

    You must understand that Sacramento's owners, the Maloof brothers, are bleeding money out of their real estate holdings and in their Las Vegas casinos. I would think the cash savings they would have in a deal like this (especially getting out of Udrih's 4 year committment) would have to have some appeal to them. With all the money they supposedly lost when the mortage crisis hit (I think they had large holdings with several of the failing banks....I could be wrong but I don't think so) I am hoping the financial perks of this deal are helpful enough to them they agree to make the move.

    As far as substituting Garcia for Thompson, it would be tempting to do the deal just to get rid of Tinsley, but I think I would pass unless I could get the young big man I am clamoring for in Thompson. I suppose if I could spin Francisco Garcia off to a 4th team to get a young big man (to Philadelphia for Speights would be my fantasy, although no way Philly does that I don't think) then I could still do it.

    I agree that this deal is weakest for Sacramento from a talent perspective....I would be hoping the financial advantages they gain help them enough to do the deal anyway.

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    Default Re: Indiana/Sacramento/Minnesota

    If we got the 24th pick...give me Sam Young or Patty Mills.

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    Default Re: Indiana/Sacramento/Minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    All excellent points....but I do have some counterpoints from a Sacramento perspective to hopefully balance out your concerns.

    Let's assume for a moment that Sacramento stays at 4 and doesnt try to move up. They easily can replace Thompson by drafting Jordan Hill from Arizona, which is in fact what I would need to be hoping they would do.

    Then at #13, they could take the best player available to them that they like the best. If I were them in this scenario, I'd probably look at one of the many point guards likely to be available at that spot and take one of them as Tinsley insurance.

    You must understand that Sacramento's owners, the Maloof brothers, are bleeding money out of their real estate holdings and in their Las Vegas casinos. I would think the cash savings they would have in a deal like this (especially getting out of Udrih's 4 year committment) would have to have some appeal to them. With all the money they supposedly lost when the mortage crisis hit (I think they had large holdings with several of the failing banks....I could be wrong but I don't think so) I am hoping the financial perks of this deal are helpful enough to them they agree to make the move.

    As far as substituting Garcia for Thompson, it would be tempting to do the deal just to get rid of Tinsley, but I think I would pass unless I could get the young big man I am clamoring for in Thompson. I suppose if I could spin Francisco Garcia off to a 4th team to get a young big man (to Philadelphia for Speights would be my fantasy, although no way Philly does that I don't think) then I could still do it.

    I agree that this deal is weakest for Sacramento from a talent perspective....I would be hoping the financial advantages they gain help them enough to do the deal anyway.
    Jordan Hill at #4 is a huge, huge reach. They'll probably just stand pat and take the best available PG (the clear strength of this draft) instead and just keep Thompson, who is better than Hill.

    As far as the financial savings, they wouldn't take affect for another 2 years when Tinsley's deal rolls off while Udrih still has an additional 2 years. But in those interim two seasons, the Kings get no relief at all. Their total payroll would be the same.

    You'd be asking the Kings to take a big talent hit while not seeing any immediate financial savings at all.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Indiana/Sacramento/Minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by d_c View Post
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    Jordan Hill at #4 is a huge, huge reach. They'll probably just stand pat and take the best available PG (the clear strength of this draft) instead and just keep Thompson, who is better than Hill.

    As far as the financial savings, they wouldn't take affect for another 2 years when Tinsley's deal rolls off while Udrih still has an additional 2 years. But in those interim two seasons, the Kings get no relief at all. Their total payroll would be the same.

    You'd be asking the Kings to take a big talent hit while not seeing any immediate financial savings at all.
    I don't think you can classify Jordan Hill being selected at #4 as a huge reach, considering that that is exactly where he is predicted to be picked in several mock drafts, and every mock draft I've seen so far has him at worst in the top 6-8.

    Having said that, you and I are in agreement that Thompson is better than Hill.....I just don't have anyway to know what the Kings or the rest of the general NBA community may think.

    I think it is at least apparent that Thompson fits the profile of the type of player we need badly, and that isn't available in this draft:

    -A young big with upside
    - Big enough/athletic enough to play next to Hibbert OR Murphy
    -Affordable and under contract for multiple seasons.

    I do understand your point on the financial parts of this deal as well....perhaps Minnesota might be persuaded to throw in some cash to Sacramento as part of the equation. Teams can use up to 3million in cash as a "sweetener" in a deal as we all know....maybe the TWolves would consider something like that.

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    Default Re: Indiana/Sacramento/Minnesota

    There are several teams out there (the Kings are hardly alone) who are in some form or another of financial distress.

    And they'll look to trim costs most any way they can but I'm sure the last thing they'll look to do is to unload their best talented young players who are on cheap rookie deals. Seriously, how often do these deals happen?

    For another thing, you can't be too sure that Minnesota will take on the contracts of Ford AND Udrih to begin with, much less throw in $3M cash.

    Seriously speaking, they might be the team that needs to do that deal the least, because they'd be taking on large salaries of not one, but two backup players who play the same position. That's a lot of salary to take on simply to move up 5 (non-top 10) spots in the draft. I don't think they'd be interested.
    Last edited by d_c; 05-22-2009 at 03:00 PM.

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    Member jeffg-body's Avatar
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    Default Re: Indiana/Sacramento/Minnesota

    As a Pacer fan I would be all for it, I am not too sure the other partners in this scenario would though. I do definitely like it.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Indiana/Sacramento/Minnesota

    The trade works under the CBA http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMa...tradeId=qxhzrw

    Sac is not going to give us Thomas and Thompson for Tinsley. Thomas get paid more than Tinsley, but has a shorter contract and it expires in 2010 (when all the big FAs are available).

    Also, I think we could get more for Ford than Cardinal and and #28th pick. It seems that Tinsley has more value than Ford (if you compare the two trades)
    Last edited by MillerTime; 05-24-2009 at 04:34 PM.
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    Default Re: Indiana/Sacramento/Minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    Sac is going to give us Thomas and Thompson for Tinsley. Thomas get paid more than Tinsley, but has a shorter contract and it expires in 2010 (when all the big FAs are available).
    What incentive is there for Sacramento to do that?

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    Default Re: Indiana/Sacramento/Minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDoddage View Post
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    What incentive is there for Sacramento to do that?
    I meant to say they will NOT do that trade
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Indiana/Sacramento/Minnesota

    How about this structure, a slight alteration of the same idea:

    trade 1: Tinsley, #13 to Minnesota/ Cardinal, #18 and #28 to Indiana

    trade 2 Ford, #18 to Sacramento /Thompson, Thomas to Indiana

    How would this be as an alternate idea?

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    Default Re: Indiana/Sacramento/Minnesota

    Quote Originally Posted by thunderbird1245 View Post
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    How about this structure, a slight alteration of the same idea:

    trade 1: Tinsley, #13 to Minnesota/ Cardinal, #18 and #28 to Indiana

    trade 2 Ford, #18 to Sacramento /Thompson, Thomas to Indiana

    How would this be as an alternate idea?
    I just don't think either one of those other teams, if presented with those offers, would feel a real compelling need to do those trades, particularly Sacramento.

    Minnesota trading #18 and #28 to move up is something they're surely looking at, but probably not to take on the extra year of Tinsley's deal. They could probably trade up to someone's pick at say, #14 or 15 but not have to take back extra salary. That would be a better deal for them.

    The only way the Wolves would feel truly compelled to do that deal is if they were really in love with a particular player at #13 and felt they could only get him by trading up that far.

    I think Sacramento simply likes Jason Thompson at lot more than TJ Ford and whatever they can get at #18. I think every executive in the league does.

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