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Thread: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

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    Default 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    The Pacers have played 4 games in a row w/o giving up a 100 points to the opposition. All season long I've been upset about about the Pacers giving up 20 plus more points than in the last 4 games. What are the reason/reasons it's happening now?

  2. #2
    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    What are the reason/reasons it's happening now?
    As Foster said in the postgame show, they are playing better defense. In other words they are more alert and paying attention and doing what they are supposed to.

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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    The Pacers are putting in their annual "Desperation bid to make the playoffs" push, about 5-7 games too late. Per usual.

    I truly hope the other teams lose a few and we get a shot at claiming the 8th spot. But our 5 game losing streak really hurt us badly.

    It seemed to light a fire under us though, and we have played well shorthanded the last 2 games. There is still hope!
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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    I LOVE IT!!! Brandon Rush. That's the difference. Troy Murphy not getting blown by every other possession maybe.

    TJ Ford, Mike Dunleavy, and Troy Murphy would be a nasty 6-8 rotation.

    Sorry about the cynicism.

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    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    Jack
    Rush
    Granger
    Foster
    Hibbert

    That's a pretty good defensive squad right there. And still pretty good if you replace either Foster or Hibbert with Ford.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Member PacersRule's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    Talk about impressive!!

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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    I was pretty impressed with Brandon tonight. A couple rookie mistakes, but by and large he did a great job on Wade.
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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    I actually think opponents are scoring less because we are being slower on offense.

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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    it has been four games giving up 95 or less.....

    go pacers

    i cant quite identify it yet, but the pacers look better...in body language etc...

    maybe its dannys new shaved killah instinct haircut....

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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Jack
    Rush
    Granger
    Foster
    Hibbert

    That's a pretty good defensive squad right there. And still pretty good if you replace either Foster or Hibbert with Ford.
    Agreed. Not sure what kinda of experiment was going on at the end of the game with this lineup. It nearly doomed us.
    TJ
    JJ
    Brandon
    Granger
    Foster

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    Quote Originally Posted by JGray View Post
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    I actually think opponents are scoring less because we are being slower on offense.

    I was wondering about that but hadn't looked back at the games. I think I've only been able to watch the last 2 of these 4 games (IIRC).

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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  12. #12

    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    Or maybe it's because they're playing better defense.

    They've allowed opponents to shoot 41% for the past 4 games; a percentage that would put us nearly 2% ahead of all other NBA teams if sustained for a full season.

    Compare that to the 46% they'd allowed prior to those games. That's a 5% difference, and over 83.3 opponent FGA/game, you're looking at a 9-10 ppg difference just based on that. We've allowed 39.6% against opponents with our newest lineup.

    So to answer your question, I think the biggest difference is having more playing time devoted to:

    1. Roy
    -plays smarter than our other bigs
    -boxes out well allowing easier rebounds for our power forwards
    -despite foul troubles, his length causes problems for opponents near the rim

    2. Brandon
    -perimeter length disrupts opponents (singlehandedly put Wade out of rhythm tonight, imo)
    -great rebounder at the 2 and 3, eliminating offensive rebounds for opponents.

    And less playing time devoted to our weaker defenders. And Jarret's improved man-to-man defense (though he played poorly tonight).

    *edit*- Also, Jeff Foster's defense has been much, much better in the past month than at any other point in the season. He's really playing well right now and he's done a good job of staying in position.
    Last edited by imawhat; 03-26-2009 at 02:06 AM.

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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    Quote Originally Posted by JGray View Post
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    I actually think opponents are scoring less because we are being slower on offense.
    Quote Originally Posted by imawhat
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    Or maybe it's because they're playing better defense.

    Both! Opponents are taking fewer shots because of the tempo, and making a lower share of them because of the Pacer's stiffer defense.
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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    So is it fair to say to those O'Brien naysayers that he at least VALUES defense. Just because a team doesn't play good defense at times doesn't mean the coach doesn't care, on a professional level it more likely means that the players don't understand the system yet.

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    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    Quote Originally Posted by dcpacersfan View Post
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    So is it fair to say to those O'Brien naysayers that he at least VALUES defense. Just because a team doesn't play good defense at times doesn't mean the coach doesn't care, on a professional level it more likely means that the players don't understand the system yet.
    This has been discussed before, but prior to coming here, all three of Obie's full season teams finished in the top 10 in Defense. It's seems clear that the defensive scheme is overengineered, and there's no doubt that it has been a failure at times this year. However, the argument that Obie doesn't value defense was never anything other than fallacious.

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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    OB has been forced to slow the tempo AND play a lineup that has a better chance of playing good defense due to a higher amount of playing time by Rush. Hopefully, when Daniels gets through his wrist injury, things will improve even more.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    Quote Originally Posted by pacergod2 View Post
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    I LOVE IT!!! Brandon Rush. That's the difference. Troy Murphy not getting blown by every other possession maybe.

    TJ Ford, Mike Dunleavy, and Troy Murphy would be a nasty 6-8 rotation.

