Results 1 to 24 of 24

Thread: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

  1. #1
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    20,346

    Default Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    Well, it's been a long season. But for the first time in a while, it's ultimately been an enjoyable season. Maybe if you were expecting playoffs then you're disappointed but I think the playoffs were an unrealistic goal to begin. Sure, the East is bad enough we had a chance to make the playoffs, but why? The season (for me) was more about seeing some individual and team growth. In the past we've had some players who weren't interested in being the best team player they could be.

    This season sure looked like a group of coachable players who had an idea that their best chance of winning was as a team.

    I don't necessarily think wholesale changes are needed on the player front. Obviously, some things are going to happen naturally anyway. I hope we can finally move/buyout Tinsley just to keep that potential distraction from popping up. I think Dun's injury has been a blessing in disguise because it opened the door for Brandon Rush. I don't think our improved record and better defense can be explained many other ways than by what these guys brought to the starting lineup. Personally, I think they deserved more minutes sooner.

    Marquis' injury was also a blessing in disguise because I think it makes the decision to not pick up his option not only likely but and easy and prudent decision. With Rush coming into his own and a potential Dunleavy return, I'm fine with keeping Graham around unless a 'can't pass' guy falls into our lap. I think Graham offers us consistency with the lineup and I think that (consistency... an extra year together in the system....) will be a major factor for next season.

    Unlike some of you, I applaud Troy Murphy. Not only do I think he was doing what the coach wanted but he was doing it with a tremendous amount of heart and passion. Sure, he has his limitations (see: defense), but I cannot fault his effort. I think he played his heart out every minute he was on the floor. That is contagious for the other players.

    Hibbert is a player who occasionally showed real flashes that he has a potential long and positive future as the Pacers starting center. He has his limitations as well, but I think questions about his quickness (or lack thereof) were overblown. Ultimately, it's going to be a combination of his smarts and figuring out how to use his size in the NBA as well as the officials not giving him the quick whistle and no benefit of the doubt. One helps feed the other. And going a long way in all of that I think is the need to get a big man coach for him.

    Jarret Jack is a player I'd like to see return although I wouldn't give him the franchise to keep him. I agree with Peck that Jack got too many minutes. I think Diener deserved more minutes than he got. You'd think somewhere in there is a happy medium. For all the talk about Diener's defensive liabilities, the team on the court in the 4th qtr (with Diener and Jack) actually played some pretty good defense in the final game.

    That brings us to Josh McRoberts. I think McRoberts should be a keeper as long as his salary demands are reasonable. I think he should've gotten more minutes this season. He's an energy guy and brings hustle to the floor... and he can bring offense as well as defense. Let him play the energizer bunny role and come in and disrupt the other team when a burst of energy or change of pace is needed. I think the way his minutes were doled out this year were a little unfair because I think he entered the games he did with the idea he had to try a little too hard. I think that burned him the one game where he must've set a record for fouls.... And I think at least a couple of those fouls were questionable and the whole thing snow-balled to a point O'Brien sent him to the end of the pine for a little too long. If anything, I think he needed to be put back on the horse that threw him and gotten into the next game for some controlled minutes. I see McRoberts as a potential successor to Foster with a much higher ceiling. That doesn't mean I think he should get Foster-sized minutes... I think Foster has historically gotten too many minutes and has been too much of a Pacers safety blanket.

    I'm not as down on Ford as some of you are. He's not perfect and he does some frustrating things, but he also does some good things. I expected more from his defense due to his quickness but I think another season with the team and our game will help him. He may never be Mark Jackson but he's not Travis Best either... although he's obviously more Travis than Mark. And he's way more consistent than Tinsley and consistency is important in a PG. And (so far) he has all the appearances of being more of a team player and particularly more of a coachable player than Tinsley.

