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Thread: College v Pros (officiating)

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    Default College v Pros (officiating)

    I was watching the Arizona v Arizona State game last night and I got to thinking - I really like the officiating in the college game a lot more than the pro version.

    I've been watching college ball a bit more than I used to over the last couple of years. I'm from Australia but moved to Canada a few years ago, so I have a lot more opportunities to see college games now. The games are called much more true to the rules (no one gets away with traveling for example), but the action still flows a lot better.

    I'm a pro-ball guy before a college-guy. This isn't a rant about how college-ball is better than the pros or anything like that. It's just an observation.

    I think the biggest difference is that there's no "star treatment" - the biggest problem with NBA officiating. As a result there are (or at least seem to be) less whistles. With less interruptions, the game seems to move at a better pace.

    I can't stand it that when I see Kobe Bryant or Lebron James drive into the lane, I know they will either score or will go to the foul-line. You just know the refs will bail them out whether it's a foul or not. I never got that feeling when Jordan Hill had the ball during the game last night. I knew he'd have to earn his points like everyone else.

    How many times do you hear about a rookie having to "gain respect from the officials"? Why does he have to gain the respect of the officials? He either fouls or he doesn't, he either travels or he doesn't. There's no "well he's a rookie so it's a foul/he's Lebron James so it's not a walk". Or at least there shouldn't be.

    People are always complaining about NBA officiating, but you don't hear the same criticism for the college game.

    My question is; why can't the pro game be officiated in the same manner as college - true to the rules and the same for everyone? Which begs the other question, why is it different in the first place? It can't just be to improve player marketability can it?

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    They all are terrible all-over this year. Whether it is pro or academically-based leagues.

    To answer your last question, Pro games are officiated differently because of the stature of the players. This all goes back to the last second of the Cleveland game two weeks ago.

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    Quote Originally Posted by pacerDU View Post
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    I was watching the Arizona v Arizona State game last night and I got to thinking - I really like the officiating in the college game a lot more than the pro version.

    I've been watching college ball a bit more than I used to over the last couple of years. I'm from Australia but moved to Canada a few years ago, so I have a lot more opportunities to see college games now. The games are called much more true to the rules (no one gets away with traveling for example), but the action still flows a lot better.

    I'm a pro-ball guy before a college-guy. This isn't a rant about how college-ball is better than the pros or anything like that. It's just an observation.

    I think the biggest difference is that there's no "star treatment" - the biggest problem with NBA officiating. As a result there are (or at least seem to be) less whistles. With less interruptions, the game seems to move at a better pace.

    I can't stand it that when I see Kobe Bryant or Lebron James drive into the lane, I know they will either score or will go to the foul-line. You just know the refs will bail them out whether it's a foul or not. I never got that feeling when Jordan Hill had the ball during the game last night. I knew he'd have to earn his points like everyone else.

    How many times do you hear about a rookie having to "gain respect from the officials"? Why does he have to gain the respect of the officials? He either fouls or he doesn't, he either travels or he doesn't. There's no "well he's a rookie so it's a foul/he's Lebron James so it's not a walk". Or at least there shouldn't be.

    People are always complaining about NBA officiating, but you don't hear the same criticism for the college game.

    My question is; why can't the pro game be officiated in the same manner as college - true to the rules and the same for everyone? Which begs the other question, why is it different in the first place? It can't just be to improve player marketability can it?
    For the regular season I agree 100 percent. It seems to do a 180 come playoffs/March Madness time. NBA officiating actually improves slightly, though there still is super star treatment. College actually becomes more biased it seems. It's almost like the refs pick numbers out of a hat and decide who they are going to be blowing the whistle for.

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    It kind of depends on the conference.

    In the Big Ten, for example, the officiating is heavily biased in favor of the home team.

    In the tourney, you have "name" programs like Duke getting the calls. This is the NCAA equivalent of "superstar" calls, except they go to an entire team rather than a single player. In fact, the '92 IU/Duke game was the most biased game I've ever seen in any sport at any level.

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    Gotcha. I probably haven't seen anywhere near the amount of college games you guys have. Maybe 100 in my life? From what I've seen however, I've liked the officiating much more on the college level.

    I'll have to watch a bit more. We get a lot of Big Ten coverage on my cable provider for whatever reason so I'll keep an eye out for the "homer" calls you mentioned Shade.

    I'll be watching March Madness pretty closely this year as well...

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    It kind of depends on the conference.