    Sorry about the cynicism.
    They've earned it.

    41 minutes by Rush who spent tons of time on Wade. In the mid-late 4th Wade couldn't find an open shot. The one late score he got was an intentional PnR to scrap Rush off of him and get him over to Granger. On the opposite side of the floor he beat Danny and then baited Foster into the air for the foul.

    When the other team tries to get you away from their top scorer it means you are making him uncomfortable.

    As I said way back in the prospect thread last year, Rush is McKey. Brilliant, smart defender without being a stat stuffer, reluctant on offense to the point that it irritates fans who know he has the ability to score more.

    Case in point in terms of "not in the box". Last play you had the ball go to Wade, one of the top FTA guys in the league (just ask Dallas). They only need 2 points. This means that Rush must worry about:

    A) a shot going to the rim or at the least inside the arc
    B) fouling Wade to give him FTs to tie
    C) the arc for the win

    Look at the shot Wade got/took. He faked Rush and Rush bit but not so hard as to foul. This forced Wade to reset and curl out to the 3. Rush tried to keep up and did get a hand near his face though not enough to really challenge the shot hard.

    But a big part of that was because Wade took such a quick, wild shot. Sure he got the "open" look, but you know he would have been better of drawing the foul on the shot fake, driving past on the shot fake, or just doing a catch and shoot off the in-bounds play.

    So no block, no steal for Rush. No stat. Because there is no stat for "defended enough to force the tougher shot without fouling one of the quickest guys in the NBA".

    This is what made McKey so critical to the Pacers too. But everyone hated that he wouldn't work his baby hook at the other end more, as if that was remotely as important as his work on the other end.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 03-26-2009 at 09:29 AM.

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    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    This has been discussed before, but prior to coming here, all three of Obie's full season teams finished in the top 10 in Defense. It's seems clear that the defensive scheme is overengineered, and there's no doubt that it has been a failure at times this year. However, the argument that Obie doesn't value defense was never anything other than fallacious.
    I definitely concede this point. I'm frustrated with JOB's lack of late game playcalling and we saw it yet again last night. There is no crunch time offensive system.

    But on defense they have been so much better with the PnR it's not even funny. They trap it well and depending on personnel they typically can force at least some ball movement and make teams play deeper into the shot clock.

    The defensive woes seem closely tied to who's on the court. There is no way JOB's system is swinging so wildly from 120 per to 95 per like it has.

    No Quis or Rush has typically meant problems right off the bat. Look at when Quis went down the last time. Brutal in PPG Allowed.

    Troy is better but that's not enough. He needs help. I can deal with one guy needing help. But TJ and Dun and Rasho also need help and when you see large doses of 2-3 of them on court together you see more problems.

    Frankly while Granger is a really great help defender he's not so hot on the ball. But have Rush force a guy into a tough spot, have Quis sniff out the passing lane and then let Danny come at a guy forcing up the awkward shot and you are seeing blocks and steals and the easy offense that comes from that.


    To be fair to fans in all this, hasn't JOB been the very reason some of the bad defensive rosters have seen so much playing time? We still don't get any McRoberts really and we still get a ton of small ball. His system may be fine, but his roster choices remain suspect when he's not been forced to play guys.

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    When OBrien had the ability to choose between a defensive lineup or an offensive lineup, he chose offense. Even when the more traditional lineup brought results when he was forced to use it and coach in a more traditional way, he went back to his offensive lineup as soon as he could.

    Until I see O'Brien truly sitting players for defensive failings and continually pushing a defensive lineup without being forced into that (by player injuries/availability), I will continue to say he doesn't value defense (not to the point he values offense).

    "Shoot the ball! You can't score if you don't shoot!"

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Banned Jonathan's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    Are we a better defensive team without Murphy? People have praised Maceo's D on this board. Mc Roberts is getting playing time?

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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    Bball, he values both. If you want to say he values offense more, fine, but that doesn't mean he doesn't value defense, or even that he doesn't value defense a lot.

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    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    JOB clearly overvalues defense when we aren't scoring enough, and overvalues offense when the opponent is scoring too much.

    Post hoc ergo propter hoc, you know.
    BillS

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    Boyle and Slick were talking last night about how O'B had changed the defense. Slick was saying that was why Wade wasn't getting all the layups he usually gets.

    I'm not an x&o guy so I really didn't know the specific's of what he was talking about.

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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    Boyle and Slick were talking last night about how O'B had changed the defense. Slick was saying that was why Wade wasn't getting all the layups he usually gets.

    I'm not an x&o guy so I really didn't know the specific's of what he was talking about.
    I could be wrong. but it seemed to me having Rush play SF at the end of game allowed him and Jack to switch on Wade. At first I thought it was odd to take Rush of Wade at the end of the game, but maybe this philosophy worked.

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: 4 Games of Not Giving Up 100 Points!

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    If you want to say he values offense more, fine,
    That's what I said. I even added that parenthetically so it wouldn't be confused because of course he values defense... at least somewhat.

    -Bball
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

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