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Thread: Back Court

  1. #1
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Back Court

    As much as I appreciate the energy and willingness to get into the paint that TJ has, I have to admit that he is frustrating me more than he is making me happy. I do not at all like having a PG who essentially makes a decision at the time line and is incapable of changing his action based on the defense. TJ has been an upgrade from what we had last year, but his flaws lead to too many turnovers and missed offensive opportunities.

    So, I thought I'd start this thread to talk about potential back court changes for next season. I know that the front court is the priority for most people, and that cap and tax considerations will enter in to decisions on what players to keep and what players to lose. However, since I am not good at watching other teams (except when they play the Pacers) or under-the-radar European or College players, I'm looking for some thoughts on what kind of back court mix is available to us.

    Personally, I would not be unhappy if somehow we could put TJ in a trade to help us get some aggressive front court help, going with Jack and (God help me) Diener at the point. I'd love to keep Marquis - though I don't think he is a great point, he is an excellent 2 especially on defense - but I suspect money issues will prevent that.

    Is there another point out there who would be about the same level as TJ but without the decision issues? Is there another point out there at about Jack's level that could take the second string spot and leave us Diener for spot minutes and third string?
    BillS

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  2. #2
    Banned Jonathan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back Court

    I like the idea of trading our first round pick and Tinsley to the Timberwolves for Brian Cardinal and their late first round pick and an early second round pick.

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    Default Re: Back Court

    I think TJ Ford is an incredibly hard PG to trade. He has a lot of injury issues and his decision making skills are somewhat suspect. He's one of those guys that I think few teams will ever take based on his talent, someday we may be able to trade him for something decent but I think that trade will be done as a cap deal for the other team, like the Cro trade to Dallas.

    I have stated in other threads that our back court problems are actually more confusing than our front court problems. Should we resign Jack at the risk of hindering Rush's development or is Rush always going to be a sixth man type player? If we resign Jack and trade Ford for something else (like front court help, don't think it could happen but not that point here) is Deiner good enough to be the #2 PG? I don't really know the answers to these questions.

    I think there is a 50% chance the Pacers will draft a point guard, and a 50% chance they will draft an enforcer type player like DeJuan Blair. Enforcers are much easier to find than effective PG's in the late lottery, though. I think Hibbert is going to be a very good NBA Center and we already have Danny as a proven commodity. I also think Rush will be a decent scorer and I look for him to find his shot next year. I have always favored having a facilitator PG like Mark Jackson over any score-first type PG. If a player has a rare ability to do both effectively, well that's great too, but I don't expect the Pacers to get that kind of player.

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    Get well PG! DGPR's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back Court

    I'm thinking a point guard is coming in this draft and we may just say bye bye to Daniels and Jack both.

    "I've got an idea--an idea so smart that my head would explode if I even began to know what I'm talking about." - Peter Griffin


  5. #5
    Banned Jonathan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back Court

    How do you guys feel about signing free agent to be Rodney Carney? I think he could help our team he has good size 6'7, and is athletic, How is his defense?

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    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back Court

    Our PG position may be more "consistent" than it was last year, but that does not mean we have improved at the position nor have found the long term solution.

    I'm close to a Dennis Green, "He is what I thought he is" meltdown on TJ.

    I'd keep Jack and start him at PG. I can live with Jack's limitations better than TJ's. But I also would have traded one of our expirings for an additional #1 so we could draft both a PF and PG this summer.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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  7. #7
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back Court

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Our PG position may be more "consistent" than it was last year, but that does not mean we have improved at the position nor have found the long term solution.

    I'm close to a Dennis Green, "He is what I thought he is" meltdown on TJ.

    I'd keep Jack and start him at PG. I can live with Jack's limitations better than TJ's. But I also would have traded one of our expirings for an additional #1 so we could draft both a PF and PG this summer.
    No, we've definitely not found a solution, but I'm still fine with the deal we made last year. It helped us a little financially, brought us Hibbert, and Ford, while disappointing, at least is on his way to playing 70+ games.

    I would be fine with Jack as the PG while we look for another, but trading one of our expirings was just not financially feasible.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Back Court

    You guys are funny.
    I think the weak front court we have is the exact reason you have TJ Ford scoring so much. Our roster consists of 1 big who plays outside, 2 bigs who just rebound, 1 big who sits on the bench, and a rookie big who can't stay out of foul trouble on a consistent basis (though he is playing much better second half of the season.). So I ask you who is going to score the points when at anytime you essentially only have 3 players on the floor who can score regularly. We dont' have a big man that Ford can dump it down to or hand off to on a dribble penetration.

    With this line up we will always have a point guard who must look to score. We are a low post threat away from being a great team.
    But right now we have 7'0fters who can't make layups.

  9. #9
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back Court

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    No, we've definitely not found a solution, but I'm still fine with the deal we made last year. It helped us a little financially, brought us Hibbert, and Ford, while disappointing, at least is on his way to playing 70+ games.