    In the Big Ten, for example, the officiating is heavily biased in favor of the home team.

    In the tourney, you have "name" programs like Duke getting the calls. This is the NCAA equivalent of "superstar" calls, except they go to an entire team rather than a single player. In fact, the '92 IU/Duke game was the most biased game I've ever seen in any sport at any level.
    Don't get me started on Big Ten refs... They suck in every sport.

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    I used to feel the same way but I've noticed more poorly officiated games in college than ever this year. Don't know what's going on but the random whistles (by random I mean not calling something a foul all game, then suddenly deciding to) have really increased.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    It kind of depends on the conference.

    In the Big Ten, for example, the officiating is heavily biased in favor of the home team.

    In the tourney, you have "name" programs like Duke getting the calls. This is the NCAA equivalent of "superstar" calls, except they go to an entire team rather than a single player. In fact, the '92 IU/Duke game was the most biased game I've ever seen in any sport at any level.

    That was arguably due to Ted Valentine and Bob Knight's lack of mutual respect if we're going to go there... and Valentine's 'opportunity'...

    I believe the college game is officiated better than the pro game as well. I believe there's a lot of WWF (WWE.... whatever) in the pro game.

    I think NBA officials take 'entertainment' too much into the equation.

    Let me rephrase what I said.... Whether the college game is officiated 'better' than the pro game or not I personally believe the attempt is there to call it fairly.

    Pros or college there will be certain players who get the benefit of the doubt due to their reputation. If you get the reputation as a defensive ballhawk then you stand a better chance of getting the benefit of the doubt. But we're not talking benefit of the doubt, we're talking refs swallowing their whistles in order to let a star travel or make some play that wasn't possible without allowing him something 'extra'.

    Earning the respect of the officials is another thing entirely and I don't think it's the same as what I was just mentioning. ...And it's wrong. A foul is a foul. Call it the same both ways.

    The college game has a lot going for it as far as fan excitement. Some of it is kids rooting for their schools, alumni rooting for their alma mater, and people rooting for their area college. But I think the shorter schedule makes each game more important. ...And I think the more balanced officiating doesn't turn fans and (importantly) basketball purists off like the 'star rules' of the NBA does.
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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    I like how they let things go in college. It really has to be a foul for it to be called. If you breathe on a guy in the NBA you get called for a foul.

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    ..I believe there's a lot of WWF (WWE.... whatever) in the pro game.

    I think NBA officials take 'entertainment' too much into the equation.

    I agree totally with this. There seems to be a concerted effort on the part of NBA officials to make a call that will help the entertainment value of the game. "It was a travel, but I won't call it because the dunk was awesome" or "he played good defense, but he was defending a star and he's *meant* to score, so it must've been a foul".

    There should be none of that thought process from the refs. Their role should be as robotic as possible.

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    I will say this much about the college game vs the pro game. The college stadiums are usually crazy loud. The student bodies make tons of noise and I think it facilitates how games are called a lot of the time. Agreed 100% that come March madness a lot of the "big" time programs get most of the calls. I remember the Duke 2001 run when they played Maryland and then Arizona and to be honest it did seem very biased and I was ruiting for Duke that year. Fan involvement does facilitate calls. So the louder the environment the more favoritism the officials will show.

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    I agree that superstar treatment is the single worst thing about NBA officiating. The second worst thing is that there are a select group of refs who feel like they are part of the show, and need to get their share of "look at me" moments into every game.

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    When I used to watch college ball (about 10 years ago) I used to think NBA refs were much, much better than college. who knows today

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    I agree that superstar treatment is the single worst thing about NBA officiating. The second worst thing is that there are a select group of refs who feel like they are part of the show, and need to get their share of "look at me" moments into every game.
    Nate did a backflip while shooting the 3 ball and got the call. Goodness, he is a flop master. 19 ft attempts.
    "I keep wondering the same thing. Last week they had the 4th worst record in the league, had an 11.9 percent chance of winning the lottery and were in line to land a franchise type player like Derrick Favors or DeMarcus Cousins. This week? They have a 1.7 percent chance of winning the lottery, have the 8th worst record and are in line to draft Cole Aldrich or Greg Monroe. Way to go Jim O'Brien. Rest Danny Granger the rest of the season (if it isn't too late) and give Josh McRoberts lots of minutes. That ought to do it." - Chad Ford on winning meaningless games

    Way to go Jim, you may have just put our franchise back another 4+ years.

