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Thread: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

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    Default Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    I haven't had time to read this because I'm swamped at work today, but I didn't see it posted so here it is

    Chris Broussard


    ESPN.com
    http://sports.espn.go.com/espnmag/story?id=4018165


    What's The Difference Between Danny Granger and Kobe Bryant?

    Their stats suggest not much. Then again, some will tell you stats lie. Particularly when your team isn't all that.



    He was an unsung rookie with a rehabbing knee. The last thing Danny Granger needed was to be called out by one of the league's baddest men. But sure enough, there was Ron Artest, challenging his Pacers teammate to man up.

    To get a feel for how harrowing this is, you need to understand one-on-one Artest-style. It's part basketball, part football, with a bit of wrestling tossed in. He slaps at the ball with a ferocity that bruises wrists and forearms and throws shoulders like boxer's jabs, repeatedly bouncing them off your chin. All of it is a test of will, of course, to see if he can trust you once the real games begin.


    In the summer of 2005, Artest tested Granger, again and again. But he didn't render a verdict until weeks later. Following an early-season game, Danny Granger Sr. approached his son's infamous teammate. Artest made polite conversation then began to walk off. Suddenly, he stopped and headed back. "Mr. Granger," he said, staring into the father's eyes, "in two years your son is going to be a star."


    Artest was a couple of years premature in his prediction, but he wasn't wrong. Today, Granger is a rising star, a 25-year-old All-Star averaging 25 ppg. In the words of teammate Jeff Foster, it's "an astounding rise" for a player who was offered one D1 scholarship (from Bradley; he later transferred to New Mexico) and was passed over 16 times on draft night in favor of such current benchwarmers as Ike Diogu, Antoine Wright and Joey Graham. Yet even now not everyone is sold on Danny Granger. Indy's sub-.500 season has talking heads from Jeff Van Gundy to local legend Reggie Miller arguing that the 6'8", 228-pound forward should have watched the All-Stars, not played among them.



    And he is hardly the only player who faces this particular skepticism. The Clippers' Zach Randolph and Wolves' Al Jefferson are 20-point, 10-rebound machines, but neither has come close to being an All-Star. The Kings' Kevin Martin was seventh in the NBA in scoring last season, but few, if any, consider him big-time. Look, everyone knows that who is or isn't an All-Star in any given year can be as much a question of depth as the final word on a player's skill set. And this season, the Raptors' Chris Bosh and Nets' Devin Harris were teammates of Granger's on the East despite also playing for less-than-mediocre clubs. Bosh, in fact, is an Olympian. But still, it is individual leaders like them who cause the same question to be asked each year: Is a guy who puts up huge stats for a bad team as good as his numbers?


    Being able to reconcile the space between a player's stats and his team's record is a big part of what separates championship-level talent evaluators from the recycled masses. All sorts of x factors come into play: Who is the guy scoring against? How does he get his points? Is he effective in crunch time? And the consensus on Granger, not just in front offices, but on sidelines and in locker rooms as well, is that he's legit.
    And that's because…


    Danny Granger is efficient. Even as Granger acknowledges the lone-wolf theory—that on a poor team someone is bound to post impressive stats—he is quick to add a corollary: "Some say it's harder to score on a bad team because everybody's loading up on you."


    Don't let the Pacers' 6—5 record when Granger sat with a partially torn tendon in his foot fool you. It's not like there are many other guys on Indy who can do damage. Granger has been double-teamed, denied the ball and keyed on in ways that other prominent wings, like Paul Pierce, Joe Johnson and Carmelo Anthony, never are. "He's scoring volumes of points with the best defenses in the league focused on him,'' coach Jim O'Brien says.


    Granger's shooting percentage of 43.2 isn't blistering, but it's within percentage points of Johnson's as well as Kobe's in both his last season with and first season without Shaq. With a quick release and deft touch from behind the arc, a snappy first step that gets him to the rim (and the line: 6.8 FTA per game) and a solid midrange game, Granger gets his points in the flow of a democratic offense, not by going rogue like many top dogs on sorry teams. "He gets his points quietly," says Rockets stopper Shane Battier. "When they beat us in Indiana, I guarded him, and I thought I'd done a pretty good job. Then I looked at the stat sheet and saw he had 25."