    Granger probably had one of the best regular seasons as a player that the NBA Pacers have seen. We pretty much saw everything with Granger this season. Offensive growth, an All-star nod, leadership, 4th quarter growth, a better understanding of the game and the players around him, timely defense, etc.. He even quieted Robertmto's early season complaints that he wasn't a 4th qtr player
    Granger grew into his leadership role and appears to have the respect of his teammates and TPTB. That's not something that can be said of JO. I suspect that is not all due to the things we see and know about. I think dedication to the game, practice, etc are factors in that.

    I'm not the biggest Jim O'Brien fan because quite frankly, I can't figure out what he really wants. Maybe, just maybe, he's building a system and allowing some things to happen for player growth. Maybe the 3rd year is when he says: "OK, you guys can shoot the ball. You know how to score and you know what each other offensive abilities are. Now, let's play some defense and make that the final piece of the puzzle and not only make the playoffs but win in the playoffs"

    ...A guy can dream can't he?

    But I have to give him credit for getting this team to play HARD. Nearly every game he had them playing with effort and passion. Maybe some of that is simply having players who aren't lazy in the first place and maybe that is contagious. In any case, it's been a while since we've seen that as a whole and it's good to see. It's one of the things that has me so positive about the future. Even when the team got down, they tended to make a run and not let anyone walk over them. That is another sign of heart. It also might be a sign our talent isn't as lacking as some are making it out to be. We might not be so far off afterall. I have to wonder if internally the team and O'Brien have a different set of goals than we've been privy to. That may be why he's able to keep the team playing hard because they know the bigger picture even if it isn't being advertised to the masses for PR reasons.

    I still don't think I'd pick up his option. Let's see what the plan is for next year and how it pans out. I don't particularly think he's a lame duck coach since the team does have that option in their pocket. Plus, if the team really does like playing for him they can rally around him and win for him.

    The other thing that gives me hope is that Donnie Walsh is gone. That is something that had to happen and IMHO it was way overdue. The team and fans needed some real changes in the team. Not tweaks. We all needed to see some light at the end of the tunnel and meaningful changes. Bird and Morway managed to change the culture of this team in a rather short amount of time after Walsh was gone. I don't think that was mere coincidence. Also, I know Bird got the blame for S. Williams but Williams sure looked like a Walsh kind of pick... A young player, a tweener (SF/PF), with the 'potential' tag on him. And therein lies a problem.... the team was going nowhere and in need of change (even some change for change's sake) but as long as Walsh/Bird/Morway were all here who is to say who did what moves with the team? Having a management team, especially one of questionable matching goals, tends to be a bit paralyzing anyway (in any endeavor). Then factor in Walsh, a historically slow mover, having final say and I think it's clear why he had to go. He was running the franchise into the ground and keeping his head too far in the sand.

    Now we know where the blame lies if things come crashing down. No Teflon Don or Loony Larry to choose from.

    So, to sum it all up.... I couldn't be happier with how this season has played out. The playoffs mean nothing to me until I believe the team is ready. I really think next year the team will be ready. We're going to get a draft pick to play with... we've got some assets we could potentially utilize and we will more than likely have some consistency next season no matter what with our core. And this coming season, having consistency with the core is a good thing... it means we're keeping players who understand team basketball and appear to have pride in their Pacers' jersey. And maybe... maybe... there is a plan with what O'Brien has been building toward.

    I'm not a guy who has to have a winning record to be satisfied every year, but I have to see a team making progress and getting closer to an ultimate goal of getting a championship. A team that is never satisfied, from the end of the bench, to management, to ownership. Moral victories are something to be found in your career retrospective, not in the season. I want a team on the floor that plays the right way.... and a management team that wants to use that effort and desire, that "playing the right way", to ultimately construct a championship team.

    Right now I feel awfully good about the future of this team. I offer my thanks to the current players and management for what appears to be the first step in righting this ship and turning away from the iceberg.... not just rearranging the deck chairs.
    Last edited by Bball; 04-18-2009 at 04:32 AM.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  2. #2
    Administrator Roaming Gnome's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indy's Wild Wild West Side: 8 sec-check...Club Rio-check...Cloud 9-check
    Age
    40
    Posts
    5,943

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    Holy ****, a post from Bball.
    ...Still "flying casual"
    @roaminggnome74

  3. #3
    Member Doug's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    3,631

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    I'm Doug, and I approve bball's message.

