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Thread: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

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    Default Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    Indiana Pacers co-owner Herb Simon passionately says he doesn't want to see the city without his franchise.

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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    Moving this to the main forum.

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    Pacer Pride, Colts Strong Kid Minneapolis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    Ouch...

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    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    "Maybe the cost of keeping an NBA franchise in Indianapolis is more than the people of the city are willing to incur," Early said.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    I have no idea what i'm going to do if they move. Basketball is my life and my biggest passion, mostly centered around the Pacers. If they moved it would still be hard to just give up being a fan. I mean, i'd have to, but it will still be hard.

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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    Quote Originally Posted by JGray View Post
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    I have no idea what i'm going to do if they move. Basketball is my life and my biggest passion, mostly centered around the Pacers. If they moved it would still be hard to just give up being a fan. I mean, i'd have to, but it will still be hard.
    I would still follow the team, but it would suck not being able to watch the games on local tv.

    Where would be the most likely place they could end up? Las Vegas?

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    Pacer Pride, Colts Strong Kid Minneapolis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    Quote Originally Posted by Burtrem Redneck View Post
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    I would still follow the team, but it would suck not being able to watch the games on local tv.

    Where would be the most likely place they could end up? Las Vegas?
    God, how ironic would it be if they moved to Baltimore...

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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    They aren't going anywhere.



    RESIDENT COUNTING THREAD PHILOSOPHIZER

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    Seattle Supersonics reborn? Tampa Bay Pacers?

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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    We all know this because IndyStar had the story last week. I'm not certain if this is the MO here, taking the story national after the local story got little sympathy? Or is ESPN simply jumping aboard, late to the party?
    Bottom line is no business can continue to operate like this with the albatross that the Pacers work under. There are a number of businesses in today's climate out there that nobody ever thought would be facing similar decisions (and chose to bail). Just ask former GM employees...or ex DHL employees...or former Visteon people...

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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    It would be tough to see them move if it happened...but if they moved to Vegas it would be a little easier to swallow ROADTRIPS!!

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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    Nothing new here. The key bits are this



    Quote Originally Posted by Herb Simon
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    "I have no thought of leaving Indiana," he said. "Only a thought of preserving the Pacers and keeping them in Indiana. That's the only issue right here."

    and this
    Quote Originally Posted by Herb Simon
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    "We can handle the team," he said. "It's the operation of the facility that's causing us the problem. We're not asking anyone to pay for us. It's just the operating of the facility."

    Once again, we are reminded that Conseco Fieldhouse is a public facility that at the moment is in private hands. The change that is being talked about would return that public facility to public control. On principle, people ought to support that.
    And I won't be here to see the day
    It all dries up and blows away
    I'd hang around just to see
    But they never had much use for me
    In Levelland. (James McMurtry)

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    Pacer Junky Will Galen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    I live in Florida and don't pay Indiana taxs and don't go to Pacer games. If the Pacers move I will still follow them, so I'm really an outsider looking in.

    It appears to me after reading all the threads that the only sensible thing to do is for the city to take over the running of CFH. That appears to be the only choice and everything else is just talk.

    It's simple math. You lose the Pacers and you have to take over running CFH anyway, but you lose what the Pacers bring in.
    Last edited by Will Galen; 03-13-2009 at 07:21 AM.

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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    God, how ironic would it be if they moved to Baltimore...
    Does that mean Indianapolis gets to take the Cavs from Cleveland?

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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    I live in Florida and don't pay Indiana taxs and don't go to Pacer games. If the Pacers move I will still follow them, so I'm really an outsider looking in.

    It appears to me after reading all the threads that the only sensible thing to do is for the city to take over the running of CFH. That appears to be the only choice and everything else is just talk.

    It's simple math. You lose the Pacers and you have to take over running CFH anyway, but you lose what the Pacers bring in.
    True. When you break it down like that, the decision seems fairly obvious. In return, I think the city should ask for a lengthy commitment from the Pacers to stay in Indianapolis without any out clauses. The city will take over the operating expenses of Conseco, and the Pacers promise to remain in Indianapolis for 20 years. The last thing we want is for the city to take over Conseco, then 10 years down the road, the Pacers threaten to leave town if they don't upgrade.
    Turn out the lights, this party's over!

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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    I live in Florida and don't pay Indiana taxs and don't go to Pacer games. If the Pacers move I will still follow them, so I'm really an outsider looking in.

    It appears to me after reading all the threads that the only sensible thing to do is for the city to take over the running of CFH. That appears to be the only choice and everything else is just talk.