    Danny Granger has a winning work ethic. There's 0.9 seconds left, game tied, and four Pacers are lined up at the foul line. Granger pops out beyond the three-point line, catches Mike Dunleavy's inbound feed and hurls the ball toward the rim in one motion as Steve Nash flies toward him. All net. The Pacers mob Granger as the home-team Suns walk off the court in disbelief.


    It isn't luck that has Granger draining shots like that. He practices those heaves almost daily. The guy who scored an impressive 30 on his ACT and was accepted to Yale works on stuff some players don't even think about. In addition to catch-and-release J's, he practices shots off bad passes, from deep beyond the arc and from the apex of his highest jumps. "I'm telling you," he says, "I get at least one unorthodox shot every game."

    There are six cities in which NBA players gather for hard runs in the off-season: Houston, Chicago, Los Angeles, Philadelphia, Atlanta and Las Vegas. If a player is serious about getting better, he'll spend significant time in one of them. Granger always heads for LA as soon as the season ends, but last year he hit Vegas as well. He returned to Indy with a nice payoff: an improved midrange shot and more basket-attacking skills. Armed with those new weapons, he is on pace to be the first player in NBA history to raise his scoring average at least five points in three straight seasons. His determination also manifests in on-court toughness. In November, Granger lost two front teeth in a loose-ball scrum against Boston. Within moments, as blood dripped from both sides of his mouth, he was begging to return. That fearlessness is the product of his upbringing in a violent, drug-infested neighborhood in Metairie, La.; several of Granger's childhood friends wound up in prison. "Danny's not backing down from anything or anybody," says Pacers president Larry Bird.

    Danny Granger doesn't pad his stats—Not against bad teams, not during blowouts. Through mid-March Indy's record (28—40) is lame, but more than a few league-watchers concede the Pacers aren't exactly bottom-feeders; they do stay close most nights. A league-high 18 of their games have been decided by three points or less (they're 7—11 in those contests), and they've beaten the Celtics, Lakers, Cavaliers, Magic and Pistons, and the Rockets twice. Granger put 42 on the Pistons, 36 on the Nuggets, 33 on the Cavaliers and the Magic and 32 on the Lakers. He's tied with Dwyane Wade in average fourth-quarter scoring (at 6.9) and has a game-winning tip against Houston to go with that buzzer-beater in Phoenix. "If he was scoring and we were losing by 20, maybe the numbers would be a little false," O'Brien says. "That isn't the case."
    Getty Images
    Granger takes it to the rack against Portland.


    As go-to as Granger has become, though, he is a long way from crashing the league's elite wing triumvirate of Kobe, LeBron and Wade. In fact, if those guys are the first tier of swingmen, most scouts put Granger in the third, behind a group that includes Pierce, Anthony, Johnson, a motivated Vince Carter and a healthy Tracy McGrady. Granger heads a bunch that includes Rashard Lewis, Caron Butler, Andre Iguodala and Josh Howard. League wisdom holds that in a more conventional system than O'Brien's quick-draw, every-look-is-a-good-one scheme, Granger would be good for 17 to 20 points a night.

    In the end, it's not even about the numbers. "It's not an indictment of him that the Pacers aren't winning," says an Eastern Conference scout. "But if he's your best player—which he is in Indiana—you're in trouble. You're not going to win at a high level." One West exec, referencing the NBA's most heavenly duo, puts it more poetically but just as bluntly: "Granger can be a Scottie to somebody's Mike. He just can't be Mike."


    But he can continue to get better. Unlike several players of his caliber, Granger may be far from tapped out. "I'm about 70% of the player I can be," he says. O'Brien sees him becoming a lockdown defender, rather than just a wicked weakside shotblocker (1.5 bpg). Bird sees seven or eight boards a night, rather than the five he corrals now. And Granger says he's determined to hone his post-up skills and develop a point forward's mentality and handle. Now he works solely from the wing, but someday he wants to be the guy grabbing a defensive board, pushing it upcourt and running a high pick-and-roll from the top of the key. He wants to be the type of player who can create for himself and his teammates from any spot on the floor. You know, like LeBron or Kobe.