    I would be fine with Jack as the PG while we look for another, but trading one of our expirings was just not financially feasible.
    I'm fine with the deal as it was, but I would have been dangling Ford at every opportunity - he was and is to be veiwed as a trading piece, not a key member of the roster.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  10. #10
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back Court

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I'm fine with the deal as it was, but I would have been dangling Ford at every opportunity - he was and is to be veiwed as a trading piece, not a key member of the roster.
    Makes sense to me. I'm disappointed in Ford, mostly because of a lot of the things you said before the season, but I don't think he's an absolute disaster. He still is putting up decent numbers, so there may be a market.

    One of the Portland/Global mods on RealGM had suggested a Ford-for-Blake straight up deal...It seemed to make a lot of fiscal sense to me, without a huge downgrade in skill.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Back Court

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    Makes sense to me. I'm disappointed in Ford, mostly because of a lot of the things you said before the season, but I don't think he's an absolute disaster. He still is putting up decent numbers, so there may be a market.

    One of the Portland/Global mods on RealGM had suggested a Ford-for-Blake straight up deal...It seemed to make a lot of fiscal sense to me, without a huge downgrade in skill.

    Sign me up for that deal, but unfortunately the salaries don't match. Blake makes about half of Ford's salary. Blake is a pass 1st type PG, which is what I like, that can hit the 3 to keep the the opposing "D" honest.

  12. #12
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    Sign me up for that deal, but unfortunately the salaries don't match. Blake makes about half of Ford's salary. Blake is a pass 1st type PG, which is what I like, that can hit the 3 to keep the the opposing "D" honest.
    Portland's under the cap this summer...they don't have to take back equal salary.

  13. #13
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back Court

    Trade back into the mid-late first if Terrence Williams falls, make him your big PG ala Jax or Kidd (per my prospect thread rants).

    Of course with the tourney T'Will might be playing himself up to the Pacers actual draft slot and if that's the case I would take him there. I wish he'd stay low so they could get a big (Blair, Aminu) and get T'Will (with a trade to get the pick around 20 or so) but his buzz is really high coming out of the Big East tourney.


    If you can't move TJ and want to keep Jack it just seems like you are going to have more problems next year. Somehow they moved JO and yet still feel pretty stuck. To think that our worries were TJ's health, not his actual playing style (well, ChicagoJ was worried about style to his credit).

  14. #14
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back Court

    Quote Originally Posted by count55 View Post
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    Portland's under the cap this summer...they don't have to take back equal salary.
    What about equal talent?

    Honestly don't you think they see Blake as a better fit for them than TJ? Isn't his style exactly why Bayless might be seeing so little PT? Why get TJ to play how Bayless already can?

    It sucks how stuck we might be. Man, a Ford for T'Will trade would make my year, and it won't happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
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    How do you guys feel about signing free agent to be Rodney Carney? I think he could help our team he has good size 6'7, and is athletic, How is his defense?
    FWIW, Carney is in reality a lot closer to 6'4" than he is 6'7". Another guy with a magically inflated "listed" height.

  16. #16
    100 Miles from the B count55's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    What about equal talent?

    Honestly don't you think they see Blake as a better fit for them than TJ? Isn't his style exactly why Bayless might be seeing so little PT? Why get TJ to play how Bayless already can?

    It sucks how stuck we might be. Man, a Ford for T'Will trade would make my year, and it won't happen.
    Hey, it was a Portland fan who floated the idea...

  17. #17

    Default Re: Back Court

    Quote Originally Posted by theboyjwo View Post
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    You guys are funny.
    I think the weak front court we have is the exact reason you have TJ Ford scoring so much. Our roster consists of 1 big who plays outside, 2 bigs who just rebound, 1 big who sits on the bench, and a rookie big who can't stay out of foul trouble on a consistent basis (though he is playing much better second half of the season.). So I ask you who is going to score the points when at anytime you essentially only have 3 players on the floor who can score regularly. We dont' have a big man that Ford can dump it down to or hand off to on a dribble penetration.

    With this line up we will always have a point guard who must look to score. We are a low post threat away from being a great team.
    But right now we have 7'0fters who can't make layups.

    Nice alternate view with some possible validity.

    I'm in the camp that Ford is better than what the Pacers have had, but not the solution to the problem at PG. Although if he had a better front court, maybe things would be different. I'm just not sure, but I'm sure finding a new home for him with his contract would be a daunting task.

  18. #18
    Feed the big fella. Infinite MAN_force's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back Court

    It might be most realistic to just roll with what we have next season and than reevaluate. At that point, Murphy, TJ, dunleavy, Tinsley (or whatever we trade for possibly) are all becoming expiring contracts. This gives us a lot more options.

    Maybe trade a combo of expirings/picks for your new PG. I see Granger, Rush, Hibbert, Mcroberts, and Jack (backup PG/SG) as our future core right now, maybe consider retaining dunleavy depending on the price(and health). Starting PG that can distribute is my number one concern.
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  19. #19
    Feed the big fella. Infinite MAN_force's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    What about equal talent?

    Honestly don't you think they see Blake as a better fit for them than TJ? Isn't his style exactly why Bayless might be seeing so little PT? Why get TJ to play how Bayless already can?