    It's simple math. You lose the Pacers and you have to take over running CFH anyway, but you lose what the Pacers bring in.
    So the city's choices are to take over the running of Conseco and pay 15mil per year to keep the Pacers...

    or...

    Let the Pacers walk and take over running Conseco at the cost of 15 mil per year.

    The only thing is, option #2 allows them to sell CFH, tear it down which ends the 15mil per yr obiligation, or utilize it how they see fit and reap 100% of the profits on those events.

    IMHO Option #2 isn't the worst thing for the city if they are truly looking at this from a realistic and prudent point of view with the taxpayers' best interests at heart and willing to push the Pacers on the issue.

    At least with option #2 you have some control and aren't in this situation again in 5 years.... 10 years... etc.. and expected to fork over even more money.

    As I keep saying there comes a time when someone in government needs to say "no". You simply cannot keep milking taxpayers for these luxuries that show fewer and fewer tangible benefits to the city. Bragging rights alone are not solely worth it.

    I don't want to see the Pacers leave either, but they need to find a way to make the product sustainable and self sufficient both inhouse and through the league. These taxpayer subsidies are skewing the market and player salaries and allowing these NBA franchises to ignore market realities or react much too slowly to them. Instead of fixing the real problem, they just ask the city/state for more money. Again, if the Pacers truly lost money in all but one year in their time at CFH then something is wrong besides the local government not showing them enough 'love'.

    And I absolutely don't believe Indy is that much different than any other city when it comes to tastes. They will have the same issues no matter where they go if they continue to operate the team in the same fashion. Sure, they might get a honeymoon period elsewhere and a deal from another city that is better... or simply 'different'.... but if nothing else changes internally with the team and the league then nothing is going to be any different externally either. In fact, the other option is possible too: It could be worse. At least the Pacers have some history here.

    Open the books. From what I gather there hasn't been a complete opening of the books. I still doubt the numbers.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    So let me understand - what would you put in place of CFH if you tore it down? A soaring office building packed full of people who can't find space in the current real-estate glut? Another parking lot? A homeless shelter?

    Tearing down CFH would be idiotic on a huge scale.

    Our best hope is that other owners are in the same boat and that players realize it isn't in their best interest to kill the golden goose.

    Here's my biggest question - if the CIB wasn't in a hole due to screwing up the negotiations with the Colts, would you still be against them operating CFH? If so, were you against them operating LOS?
    BillS

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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    IMHO Option #2 isn't the worst thing for the city if they are truly looking at this from a realistic and prudent point of view with the taxpayers' best interests at heart and willing to push the Pacers on the issue.


    If the city fathers were truly looking at this from a realistic and prudent point of view with the taxpayers' best interests at heart they would never have entered into agreements with the Colts or Pacers. No city would do that for a team, yet it's standard practice.

    As for opening the books who's to determine which figures to look at? Some people would say that their Mall income offsets their CFH loses.

    It looks to me like losing the Pacers is the worse course for the city anyway you look at it.

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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    Quote Originally Posted by Putnam View Post
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    Once again, we are reminded that Conseco Fieldhouse is a public facility that at the moment is in private hands. The change that is being talked about would return that public facility to public control. On principle, people ought to support that.
    I would support that if the users of the facillity paid rent for it. Essentially the Pacers and Colts, want state of the art stadiums but don't want pay or contribute even a share to pay for them, they don't want to pay anything to operate the stadiums even on days where it's their private business operating,they then want to collect all the revenue on game days and even revenue on non-game activities, and give nothing to their landlords.

    I guess I got problems with that.
    Last edited by MarionDeputy; 03-13-2009 at 11:49 AM. Reason: Their and There....get's me everytime....
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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    From what I've noticed the past couple of years, CFH is really underutilized. They hardly have any major concerts anymore or other events and this is most likely because the Simons are trying to keep the operating costs low. They have to pick up the tab during the offseason and for those other events so it seems they're trying to keep things to a minimum.

    IMO, the best outcome would be for the city to take over the building expenses for non-Pacers and Fever related events. That way they can bring in major concerts, the circus, conventions, whatever they want when the Pacers aren't in town and generate some additional revenue. It may not be a great option but it might be better than losing the team outright and having to take control of an unoccupied building.
    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81
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    Larry is not coming back, he didn't have a meeting with Orlando for not reason, yeah he is coming back to the NBA but not to the Pacers, the notion that he is a taking a year off and then come back is absurd.
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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    The part where Simon says they can handle the team expenses, but not the fieldhouse really gets to me.

    To me, it means:

    They can handle paying Reggie a 6 or 12 million "thank you" contract, plus a Bentley.

    They can handle paying a max to Croshere after a couple good games in a playoff series.

