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Thread: Geothermal info needed

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    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Geothermal info needed

    Not to be political, but.........

    With the Cap and Trade movement about to cause energy costs to skyrocket, I am considering alternative heat sources (I really need a new furnace anyway). I also have a leaky water heater but that's another matter. So yeah, anyone know anything about the in-line "on demand" water heaters so popular in Europe?

    Geothermal HVAC seems to make sense to me and perhaps solar panels for the home.

    Anyone have experience with either? Where to find SOLID info about either? And how do I know who I can trust?
    (I'm skeptical of every claim I hear)
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    Huge Member heywoode's Avatar
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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    The on-demand water heaters are great in theory, but when I was considering installing one to replace my electric tank water heater that took a dump, I was advised by several people that they are very temperamental. Unless the water you are running through it is VERY clean, it will probably have a tendency to clog up at the element and need repairs quite a bit. I think we are a victim of geography as far as that goes, geezer. I live in a town that is nicknamed 'Lime City' so I decided to not go with the tankless or on-demand water heater.

    As far as geothermal heat or solar panel installation goes, I don't know much, but I might be able to find a couple of phone numbers for you. I have a friend who has solar panels, and another friend who has geothermal. Not sure how either got their systems installed, who did it for them, or if they felt they were treated fairly or not, but I could find out. Not sure how much help information local to Huntington, IN would benefit you, but I would be happy to make a couple of phone calls for you if you would like.

    The only thing I know for certain about geothermal heating is that there is a property tax exemption for it. Given that you probably already have a homestead and mortgage exemption, and with your username, you might have an age exemption...not sure you could get the geothermal one. I think there is a limit to how many exemptions you can have.

    One way or the other, I may be in a position to be able to find out some info for you, but it might not be very useful. Let me know if you want me to proceed...



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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

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    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    OK This is freaky. I posted this thread this AM and this afternoon a new prospective client talked about wanting a commercial property. I found something I thought they might like and went out to view it myself. The building is owned and shared by a HVAC company that teaches others how to install Geothermal. The building is heated/cooled via geothermal and the floor is even heated. Hell they even have an LPG pumping station for duel fuel vehicles.

    I guess I'll be talking with them as I get further along with this....or at least I know where to go to talk with somebody about it.

    In the meantime Heywood any info you can find out would be helpful, as I said I don't trust most of what I hear so I like to get multiple sources. And I'd still like info on solar panels and/or windmills. As for the inline water heater, that is NOT good news. I am on Indy water but need a water softener or I get scale on my dishes horribly. I absolutely ruined a humidifier in 6 months becasue of the lime scale.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    BTW....am I a nutcase? You betchum Red Rider. With the taxes and inflation that are about to hit us I gotta do everything I can to save on utilities. AND I am going to the point of getting a good roto-tiller to put in a garden and my 85 yr old mother and I are going to "can" green beans, tomatoes, etc.

    If as I predict, we are about to enter a period of near depression and total government dependency, I wish to be independent as long as possible. Even if we don't, I wish to be as free of this governmental control as I can be.

    OK political rant off. I apologize. Someone has already said they "fear" me. I don't want that to be the case...I've simply stated what I believe with my whole being. I honestly pray that I am wrong. But I don't believe it for an instant.

    again, Rant off!~!
    Last edited by indygeezer; 04-02-2009 at 07:57 PM.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    I'm proud of you, geezer! You are doing all the right things. Your reasons are delusional, but your proposed actions are noble.



    I'm glad to see you're getting some good information, too. The experience I've had with European plumbing doesn't recommend itself, but maybe you can find better answers. Go for it! At our house, the plans are for a second wood stove and for a south-facing greenhouse room to capture winter sunlight and heat.

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    Member idioteque's Avatar
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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    Oh Geez there is really nothing wrong with being paranoid.

    Living in an area where property is way too expensive to be able for me to purchase can be frustrating in this regard. This is especially for Mrs. DC since she is used to growing all of her own fruits and vegetables. We are looking forward to getting a place with a yard (yes this is a luxury in DC) in the somewhat near future so we can grow all of our own veggies and what fruits we can. After that we will move a couple counties out to the boonies, which is what we both prefer, and have a little animal farm for our own meat, too.
    Last edited by idioteque; 04-02-2009 at 08:40 PM.

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    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    I will say this tho, I am not storing ammunition and building bunkers, nor do I foresee a 30's style depression. But I do see the gov't giving us everything we "need" so we don't truelly feel the pain.

    (Oh feel lucky, I just wrote and deleted a looooong tome on energy and prices...just too preachie)
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    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    Quote Originally Posted by dcpacersfan View Post
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    Oh Geez there is really nothing wrong with being paranoid.