    Maybe it's optimistic to think Granger will morph into a beast in every aspect of the game. Can hard work alone really take someone so far? The best of the best all bust their tails. They also were born with qualities that put them far beyond excellence. For LeBron, it's vision and physique. Kobe has grace, Wade burst. "It's no insult to say Danny can't be as good as those guys," O'Brien says with a laugh. "Some guys are just the greatest of their generation." Granger gets that. In early February, moments after being congratulated on his All-Star invite by patrons at Sullivan's Steakhouse on the outskirts of Indianapolis, he addressed the aforementioned "third-tier" assessment. "I think it's accurate," he said. "Right now, other guys are a little better than me in some areas."
    Danny Sr. fidgeted in a white sweat suit beside his son. He clearly thought Danny Jr. was shortchanging himself. After all, he saw his son grow from a high school power forward who didn't make all-state into an NBA All-Star swingman. He heard the coaches at LSU tell Danny he wasn't good enough to play for the Tigers. To Danny Sr., who raised his three children alone after his wife deserted the family when Junior was 12, nothing is impossible, on the court or off.


    "He's a father," the younger Granger said with a smirk, as he shot a look toward his dad. "Parents always think their kids are the best. One time, I had 35 points and 15 rebounds in high school, and on the way home he told me he thought I was ready to go straight to the NBA. I said, 'Let's get a scholarship first.'"


    Father and son cracked up at the memory. But Granger's humor and modesty cloak something more cold. You can hear it in the preface to his steakhouse self-eval: Right now. Junior is as confident in his skills as Senior is. He believes he can attain not only the second tier of stardom but also the rare air of Kobe & Co. "I can definitely be the No. 1 guy on a really good team," he says without a hint of doubt. "People can say I'm not good enough, and I'll just keep proving them wrong—and smiling inside."
    Granger actually prefers to have naysayers. At this point, he says, love from all corners would just feel weird. He relishes the challenge.
    Just ask Ron Artest.
    Last edited by idioteque; 03-27-2009 at 10:44 AM.

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    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    Damn you beat me. I thought it was a good read. I think its pretty fair too. Why can't Danny get to that 1st tier? I personally think hes already in that second tier.

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    Member idioteque's Avatar
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    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    Damn you beat me. I thought it was a good read. I think its pretty fair too. Why can't Danny get to that 1st tier? I personally think hes already in that second tier.
    Well, seeing that I forgot to paste in the title (I will make the edit) I won't hold it against you.

    As for the article itself, it is a good and read I think parts of it underestimate Danny horribly, while parts of it were okay. What really stuck out for me was the fact that the consensus has just now emerged that Danny is "legitimate." By legitimate they almost meant in the way Primoz Brezec was not legitimate when he averaged 12 or whatever ppg during the Bobcats' inagural season, he is obviously not a 12 ppg scorer, that team just had very little talent. Or how Ron Mercer was illegitmate when he averaged 16 ppg for the pathetic Bulls, and then came over to Indiana and didn't average even close to that number. I thought that had been pretty well established that Danny is a legitimate 20+ ppg scorer.

    Funny how they're calling him a Pippen to a Jordan, I think, with the right talent around him, Danny can play a Reggie-caliber role for the Pacers. Give him a McKey, give him a Smits, give him a Mark Jackson, and the Pacers would be very, very, good. Maybe good enough to win the East, hell maybe good enough to win the whole damn thing. I assume that the chances of the Pacers ever acquiring a Kobe or LeBron level player are not good at all, and that we'll have to perservere through building a really good TEAM with a lot of very solid players.
    Last edited by idioteque; 03-27-2009 at 10:49 AM.

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    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    lol

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    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    Good article dc. I understand that some believe Danny shouldn't have been an All-Star but he deserved it. The All-Star game is about individual players and their season; the Playoffs are about successful teams and their season. The real question is...When does his game start to make those around him better and we start celebrating the team's success along with Danny's individual success?
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    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    If Danny Granger is a Scottie Pippen, then holy crap we're set for a while.

    Who knows what Danny is, its pretty clear he is not a slouch. He's also clearly got the work ethic to make himself better. I can't wait to watch him next year especially if he is able to add point forward skills to his offensive game.

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    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    Im looking more forward to those post skills than anything else mentioned. I can see him in the triple threat just having defenders not knowing what the hell to do to stop him.