    They can handle paying multiple coaches contracts as well as multiple "GM" contracts.

    They can handle a 6 million per year (I'm guessing here) extension to a center with a bad back who can't hit a layup.

    They can spend a boatload on European scouting that enriches the team with Stanko and Lorbek.

    They can spend big bucks on outside consulting firms to tell them their team needs to clean up its act for PR purposes. (Something anyone with any sense could have figured out.)

    They can handle throwing a huge expensive fund raiser for Hillary Clinton plus donating who knows how much to her campaign.

    But, they can't handle paying rent on the facility THE TAXPAYERS paid for to give THEIR team a place to play. (Was Market Square Arena really that bad a place, to begin with? What was wrong with it, other than it wasn't new?)

    You guys can tell me I'm wrong, or add your own pet peeves to my list, but this is really bugging me.
    Last edited by Tom White; 03-13-2009 at 10:45 AM.

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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    So basically it is this:

    Who will cover the check for the building? And since the Pacers are penciled in, why would the city further put themselves in shambles for it? If the Pacers just up and move do they still have to cover the lease?

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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    Do the Pacers reap the benefit of the parking, concessions, etc? If so, shouldn't those things go to the entity running the fieldhouse? I mean, to me, it's one way or the other. If the CIB will foot the bill for operating expenses then they should get what that produces, the parking and concessions or at least a big ole chunk. If the Pacers pay for the guys that tell me where to park and the guy who gets my beer, then the Pacers should get the profit on $8 parking and a $6 beer. Is this too simplistic of a thought process?

    I guess what does running the fieldhouse consist of Electric bill, ticket takers, and Green Jackets, along with the Parking and consessions.

    If the question is, okay the city pays for all of the expenses and the Pacers get to keep all of the inflow of money. How does that make any sense?

    This coming from the guy that believes you do almost whatever it takes to keep them here.

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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    Quote Originally Posted by MarionDeputy View Post
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    I would support that if the users of the facillity paid rent for it. Essentially the Pacers and Colts, want state of the art stadiums but don't want pay or contribute even a share to pay for them, they don't want to pay anything to operate the stadiums even on days where it's there private business operating,they then want to collect all the revenue on game days and even revenue on non-game activities, and give nothing to their landlords.

    I guess I got problems with that.

    I'm right there with this.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Indiana Pacers future in jeopardy from financial losses [ESPN]

    Quote Originally Posted by Tom White View Post
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    The part where Simon says they can handle the team expenses, but not the fieldhouse really gets to me.

    To me, it means:

    They can handle paying Reggie a 6 or 12 million "thank you" contract, plus a Bentley.

    They can handle paying a max to Croshere after a couple good games in a playoff series.

    They can handle paying multiple coaches contracts as well as multiple "GM" contracts.

    They can handle a 6 million per year (I'm guessing here) extension to a center with a bad back who can't hit a layup.

    They can spend a boatload on European scouting that enriches the team with Stanko and Lorbek.

    They can spend big bucks on outside consulting firms to tell them their team needs to clean up its act for PR purposes. (Something anyone with any sense could have figured out.)

    They can handle throwing a huge expensive fund raiser for Hillary Clinton plus donating who knows how much to her campaign.

    But, they can't handle paying rent on the facility THE TAXPAYERS paid for to give THEIR team a place to play. (Was Market Square Arena really that bad a place, to begin with? What was wrong with it, other than it wasn't new?)

    You guys can tell me I'm wrong, or add your own pet peeves to my list, but this is really bugging me.
    And I'm right there with this too.

    As long as cities and states keep subsidizing these sporting ventures to the levels they do, and bending over backwards to every threat or veiled threat, then the teams and league don't have to react to market realities. Player salaries escalate. Marketing takes a backseat. There's 'extra' money to give someone an empty title or pay multiple people for the same basic job.

    The problem is not an Indianapolis problem, it's a Simon and NBA problem. They are just making it an Indianapolis (and Indiana) problem and the CIB is allowing them to do it.

    Discussing the Colt deal is meaningless because that is crying over spilled milk.That one is already done. This is compounding the problem. They can't afford THAT deal so how can they now add this extra for the Pacers on there too? Other than using it as a lesson in guiding cities in future endeavors of this type it serves no useful purpose to say "The Pacers deserve what the Colts got". Not when the Colts don't even deserve what the Colts got or else deserve it or not, it can't be afforded.

    If the city is going to pay to own and operate a building, they should see some profit sharing DIRECTLY from that. Not mythical, hard to define "benefits". And then that is compounded when they basically GIVE the building to the teams without even a damage deposit.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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