    Seriously, I agree so much with that post I could have written it myself.

    This franchise has a foundation and a direction. And both appear to be solid and positive. I'm happy with where we are, and where we appear to be going.
    You're caught up in the Internet / you think it's such a great asset / but you're wrong, wrong, wrong
    All that fiber optic gear / still cannot take away the fear / like an island song

    - Jimmy Buffett

  4. #4

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    Beautiful summary, Bball, great job!

    (One challenge: Due to the insider info I got just hours before the draft that year, I remain convinced that Shawne Williams was indeed Larry's choice. Now, as for trading up to get James White, well, let's just not even go there. Justin will blow a gasket. )

  5. #5
    Formerly QuickRelease NapTonius Monk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    4,796

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    Well, all things considered, if we're talking about 'a certain' 1st rounder that didn't pan out, then ok. Some GM's have a drafting track record so bad, you can't remember them all. I actually feel that Larry drafts well.

  6. #6
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    20,346

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    The point wasn't to assign blame or make excuses for that particular draft. It was just to show how muddled things were with the 2 or 3 heads collectively trying to make a decision. SWilliams is the type of player Walsh had some history of drafting. Did Bird choose him because that was solely his guy or because he knew (or felt) that was the player that fit Donnie's criteria that Bird himself liked best?

    So we knew sooner or later these decisions would rest on Bird's shoulders but where was the line? When would it start? Until Walsh was gone there was always going to be some question who did what and how much input each had in a decision. Would the same decision had been made without the other there?
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  7. #7
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,762

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    I have no idea who picked Williams, although Bird did say it was him but then he could have just been saying that. But all I know is that once a problem manifested itself Bird went right to work trying to correct the problem and move him.

    That in and of itself is a vast change from what we had seen in years past.

    Good post and I agree with about everything in it.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    I agree. That was a good and balanced post.

  9. #9
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Free Lance!
    Posts
    8,165

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    Good post.

    Let's talk about defense. I'm not sold on the theory that JOB talks defense a lot but really is all about offense.

    From what I can tell, he does emphasize defense a good bit. I think the problem, beyond defensive talent--which everyone agrees is lacking--is the defensive system and strategy.

    This thing they are doing tends to allow players not to man up and stop a player, but rather let him slide by and get stopped by the rotating player. Supposedly, if everyone rotates perfectly than after 24 seconds the team gets stopped.

    I think I saw that happen a few times this year. Mostly what I saw was point guards letting guys drive right by them, barely slowing them down, as bigs stepped up to stop the penetrating opponent, only to allow a wide open perimeter shot.

    Bball, like your long exhale of joy over accountability with management now--we know who made the good and bad decisions--I would also like to go back to a more traditional defense where we could see who is playing good D with real effort and who is not.

    Again, I think JOB is talking defense all the time. But his system reminds of new math. I'm ready to go back to the basics.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  10. #10
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    20,346

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    It will be interesting to see if it still feels like we have a sense of direction after this offseason or just how we'll handle it. The draft, so far, seems like it is going to be tough to get a handle on (barring some lottery luck). But there's so many possibilities with trades, acquisitions, etc that you don't really know what could happen overall. In year's past nothing would happen... we'd pick a 'tweener' 'potential-laiden' SF type player and hear how surprised we were our guy fell to us and that would be that.