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    Pacer Pride, Colts Strong Kid Minneapolis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    I like the Granger-Pippen comparison. I've been trying to figure out who his game most resembles for awhile now, without much luck, but it's not a stretch to compare him to Pippen. And that's not a bad thing at all --- Pippen was a top-50 all-time player according to some publications. Their games are fairly similar, their stats are similar at this point in their careers, I could see Granger getting to Pippen's production in a few years. Pippen was a terrific assist and rebounder at his position, as well as a 20-point scorer. Granger has the scoring down, and like he acknowledges, needs to improve his rebounding and passing. But I think he can do it.

    About the first-tier thing... I'm not going to put anything past him at this point. I honestly didn't think he'd ever even be a 3rd or 2nd-tier guy, and he's proved me wrong. I under-estimated his desire to improve. I don't think he's necessarily a tier-1 guy, but then again, I've been wrong so far on the other tiers, so what do I know?

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    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    Post up would be great, but I want to see him master his ball-handling first. He's already gotten a lot better, but he's not a master yet.

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    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Post up would be great, but I want to see him master his ball-handling first. He's already gotten a lot better, but he's not a master yet.
    Quote Originally Posted by ESPN
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    And Granger says he's determined to hone his post-up skills and develop a point forward's mentality and handle.
    looks like he's aiming for both.

    posting up seems to be a natural fit for danny's skills. the "point forward" stuff looks further away. but then, danny's ball handling has already improved by an unbelievable amount. who knows how much more he can improve.

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    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    I'm with the group that would rather see post skills. Sure, handling would be nice, but post skills would really make it nearly impossible to guard him. Get the post skills and then get the ball handling.

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    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    I like the Granger-Pippen comparison. I've been trying to figure out who his game most resembles for awhile now, without much luck, but it's not a stretch to compare him to Pippen. And that's not a bad thing at all --- Pippen was a top-50 all-time player according to some publications. Their games are fairly similar, their stats are similar at this point in their careers, I could see Granger getting to Pippen's production in a few years. Pippen was a terrific assist and rebounder at his position, as well as a 20-point scorer. Granger has the scoring down, and like he acknowledges, needs to improve his rebounding and passing. But I think he can do it.
    seth's been banging that drum for a while but mostly to compare the year by year improvement of pippen back then and granger now.

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    seth's been banging that drum for a while but mostly to compare the year by year improvement of pippen back then and granger now.
    Yes, and judging by his dogged persistence, I'm pretty sure he's banging it against his head.

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    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    If Danny wants the second tier, he has to decide to become a defender. Neither his effort nor his technique are up to snuff.

    It's fixable. It usually happens because of a red *** coming on the scene. Larry Brown made Reggie much better. KG made Paul Pierce much better.

    All that said, Danny's improvement has been great to watch.

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    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    I really don't understand the Pippen comparison. Their games aren't that similar. I thought the article was merely stating Danny is a #2 guy and not going to be the best player on a championship level team. Part of me agrees with that. Unless we somehow build a team that fields 5 starters who play their roles brilliantly.

    What Danny needs to maximize his talent is

    1) A post player that commands double teams inside.
    2) An elite PG that will draw attention and consistently get him open looks.
    3) TIME

  16. #16

    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    Anyone think Granger could win Most Improved Player?

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    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    As good as having a post up ability sounds, I'd much rather Danny work on his ball handling skills. Many good players in the NBA don't post much, or even at all. Plus, if JOB is going to play Danny at the 4 half the time, it would be more beneficial for him to just use his speed and drive past the defenders rather than post them up ('cause chances are that they're going to be bigger than Danny).

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    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    The ranking of tier 3 is probably pretty accurate. I think he's at the top of that list though...and has a shot at moving up.

    Every year he has noticeably improved...and next year will be telling. While I expected great things from him all along, I have been surprised at just how good he has become.

    Where would the Pacers be right now if they had picked Jarrett Jack or Gerald Green at #17?

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    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Where would the Pacers be right now if they had picked Jarrett Jack or Gerald Green at #17?
    Don't even want to think about it...

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    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    Quote Originally Posted by danman View Post
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    If Danny wants the second tier, he has to decide to become a defender. Neither his effort nor his technique are up to snuff.

    \
    T-Mac has never been an amazing defender. A motivated Vince Carter still doesn't defend very well. The only thing Danny has to do is keep this up season after season. Especially if Rush continues to develop at the two guard. Then we have a guy that can guard the other team's best wing.