    Living in an area where property is way too expensive to be able for me to purchase can be frustrating in this regard. This is especially for Mrs. DC since she is used to growing all of her own fruits and vegetables. We are looking forward to getting a place with a yard (yes this is a luxury in DC) in the somewhat near future so we can grow all of our own veggies and what fruits we can. After that we will move a couple counties out to the boonies, which is what we both prefer, and have a little animal farm for our own meat, too.
    Good for you. After my cousin's husband spent about 5 hrs. climbing out from under the rubble of the Pentagon on 9/11 he moved a couple of counties south too. To an area called South Carolina.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    Cheeseburger in Paradise Los Angeles's Avatar
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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    Friend of mine in LA had a modest house and a modest income and decided to go solar. It cost some money for sure, and he made some blunders early but pretty soon he started getting checks FROM the power company for sharing his energy with the grid. Then he looked around and discovered that all those early blunders gave him an education on equipment selection and installation.

    He turned his knowledge into a business just 5 years ago and let's just say his house and income aren't so modest anymore.

    He dreams of a future when power hogging businesses and governments pay its citizens for use of their wind, geothermal and solar energy resources. Imagine traffic lights that pay you.
    “Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts.” - Winston Churchill

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    The light, not the lie. kester99's Avatar
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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    At my house, to save energy, we burn the desiccated corpses of the rich, after all things good have been sucked out of them for the benefit of the common weal. (The weight difference is not that much, oddly enough.) Lot of hot air left, though.

    -- smiley face -- -- buddies -- -- worker solidarity --


    Actually, what I'd like to do is micro-hydroelectric. Unfortunately, our water source is at the bottom of the hill, instead of the top. Go figure.
    [~]) ... Cheers! Go Pacers!

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    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Los Angeles View Post
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    Friend of mine in LA had a modest house and a modest income and decided to go solar. It cost some money for sure, and he made some blunders early but pretty soon he started getting checks FROM the power company for sharing his energy with the grid. Then he looked around and discovered that all those early blunders gave him an education on equipment selection and installation.

    He turned his knowledge into a business just 5 years ago and let's just say his house and income aren't so modest anymore.

    He dreams of a future when power hogging businesses and governments pay its citizens for use of their wind, geothermal and solar energy resources. Imagine traffic lights that pay you.


    Sounds like a "too good" dream. Hm....how about charging tall buildings for creating barriers to sunshine and wind that you might be able to use if they didn't exist? Somewhere there is a lawyer just waiting to take on a case like that.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    Quote Originally Posted by kester99 View Post
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    At my house, to save energy, we burn the desiccated corpses of the rich, after all things good have been sucked out of them for the good of the common weal. (The weight difference is not that much, oddly enough.) Lot of hot air left, though.

    -- smiley face -- -- buddies -- -- worker solidarity --


    Actually, what I'd like to do is micro-hydroelectric. Unfortunately, our water source is at the bottom of the hill, instead of the top. Go figure.
    have you ever seen the old gold miner water boxes (placer mining??) that get smaller and smaller as the water runs into them? The pipe starts out with a large diameter and and as the water flows thru it's length the pipe gets narrower and narrower, thus increasing pressure and momentum. By the time the water exits the pipe the opening is merely a couple of inches with massive velocity and pressure. They were able to wash away entire mountainsides this way....now apply that to a generating turbine and viola...free electricity.
    If you get to thinkin’ you’re a person of some influence, try orderin’ somebody else’s dog around..

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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    The actual "skyrocketing" is predicted to be about $20 a month. So the installation of a geothermal heat pump, costing $15,000-$40,000, would pay for itself right?

    $20 link

    Link


    "Cost

    As a rule of thumb, a geothermal heat pump system costs about $2,500 per ton of capacity. The typically sized home would use a three-ton unit costing roughly $7,500. That initial cost is nearly twice the price of a regular heat pump system that would probably cost about $4,000, with air conditioning.
    You will have to, however, add the cost of drilling to this total amount. The final cost will depend on whether your system will drill vertically deep underground or will put the loops in a horizontal fashion a shorter distance below ground. The cost of drilling can run anywhere from $10,000 to $30,000, or more depending on the terrain and other local factors.
    Added to an already built home an replacing an existing HVAC unit, an efficient geothermal system saves enough on utility bills that the investment can be recouped in five to ten years"


    second link is for GHP prices
    Last edited by Dr. Goldfoot; 04-06-2009 at 01:55 PM.

  15. #15
    The light, not the lie. kester99's Avatar
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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    "now apply that to a generating turbine and viola...free electricity"


    Yep, that's the idea I'd like to go with (particularly the viola part), but it'll have to wait until we get a slope running down from the water.

    Solar would probably work here, just fine. Don't know about the neighborhood association, though. The 'architectural committee' tend to be skeptics at just about any change visible from the street.

    Yes, I'd love to have GA Power pay me, though.
    Last edited by kester99; 04-06-2009 at 02:01 PM.
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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    By the by, I'm actually very interested in alternative forms of energy etc...My original post may have come off otherwise. If somebody can dig up some more encouraging info on Geothermal, solar power that doesn't include 50 car batteries or wind power that would be useful in a suburban home's yard I'm all ears. So far in my search I've only come up with more roadblocks. Hopefully the last couple of years of fuel price increase and what seems like a serious dedication in the future these things can start to take a practical shape.

    Realistically, if you're concerned with the cost of heating and cooling your home the answer doesn't come with that kind of price tag. Same case when looking at more energy efficient automobiles. I simply can't afford to pay the predicted price tag on the plug-ins coming our way in the next couple of years.

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    Member Since86's Avatar
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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    I don't know much about the cost of installing and such, but my parents live in a house with geo, and they've had no problems with it. (Lived there about 10yrs now.)

    Well, I can't say they haven't had any problems. We had tile issues, and still do to some degree, so during big storms our basement would flood causing damage to the system. It itself wasn't helping the problem, because the water it was using was dumping right back into the problem tile.

    After a couple of years, retiling and even installed a pump in the basement, everything is running pretty smoothly.

    I know it keeps the house warm in the winter and cool in the summer.

    BTW, Ball State is putting it in for the entire campus (I believe). It's going to be the biggest geothermal project in US history.

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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    Quote Originally Posted by kester99 View Post
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    Actually, what I'd like to do is micro-hydroelectric. Unfortunately, our water source is at the bottom of the hill, instead of the top. Go figure.

    We made this work in Kyrgyzstan. There was plenty of falling water there. We could convert washing machine motors into generators.

    There was only one farm that was close enough to the stream to make it practical, though. I deminstrated the ide to several people, but we only made a practical barn light for one family.

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    yawn cgg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    There should be some pretty significant tax incentives...

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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    I may have to make a decision soon....my water heater is dripping faster all the time.


    Part of it is I just don't want my money going to the gov't because someone has a boner for coal and is going to penalize Indiana residents even tho our power companies have been working toward clean coal technology. Part of it too is that I just think we can do things smarter. And should.
    (see, I CAN return to my Liberal Dem upbringing from time-to-time).


    BTW....where did the $20 figure come from?? BO's statement said that he intended to bankrupt the coal industry. That coast would initially be passed along to us and then when we could no longer get coal and have to import our electricity across the grid...THAT cost would have to be passed along too. But hey, I'm just a poor schlep of a consumer...whadoIknow? Maybe I look at things too literally...or perhaps I should just turn the news off.
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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    The $20 figure comes from Politifact. The House Republican Conference has implied that Obama's cap and trade program is essentially a "Light Switch Tax" where power companies would pass the buck to consumers. They also had a press release claiming it would cost each American $3128 a year. They cited a M.I.T. report as their basis for this.

    Then one of the authors of the MIT report commenting on Republican claims said "It's wrong in so many ways it's hard to begin." He also went on to say that he told them it was wrong when they intially asked him. MIT expects the cap and trade to push prices down on non-carbon based fuels and the people would get some of the estimated $366 billion (cap & trade tax estimates) back in some form or another.

    The report claims long term (2015) the annual cost per person would be about $85 bucks or about $215 a year per family divided by 12 months is 17.90 rounded up to $20.
    Last edited by Dr. Goldfoot; 04-07-2009 at 10:41 AM.

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    Tree People to the Core! indygeezer's Avatar
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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Goldfoot View Post
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    The $20 figure comes from Politifact. The House Republican Conference has implied that Obama's cap and trade program is essentially a "Light Switch Tax" where power companies would pass the buck to consumers. They also had a press release claiming it would cost each American $3128 a year. They cited a M.I.T. report as their basis for this.

    Then one of the authors of the MIT report commenting on Republican claims said "It's wrong in so many ways it's hard to begin." He also went on to say that he told them it was wrong when they intially asked him. MIT expects the cap and trade to push prices down on non-carbon based fuels and the people would get some of the estimated $366 billion (cap & trade tax estimates) back in some form or another.

    The report claims long term (2015) the annual cost per person would be about $85 bucks or about $215 a year per family divided by 12 months is 17.90 rounded up to $20.
    Not to be argumentative, but if that is the case all we have to do is raise taxes on gas and oil and that will casue the prices of alternative fuels to go down. It's the same thinking isn't it??? Raise the tax on one to drive down the cost of the other?????? Unless you are artificially supporting the price of the alternative that sort of pricing theory has never borne out.
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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    Don't know, I'm not an "energy, environmental and agricultural economist at M.I.T.". I'm just regurgitating the comments of the author of the initial report.

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    Member Dr. Goldfoot's Avatar
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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    Here's a quote from that link....


    "That's just not how economists calculate the cost of a tax proposal, Reilly said. The tax might push the price of carbon-based fuels up a bit, but other results of a cap-and-trade program, such as increased conservation and more competition from other fuel sources, would put downward pressure on prices. Moreover, consumers would get some of the tax back from the government in some form."

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    Huge Member heywoode's Avatar
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    Default Re: Geothermal info needed

    Skip the tankless water heater, buy a new one and wrap it with a thermal blanket. Dial it down 3 degrees for a bit of long-term cost savings.

    My guy with solar panels has had them for 22 years and installed them himself. The place he got the hardware from is now defunct. My friend with the geothermal has now apparently dropped off the face of the planet, because I get no response to emails or phone calls.

    I think you should go for both, Geezer. Call your local County Auditor's office to discuss what tax exemptions you already have, and if you can still get the geothermal exemption, about how much it will save you. I'm not saying it will be much; probably $3,000 off of your net assessed value on your property. Basically, you won't pay taxes on that 3K...Pretty miniscule, but every little bit helps!



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