    There's also always the unlikely chance we move Tinsley and acquire something. You have to think the odds of it being a trade that really makes a difference is something slim. I used to think you could always trade players in the NBA if you were willing to negotiate, work hard at it, and take your lumps if need be.... but Tinsley is certainly the exception to that.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  11. #11
    Well lubricated Skaut_Ech's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    2,397

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    It far as I'm will be interesting to see if it still feels like we have a sense of direction after this offseason or just how we'll handle it. The draft, so far, seems like it is going to be tough to get a handle on (barring some lottery luck). But there's so many possibilities with trades, acquisitions, etc that you don't really know what could happen overall. In year's past nothing would happen... we'd pick a 'tweener' 'potential-laiden' SF type player and hear how surprised we were our guy fell to us and that would be that.
    I pretty much feel the same way you do, bball. Usually do. That being said, this off season is huge far as I'm concerned. I think we have a lot of options out there and I'm going to really be watching to see what we do this year. I love your tweener comment cause that's how I've always viewed things come draft time, too.

    Far as I'm concerned, every deal should concern us stockpiling big men. Tweeners and SF/SG are the proverbial dime a dozen.

    I've been very patient this year cause I see progress, but I expect to see a big leap next year. I think off season is going to be a big part of it. I have some personal thougts on what I think we should do. Curious to see if the team's actions jibe with my thoughts.


    Hey! What're you kicking me for? You want me to ask? All right, I'll ask! Ma'am, where do the high school girls hang out in this town?

  12. #12
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    5,772

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    Quote Originally Posted by Skaut_Ech View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I pretty much feel the same way you do, bball. Usually do. That being said, this off season is huge far as I'm concerned. I think we have a lot of options out there and I'm going to really be watching to see what we do this year. I love your tweener comment cause that's how I've always viewed things come draft time, too.

    Far as I'm concerned, every deal should concern us stockpiling big men. Tweeners and SF/SG are the proverbial dime a dozen.

    I've been very patient this year cause I see progress, but I expect to see a big leap next year. I think off season is going to be a big part of it. I have some personal thougts on what I think we should do. Curious to see if the team's actions jibe with my thoughts.


    You're setting yourself up for disappointment. The Pacers have far fewer realistic options this summer, and the only summer I can recall them having fewer chances to make changes with personnel was two years ago, when they were forced to fill out the roster with cheapies like K Rush, Graham, and Diener.

    I think they can get better next year, but I don't see any realistic shot at a leap.

  13. #13
    Member OakMoses's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Montana
    Age
    36
    Posts
    3,031

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I think they can get better next year, but I don't see any realistic shot at a leap.
    I agree with you about no leap, but I think we need to take into account that we were above .500 over the last 41 games of the season. During that stretch we were as good as any team in the East outside of the top 3. The Bulls and Hawks were only 1 or 2 games better than us over the 2nd half of the season. Almost 50% of our games were decided either in overtime or by 5 points or less and that we were 16-23 in those games. Assuming Jack re-signs, I could see us making a step forward by both playing better and winning more games, without significant contributions from Dunleavy and our '09 draft pick.

    I'm probably an eternal optimist, but 40-44 wins with minimal roster change wouldn't shock me a bit for next season.

    Also, I'd bet if you polled all the guys on the top 4 playoff teams and asked them if they'd rather be playing their current matchup or the Pacers, the current matchup would get it's fair share of votes.
    "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

    - Salman Rushdie

  14. #14

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    Quote Originally Posted by mellifluous View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Also, I'd bet if you polled all the guys on the top 4 playoff teams and asked them if they'd rather be playing their current matchup or the Pacers, the current matchup would get it's fair share of votes.
    the pacers would be an easy out for any team that made the playoffs this year in the east, i dont buy your statement at all. i am somewhat glad we didnt make the playoffs cuz we would be the whipping boys. the last thing i want is for my pacers to get embarrassed on national tv.

  15. #15
    Member OakMoses's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Location
    Montana
    Age
    36
    Posts
    3,031

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    Quote Originally Posted by plutarch View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    the pacers would be an easy out for any team that made the playoffs this year in the east, i dont buy your statement at all. i am somewhat glad we didnt make the playoffs cuz we would be the whipping boys. the last thing i want is for my pacers to get embarrassed on national tv.
    I guarantee that the the Pacers would have given Cleveland and Atlanta more trouble than Detroit and Miami did this weekend. I also firmly believe that they would not have gotten swept by any team in the playoffs, East or West.
    "A man with no belly has no appetite for life."