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    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    Quote Originally Posted by Indy View Post
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    T-Mac has never been an amazing defender. A motivated Vince Carter still doesn't defend very well. The only thing Danny has to do is keep this up season after season. Especially if Rush continues to develop at the two guard. Then we have a guy that can guard the other team's best wing.
    Using T-Mac or VC isn't selling your point. Granger needs to improve his defense. He doesn't have to be the DPOY, but he should be a solid defender. The reason his defense has declined this year is because the team depends on him for offensive production -- it is difficult to completely carry your team offensively and then get back and guard the best player.

  22. #22

    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    I'm not claiming every great player has to be a good defender. Vince Carter and T-Mac are average when they care, poor when they don't. The magnificent Dr. J did not earn his doctorate locking up on people.

    But. These players were utterly unstoppable offensively at their best. Constantly getting to the free throw line, converting a good percentage from the field as they put up huge points per game.

    That isn't Danny, not even this year. If you really look at his game, he lacks creativity on getting shots off around the rim. He can't blow past any single defender.

    His offense has kept improving. I'm not claiming he can't make another step and get to offensive Olympus... but these particular abilities are rare and not the type that are learned after years in the league.

    However, defensively effort CAN change and Danny has the tools. He doesn't even show a solid grasp on fundamentals, which can also be learned in mid-career.

    I am very doubtful that Danny can get to Olympus as an offensive superstar. His skillset is not mindblowing. But Danny COULD become a very good defensive player, there's nothing really stopping him except for conditioning and some offseason work. If Danny stays at this level on offense, and gets his defensive game to approach the rest of it, he will be at superstar level. Maybe not media wise, because he isn't spectacular, but as a real basketball player.

    He isn't Pippen, but Pippen would be a damn good role model for Danny. They both have all around abilities, run the floor, block some shots, rebound, pass, etc. They have length to trouble lots of players, with enough quickness to hang with smaller guys. On a good team, they would be the #2 offensive option or maybe 1B. But Pip was a great defender both on the ball and in help D... may have been the best help defender in the league for about 5 years.
    Last edited by danman; 03-29-2009 at 12:45 PM.

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    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    Nice clarification.

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    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    Entering the same conversation as the likes of Wade, Lebron, Kobe is an astonishing feat in itself.

    It is tough to see where Danny could eclipse the best attributes of those players.

    Lebron is a better distributor
    Wade is a better slasher
    Kobe is a better scorer
    Durant is a better shooter (atleast a more natural shooter)

    Even if his ceiling is only at the top of tier 2 of NBA swing players and he does all those things at a very good level, I think its enough for him to be a #1 guy on a successful team.

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    Default Re: Really long ESPN Article on Danny

    Quote Originally Posted by danman View Post
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    I'm not claiming every great player has to be a good defender. Vince Carter and T-Mac are average when they care, poor when they don't. The magnificent Dr. J did not earn his doctorate locking up on people.

    But. These players were utterly unstoppable offensively at their best. Constantly getting to the free throw line, converting a good percentage from the field as they put up huge points per game.

    That isn't Danny, not even this year. If you really look at his game, he lacks creativity on getting shots off around the rim. He can't blow past any single defender.

    His offense has kept improving. I'm not claiming he can't make another step and get to offensive Olympus... but these particular abilities are rare and not the type that are learned after years in the league.

    However, defensively effort CAN change and Danny has the tools. He doesn't even show a solid grasp on fundamentals, which can also be learned in mid-career.

    I am very doubtful that Danny can get to Olympus as an offensive superstar. His skillset is not mindblowing. But Danny COULD become a very good defensive player, there's nothing really stopping him except for conditioning and some offseason work. If Danny stays at this level on offense, and gets his defensive game to approach the rest of it, he will be at superstar level. Maybe not media wise, because he isn't spectacular, but as a real basketball player.

    He isn't Pippen, but Pippen would be a damn good role model for Danny. They both have all around abilities, run the floor, block some shots, rebound, pass, etc. They have length to trouble lots of players, with enough quickness to hang with smaller guys. On a good team, they would be the #2 offensive option or maybe 1B. But Pip was a great defender both on the ball and in help D... may have been the best help defender in the league for about 5 years.
    I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you, but what I am disagreeing with is that if a healthy Vince Carter is a second tier wing in the NBA then Danny Granger's production this year is equal to that same billing. Vince Carter was a fantastic offensive player, capable of some really incredible plays, but utterly unstoppable offensively? I don't think so.

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