    It sucks how stuck we might be. Man, a Ford for T'Will trade would make my year, and it won't happen.
    You really have me interested in this whole T'will idea, my only problem is you are the only person on the entire internet calling the dude a PG.

    It is one of those situations where you are either going to look like the smartest guy on earth, or just plain freaking looney tunes if this guy does or doesn't pan out. If one could really snag a Jax/Kidd style big PG with a pick in the 20s, that would be an absolute masterstroke.
    "As a bearded man, i was very disappointed in Love. I am gathering other bearded men to discuss the status of Kevin Love's beard. I am motioning that it must be shaved."

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  20. #20

    Default Re: Back Court

    To all the people hating on T.J. Ford for not being a distributor: the Pacers are currently fifth in the NBA in assists. Our offense simply isn't conducive to one player racking up a ton of assists. The offense is very open and pass heavy, i.e. everyone touches the ball, so both gaurds, forwards, and even big men can get assists. For example, we have a whopping 9 guys on our roster that average at least 1.7 assists per game. The Hornets on the other hand have only 3. So even though Chris Paul averages 11 assists per game, as a team we average more assists than the Hornets. So please cut T.J. some slack, he is a good pg, and much of the criticism of him on this board is unfounded.
    "Ever wonder what it's like to wonder what it's like to wonder, they get up out of bed but can't awaken from their slumber, they know what they've been told by those who know what they've been told, you see this hand me down knowledge generated ages ago, and I know what they've been told because I've been told the same thing, I had to broaden my horizons to expand on greater things..." Many Styles

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    Feed the big fella. Infinite MAN_force's Avatar
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    Default Re: Back Court

    I think it is less about assist numbers and more about him overdribbling and dominating the ball causing the offense to stagnate. This usually results in him putting up a bad shot or getting blocked. He seems to go in with a scorers mentality.
    "As a bearded man, i was very disappointed in Love. I am gathering other bearded men to discuss the status of Kevin Love's beard. I am motioning that it must be shaved."

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  22. #22

    Default Re: Back Court

    Quote Originally Posted by PostArtestEra View Post
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    To all the people hating on T.J. Ford for not being a distributor: the Pacers are currently fifth in the NBA in assists. Our offense simply isn't conducive to one player racking up a ton of assists. The offense is very open and pass heavy, i.e. everyone touches the ball, so both gaurds, forwards, and even big men can get assists. For example, we have a whopping 9 guys on our roster that average at least 1.7 assists per game. The Hornets on the other hand have only 3. So even though Chris Paul averages 11 assists per game, as a team we average more assists than the Hornets. So please cut T.J. some slack, he is a good pg, and much of the criticism of him on this board is unfounded.
    Its not the stats though that ppl are talking about. If you watch the kid, he over penetrates with the only thought in his head on the way to the basket is "how am I gna get this ball off the backboard to score". He then often times finds a big man in his face, and jumps in the air, and then finally looks to where he can pass the ball, this happen every single game, more then a couple times. He doesnt have good vision, its pretty clear.

    I wonder sometimes how he averaged 8 assists per game that one year in toronto bc I didnt really watch the raptors then to much. He would prefer to get the bucket and the 2 points, then set his teammate up for the bucket and the 2 points.

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Trade back into the mid-late first if Terrence Williams falls, make him your big PG ala Jax or Kidd (per my prospect thread rants).

    Of course with the tourney T'Will might be playing himself up to the Pacers actual draft slot and if that's the case I would take him there. I wish he'd stay low so they could get a big (Blair, Aminu) and get T'Will (with a trade to get the pick around 20 or so) but his buzz is really high coming out of the Big East tourney.


    If you can't move TJ and want to keep Jack it just seems like you are going to have more problems next year. Somehow they moved JO and yet still feel pretty stuck. To think that our worries were TJ's health, not his actual playing style (well, ChicagoJ was worried about style to his credit).
    What? Terrence Williams is a SG/SF not a point guard. Every draft site along with ESPN says this.

  24. #24

    Default Re: Back Court

    I'd like Ramon Sessions(FA) as the Pacers starting PG, but that just isn't going to happen. The thing with drafting a PG is just how much would JO'B willing to give him playing time to develop?

    Sessions a 07 2nd round pick and Chalmers a 08 2nd round pick are examples of finding a PG late in the draft, but again would JO'B take the time to develop a rookie PG. My guess is not really. My impression of O'Brien is he wants an established PG starting and an established PG as a b/u PG.

    If he's got 2 rookies, let's say a PF & PG, next season just how much is he going to truly play them with having to play Hibbert & Rush? Will he give them even as much PT as he did Hibbert and Rush while playing Hibbert & Rush?

    Then on the other hand with the Pacers losing numerous FA this summer and Dun's injury, O'Brien may not have much else to play. I just don't feel the Pacers will have the quality of players, the experience, nor the depth next year. IOW, another 08-09 season if that good. JMOAA

  25. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    I think it is less about assist numbers and more about him overdribbling and dominating the ball causing the offense to stagnate. This usually results in him putting up a bad shot or getting blocked. He seems to go in with a scorers mentality.

    Absolutely. We had and still have one of those still on the roster. It's not what is needed.

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