    - Salman Rushdie

  16. #16

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    Again, I think JOB is talking defense all the time. But his system reminds of new math. I'm ready to go back to the basics.

    I couldn't agree more!

  17. #17

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote

    You have to think the odds of it being a trade that really makes a difference is something slim. I used to think you could always trade players in the NBA if you were willing to negotiate, work hard at it, and take your lumps if need be.... but Tinsley is certainly the exception to that.

    I understand what you are saying, but with only 2 years left on Tinsley's contract it enhances the chance of getting one done this off season. Like a Nzar Mohammed who wants out of Charlotte. They have the same length of contract and salaries match. I know that part should be in the trade forum, but I'm just trying to point out I think Bird and Morway have opportunity to make something happen now, and hopefully they can get it done.

  18. #18
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Posts
    5,772

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    You're setting yourself up for disappointment. The Pacers have far fewer realistic options this summer, and the only summer I can recall them having fewer chances to make changes with personnel was two years ago, when they were forced to fill out the roster with cheapies like K Rush, Graham, and Diener.
    Obviously, this should all be prefaced by "I think."

  19. #19
    Member Trophy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Raleigh, NC
    Posts
    8,556

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    I agree with this. Especially the part of crediting Troy. He did a great job in rebounding and shooting this season.

  20. #20
    Member Jon Theodore's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Age
    29
    Posts
    1,762

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    That was my favorite mortems
    *removed* Just keep politics and religion completely out of it, please.

  21. #21
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    23,747

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    the only summer I can recall them having fewer chances to make changes with personnel was two years ago, when they were forced to fill out the roster with cheapies like K Rush, Graham, and Diener.
    What this team really needs is a guy who's the best shooter in the league, as well as a take-charge PG like Mark Price.
    Welcome to Pacers Digest! New around here? Here are three tips for making the forum a great place to talk about Pacers basketball.

    • Log in. Even if you want to read instead of post, it's helpful because it lets you:
    • Change your signature options. You can hide all signatures by choosing "Settings" (top right) then "General Settings" (middle left) and unchecking the box "Show Signatures" (in the "Thread Display Options" area).
    • Create an ignore list. I know it may seem unneighborly. But you're here to talk about the Pacers, not argue with someone who's just looking for an argument. Most of the regular users on here make use (at least occasionally) of the "Ignore" feature. Just go to "Settings" -> "Edit Ignore List" and add the names.

    Enjoy your time at PD!

  22. #22
    Administrator Peck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    12,762

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    What this team really needs is a guy who's the best shooter in the league, as well as a take-charge PG like Mark Price.
    So your saying J.J. Redick?

  23. #23
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Posts
    23,747

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    So your saying J.J. Redick?
    Don't be Redickulous.
    Welcome to Pacers Digest! New around here? Here are three tips for making the forum a great place to talk about Pacers basketball.

    • Log in. Even if you want to read instead of post, it's helpful because it lets you:
    • Change your signature options. You can hide all signatures by choosing "Settings" (top right) then "General Settings" (middle left) and unchecking the box "Show Signatures" (in the "Thread Display Options" area).
    • Create an ignore list. I know it may seem unneighborly. But you're here to talk about the Pacers, not argue with someone who's just looking for an argument. Most of the regular users on here make use (at least occasionally) of the "Ignore" feature. Just go to "Settings" -> "Edit Ignore List" and add the names.

    Enjoy your time at PD!

  24. #24
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Free Lance!
    Posts
    8,165

    Default Re: Bball's End of Season Post Mortem

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Don't be Redickulous.
    He was j ... just kidding.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

Similar Threads

  1. 2008 Darksider of the Year - Bball
    By Hicks in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 45
    Last Post: 05-12-2008, 12:22 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •