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Thread: TJ Ford

  1. #1

    Default TJ Ford

    Now I'm new here so I'm sure I've probably missed some of the discussion, but why all the hatred for TJ Ford? I've read quite a few post and the vast majority are all way higher on Jarret Jack than Ford. I mean if you look at the stats he's committed 3 more TO's but had 60 or so more assist in fewer minutes. I know Jack has spent more time playing the shooting guard, that is his natural position IMO.

    Personally I would rather see Ford starting. I think Jack's ability to create his own shot is something that is needed with the 2nd unit. Ford has much better court vision along with being a better ball handler.

    I guess I was a little surprised to see all the post that want TJ ford traded in the off season. If it's a contract thing wouldn't it be better to hold on to him for at least another year so you'd be able to trade his expiring contract?

  2. #2
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    Default Re: TJ Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by thefeistyone View Post
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    Now I'm new here so I'm sure I've probably missed some of the discussion, but why all the hatred for TJ Ford? I've read quite a few post and the vast majority are all way higher on Jarret Jack than Ford. I mean if you look at the stats he's committed 3 more TO's but had 60 or so more assist in fewer minutes. I know Jack has spent more time playing the shooting guard, that is his natural position IMO.

    Personally I would rather see Ford starting. I think Jack's ability to create his own shot is something that is needed with the 2nd unit. Ford has much better court vision along with being a better ball handler.

    I guess I was a little surprised to see all the post that want TJ ford traded in the off season. If it's a contract thing wouldn't it be better to hold on to him for at least another year so you'd be able to trade his expiring contract?
    Ford can also be out of control at times and his shot selection isnt that great.

    His contract will most likely end in 2011 (because he will probably exercise his player option)
    "So, which one of you guys is going to come in second?" - Larry Bird before the 3 point contest. He won.



  3. #3

    Default Re: TJ Ford

    Before the benching, TJ had run the offense into the ground by overdribbling. And anyone that forgot how Tinsley played defense gets a gamely reminder since the Toronto game.

    While his offense has improved a lot since the benching, he still hasn't shown any effort to be the defender he can be.

    I'm guessing most of the negativity comes from that.


    His stats look pretty good on paper.

  4. #4

    Default Re: TJ Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat View Post
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    Before the benching, TJ had run the offense into the ground by overdribbling. And anyone that forgot how Tinsley played defense gets a gamely reminder since the Toronto game.

    While his offense has improved a lot since the benching, he still hasn't shown any effort to be the defender he can be.

    I'm guessing most of the negativity comes from that.


    His stats look pretty good on paper.
    Fair enough...I think comparing his defense to Tin's is a little bit of a stretch. He isn't near that bad. If its an effort thing then I would understand the negativity. I know he certainly has the speed to be a good defender.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: TJ Ford

    I think TJ has been at times unfairly criticized in this forum. Not really sure why. I think some thought we were getting a player who was better than than Ford actually is. I think some didn't really know what we were getting, while others appear to have never liked his game to begin with.

    (One thing I have been surprised about is how often he loses the ball by dribbling it off his leg, off his foot - even when he isn't being closely guarded - surprising for a point guard)

    I've been a little torn on Ford the whole season. One reason is because I have been a huge fan of Jack for years, I have wanted the Pacers to get Jack for years. Ford was never a player that I ever really wanted on the Pacers. Don't get me wrong I was in favor of the trade (JO for Ford) last summer. And overall I've learned to appreciate Ford's game quite a bit.

    He is a scoring point guard who has turned into a very good shooter out to about 20 ft. No he doesn't have good vision (he isn't Tinsley or Mark Jackson) he isn't a great ball handler and he lacks some of the point guard skills that I think most in this forum I gues assumed he had.

    Having said all of that - I find it insulting to compare TJ's defense with Tinsley - Ford is a much better defender - in fact I've been more than satisfied with Ford's defense - it isn't bad.

    One other thing to keep in mind. many of you have been almost giddy with the "benching of Ford" as if he hardly ever plays. he is still playing starter minutes - he still finishes every close game. IMO he is still a starter - he just doesn't start the games.

    There have been several games this season where he was a huge factor in the Pacers winning the game late. His ability to create a shot has won a handfull of games this season.

    Ford is what I thought he was before we acquired him last summer

  6. #6
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    Default Re: TJ Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I think TJ has been at times unfairly criticized in this forum. Not really sure why. I think some thought we were getting a player who was better than than Ford actually is. I think some didn't really know what we were getting, while others appear to have never liked his game to begin with.

    (One thing I have been surprised about is how often he loses the ball by dribbling it off his leg, off his foot - even when he isn't being closely guarded - surprising for a point guard)

    I've been a little torn on Ford the whole season. One reason is because I have been a huge fan of Jack for years, I have wanted the Pacers to get Jack for years. Ford was never a player that I ever really wanted on the Pacers. Don't get me wrong I was in favor of the trade (JO for Ford) last summer. And overall I've learned to appreciate Ford's game quite a bit.

    He is a scoring point guard who has turned into a very good shooter out to about 20 ft. No he doesn't have good vision (he isn't Tinsley or Mark Jackson) he isn't a great ball handler and he lacks some of the point guard skills that I think most in this forum I gues assumed he had.

    Having said all of that - I find it insulting to compare TJ's defense with Tinsley - Ford is a much better defender - in fact I've been more than satisfied with Ford's defense - it isn't bad.

    One other thing to keep in mind. many of you have been almost giddy with the "benching of Ford" as if he hardly ever plays. he is still playing starter minutes - he still finishes every close game. IMO he is still a starter - he just doesn't start the games.

    There have been several games this season where he was a huge factor in the Pacers winning the game late. His ability to create a shot has won a handfull of games this season.

    Ford is what I thought he was before we acquired him last summer
    I think Ford's criticism comes from the fact that he fails to get some of the team involved and he tried to take the game into his own hands. Look how well Brandon Rush has developed with Jack at PG.
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    Default Re: TJ Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    I think Ford's criticism comes from the fact that he fails to get some of the team involved and he tried to take the game into his own hands. Look how well Brandon Rush has developed with Jack at PG.
    I think Rush's development and Jack's taking over the PG role are somewhat coincidental, and probably has more to do with the additional time that Rush is getting (and specifically the additional time with Danny) than the divergent styles of Ford and Jack.

    Rush is largely getting the same looks he had before, he's just hitting them. I don't think it has a lot to do with Ford vs. Jack.

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    Default Re: TJ Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    I think Ford's criticism comes from the fact that he fails to get some of the team involved and he tried to take the game into his own hands. Look how well Brandon Rush has developed with Jack at PG.
    I think one thing has nothing to do with the other. Or maybe I could say look at how well Rush has developed now that Murphy is out of the lineup.


    Rush has developed late like this because he is finally ready. Sure the playing time he got with Dunleavy out and when granger was out really helped him - but more than anything he was just ready

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    Default Re: TJ Ford

    I feel like Ford is more of a dumper than a creator. He puts himself in a bad position then dumps it off to another guy in a bad position. It works sometimes.

  10. #10
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    Default Re: TJ Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Ford is what I thought he was before we acquired him last summer
    I agree with this. I agree with most of the pro's and con's you listed as well.

    But man, this forum hyped him up last summer in a way he couldn't possibly live up to. And the disappointment that the actual TJ Ford was nowhere near the player he was overhyped to be is certainly part of the reason that everyone else is down on him lately.

    I never liked his game to begin with. That doesn't mean that I think he sucks. I just want him to be the starter on somebody else's team.

    There are clearly things he can do - but I don't think some of those things are important to winning basketball (although they make his stats look better) and some of the things that I believe are important to winning basketball are not TJ's strenghts (court vision and ability to finish in traffic). Clearly he's quick and can shoot from outside of five feet out to about 18-20 feet. And some people love those things in a PG. Not me.

    But I think his "selfish" play/ attitude is what really caught people off guard. Tinsley is not the only PG in the league with baggage, people.

    Anyway, the contrarian in me thinks that if the current sentiment gets much stronger, it will be time for me to start talking about the 2 or 3 things that TJ does that I like, instead of the 20-30 things I don't like.



    In conclusion, I think I agree with this comment about as much as I've ever agreed with UncleBuck,

    One reason is because I have been a huge fan of Jack for years, I have wanted the Pacers to get Jack for years. Ford was never a player that I ever really wanted on the Pacers. Don't get me wrong I was in favor of the trade (JO for Ford) last summer.
    Jack just has that hard-to-quantify mentally tough/ winner/ gets the job done characteristic that I love. (Something that I saw early on with Tinsley and have stubbornly refused to let go of in spite of overwhelming evidence to the contrary.) Jack is a "fourth quarter" player.
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    Default Re: TJ Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    But man, this forum hyped him up last summer in a way he couldn't possibly live up to.
    Yep. I cringed every time I read "top 10 PG."

    Also, I'm in the "wanted Jack for years" camp.
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  12. #12

    Default Re: TJ Ford

    I turned on Ford when I saw him get embarassed by someone on defense, and the next 4 plays on offense he just brought the ball up and took some stupid shot on the run or in traffic.

    I was at the game, but I can't remember what it was that set it off, but I remember the entire crowd going "ooooooooh" and he was the one who got embarassed. It was just a very stupid turn of events that was the end for me. I just couldn't believe a PG brought the ball up the court 4 times, and with 0 passes. 4 stupid shots, and 0 made shots as well.

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    Default Re: TJ Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    I think Rush's development and Jack's taking over the PG role are somewhat coincidental, and probably has more to do with the additional time that Rush is getting (and specifically the additional time with Danny) than the divergent styles of Ford and Jack.

    Rush is largely getting the same looks he had before, he's just hitting them. I don't think it has a lot to do with Ford vs. Jack.
    I disagree. I think Jack is a better passer out of traffic than Ford. I also think TJ has a tendency to wait too long to pass, meaning either that the shot has to be rushed OR that the receiver has relaxed out of shooting form thinking the ball isn't coming.

    Rhythm is a very important part of what a PG brings, and I think Jack has better rhythm than TJ.

    I'm not hating on TJ, he just isn't my kind of PG and isn't consistent enough to get me past that.
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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: TJ Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I disagree. I think Jack is a better passer out of traffic than Ford. I also think TJ has a tendency to wait too long to pass, meaning either that the shot has to be rushed OR that the receiver has relaxed out of shooting form thinking the ball isn't coming.

    Rhythm is a very important part of what a PG brings, and I think Jack has better rhythm than TJ.

    I'm not hating on TJ, he just isn't my kind of PG and isn't consistent enough to get me past that.
    I think both Jack and Ford are flawed, but I like Jack better. It may be expectations, or it just may be personal preference.

    I don't disagree with what you're saying here, but I really don't think Jack vs. Ford has a material impact on Rush coming out the last two games.

    I think having the good defensive game against Wade may have had a bigger impact on Rush's head than anything the PG's are doing.

  15. #15

    Default Re: TJ Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    Ford can also be out of control at times and his shot selection isnt that great.
    That's it right there in a nutshell.

    I like TJ's hustle. He plays with a lot of passion, but he tends to try and dribble through defenses too often, and sometimes he's so out of control when he does.

    There are times when you need your PG to be a distributor more than a creator, and times when you need your PG to be a penetrator and creator and not a distributor. TJ, from time-to-time, has a somewhat difficult time determining when is the right time to do either. That will come in time, but he tends to do it at the most inopportune times down the stretch. And that's what frustrates me so much about him.
    Quote Originally Posted by MillerTime View Post
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    I think Ford's criticism comes from the fact that he fails to get some of the team involved and he tried to take the game into his own hands. Look how well Brandon Rush has developed with Jack at PG.
    I think there's something to this. BillS said it best...rhythm is everything in a transition game, and the Pacers rely heavily on that. Hence, they work best w/a "pass-first" PG rather than w/a "creator off the dribble" PG. Consider Murphy's success this year. Does anyone think he'd have been so successful from the perimeter this year had he not been the recipient of so many passess off the dribble as the trailor?

    Granted, there are times when one works better than the other, i.e., having a Chris Paul or Devon Harris on your team as opposed to a TJ Ford, but for the Pacers' taste I think they'd rather have a combination of a TJ and Deiner running the Point - someone who'll take care of the ball, penetrate when the opportunities present themselves but be very willing to be unselfish w/the ball in transition. Jared Jack provides those qualities. I'm less nervous about what our PG will do when either JJ or Deiner are at the Point than I am w/TJ out there. I'm reminded too much of Tinsley whenever TJ's running the offense and that scares me!
    Last edited by NuffSaid; 03-31-2009 at 01:26 PM.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: TJ Ford

    I think Uncle Buck is right about me at least. At the beginning of the season, I had unrealistic expectations for him. I had understood TJ as a scoring PG, but I was on the fence about how much so. Then he started off the season dropping dimes to Rasho regularly. So my mindset shifted thinking wow, he is a playmaker pass first guy. Then the real TJ showed over time. I don't hate on him, I'm disappointed cuz my own expectations were misplaced.

    Next season, I'll probably appreciate him more. I actually do now that he's coming off the bench and producing.

    I would love to see a second unit led by Dunleavy & TJ Ford, next year. I think that is as nice a fit as Danny and BRush or Hibbert and Murphy/Foster. I think those pieces really fit nicely and you'd have a really effective bench and a deep solid team, imho.

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    Default Re: TJ Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacersfan46 View Post
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    I just couldn't believe a PG brought the ball up the court 4 times, and with 0 passes. 4 stupid shots, and 0 made shots as well.

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    Default Re: TJ Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    "Me either", says Travis Best.
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    Default Re: TJ Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    I think Uncle Buck is right about me at least. At the beginning of the season, I had unrealistic expectations for him. I had understood TJ as a scoring PG, but I was on the fence about how much so. Then he started off the season dropping dimes to Rasho regularly. So my mindset shifted thinking wow, he is a playmaker pass first guy. Then the real TJ showed over time. I don't hate on him, I'm disappointed cuz my own expectations were misplaced.
    Yeah me too, my opinion was based mostly on stats because I hadn't really watched him play. He averaged like 7 assists a game in about 20 MPG so I assumed that could translate to close to 9-10 assists or so playing over 30 minutes. Instead it has gone down. That many assists said "True" PG to me but the freedom of Obrien's offense has actually been a negative thing for TJ. He would probably be better if he was told what to do more often with more set plays. His decision making is poor and he is a bad fit here I think.
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  20. #20
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    Default Re: TJ Ford

    Not to get into stats. But TJ's current scoring average for this season of 15.1 is second on the pacers team and this is TJ's career high. His FG% of 44.5% is second highest in his career as is his 87% FT%. His current turnovers per game are less than his career average and his second lowest ever. His three point shooting is a career best by a wide margin. His assists however are a career low.

    Not sure what my point in all of this except to suggest that he is who he is and this season is very typical for him and in fact in a lot of ways he is having a pretty good season.
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 03-31-2009 at 01:42 PM.

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    Default Re: TJ Ford

    Yeah, my biggest surprise about TJ was his lack of handles for as quick as he is. As Unclebuck mentioned, he often loses the ball by dribbling it off his leg and off his foot - even when he isn't being closely guarded.

    He kind of reminds me of those Perelli tire commercials from the late 80's where they show sports cars skidding off the road with the quote at the end... "Speed is nothing without control!"
    ...Still "flying casual"
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    Default Re: TJ Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    IHaving said all of that - I find it insulting to compare TJ's defense with Tinsley - Ford is a much better defender - in fact I've been more than satisfied with Ford's defense - it isn't bad.
    That's the same exact thought I had when I read that comparison. TJ's done a good job against guys like Deron Williams, Billups, Nash, Bibby, and he even played Chris Paul about as good as can be expected in the 2 games against him.

    Tinsley got lit up by opposing PGs on the regular. I still have nightmares of Billups destroying Tinsley and the Pacers during the playoffs. His man defense is one of the worst I've ever seen. TJ isn't the best but he's still better than Tinsley, IMHO.

    I really like JJack, I've followed him since his college senior season and he is much better when he starts at PG. He was the same way in Portland so it makes since to have him start and let TJ play 6th man.
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: TJ Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    His current turnovers per game are less than his career average and his second lowest ever. His three point shooting is a career best by a wide margin. His assists however are a career low.
    I don't know how to prove it without a per minute analysis broken down by part of the season, but I'm betting his turnovers are down because his minutes actually bringing the ball up court are down.

    The assists number is a huge red flag for me. By itself it could mean almost anything, considering we go through extended periods where the rest of the team are playing "miss the backboard", but I am inclined to believe it means Ford takes over the scoring too much, just as was supposed to have ignited the row a few games ago.
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    Default Re: TJ Ford

    T.J. is a lot like Travis Best. I am confident that good coaching can break Ford's tendency to over dribble and drive into trouble.

    I know many fans favor Jack. Personally, I can understand why, though I don't know I completely agree. Jack has his flaws as well. His assist to turnover ratio is nearly 1 to 1, and while he is a strong contributer at the point guard position, he will always be a "tweener." I think Jarret is an elite 6th man, but not a future starter at the point; that is assuming of course the Pacers become a strong championship contender.

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    Default Re: TJ Ford

    Quote Originally Posted by ryheathco View Post
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    T.J. is a lot like Travis Best. I am confident that good coaching can break Ford's tendency to over dribble and drive into trouble.

    I know many fans favor Jack. Personally, I can understand why, though I don't know I completely agree. Jack has his flaws as well. His assist to turnover ratio is nearly 1 to 1, and while he is a strong contributer at the point guard position, he will always be a "tweener." I think Jarrett is an elite 6th man, but not a future starter at the point; that is assuming of course the Pacers become a strong championship contender.
    I do agree with you that T.J. is a lot like Travis Best but I think that Jarrett is the better starting PG for us now and in the future with T.J. coming off the bench. We've had some success with Jarrett starting lately.

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