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    I think the college officials are much better when it comes to charge/block calls then the NBA

    Not sure if the Divac's of the world ruined the NBA game, but the charge is way too uncertain in the NBA

    Not only is there that dreaded half circle of death, but players don't even have to be set any longer.

    Players are unable to use there size anymore. If they make contact the opposing player can just flop and so much for that advantage.

    There's a difference between overpowering someone, and bulldozing someone.

    There's also a difference between being set and moving

    In college I think these rules are more universal, and this makes for better parody and allows cinderella schools a chance , in the NBA, it depends on the ref, the player and the team. And more likely then not, the teams you expect to win, are usually there towards the end

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    When I used to watch college ball (about 10 years ago) I used to think NBA refs were much, much better than college. who knows today
    When I was younger, I used to say that NBA refs were crooked, while college refs were incompetent.

    While I do think NBA refs do have too keen of a sense of who is actually playing (ie...there is star treatment), overall I've decided they aren't crooked, per se (except for Donaghy).

    College refs, however, are still incompetent. It never ceased to amaze me when I watch some 60-something, overweight ref crew trying to chug up and down the court and see the game. I remember when the NBA went from two- to three-man crews, and how much it helped the officiating. College officials are so often out of position, it's ridiculous with three-man crews. Hell, they labor so much, I often wonder if they just shouldn't have six-man crews, three for each end of the court.

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    Quote Originally Posted by pwee31 View Post
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    I think the college officials are much better when it comes to charge/block calls then the NBA

    Not sure if the Divac's of the world ruined the NBA game, but the charge is way too uncertain in the NBA

    Not only is there that dreaded half circle of death, but players don't even have to be set any longer.

    Players are unable to use there size anymore. If they make contact the opposing player can just flop and so much for that advantage.

    There's a difference between overpowering someone, and bulldozing someone.

    There's also a difference between being set and moving

    In college I think these rules are more universal, and this makes for better parody and allows cinderella schools a chance , in the NBA, it depends on the ref, the player and the team. And more likely then not, the teams you expect to win, are usually there towards the end
    In NBA the refs look at the offensive player to determine whether it is a charge or not. In college they mainly look at the defensive player. In college you have to be set. In the NBA you don't have to be set, just must have position.

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    In NBA the refs look at the offensive player to determine whether it is a charge or not. In college they mainly look at the defensive player. In college you have to be set. In the NBA you don't have to be set, just must have position.
    Not really.

    In the pros if a player's moving and someone like a Paul Pierce or Iverson throws a shoulder into him and intiates the contact, the foul goes on the defender. In college that foul usually is called on the offensive player or it's a no-call.
    The poster formerly known as Rimfire

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    In NBA the refs look at the offensive player to determine whether it is a charge or not. In college they mainly look at the defensive player. In college you have to be set. In the NBA you don't have to be set, just must have position.
    I think there's been some unintended consequences from the arc under the basket in this regards. I've mentioned before that they are calling blocks that should be no-calls (and would have before the circle), but I also think that the defender is getting a little unexpected advantage.

    In Sunday's game, Roy Hibbert drew a charge on one of the Bulls. He jumped out of the circle, then kind of leaned his shoulder to the right to catch the driver. It should have been a block, but the official pointed at the floor, then signaled offensive foul. To me, it was obvious that the ref was focused on making sure Roy's feet had cleared the circle, and he missed the upper body action that was the foul.

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    Not really.

    In the pros if a player's moving and someone like a Paul Pierce or Iverson throws a shoulder into him and intiates the contact, the foul goes on the defender. In college that foul usually is called on the offensive player or it's a no-call.
    I've seen plenty of offensive fouls called on this in the NBA, including one (correctly) on Jarrett Jack in the fourth last night.

    However, when it's Pierce or Iverson, that's when you get the star treatment factor that may override what I think is a pretty consistent call in the NBA.

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    Quote Originally Posted by DisplacedKnick View Post
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    Not really.

    In the pros if a player's moving and someone like a Paul Pierce or Iverson throws a shoulder into him and intiates the contact, the foul goes on the defender. In college that foul usually is called on the offensive player or it's a no-call.
    Not true - I mean I understand your point - but it really doesn't happen as often as it seems

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    NBA officiating caters to Star players and teams. It's been that way for awhile.

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    NBA refs are inherently better than college refs, just as NBA players are better than college players.

    If the college refs were better, they'd be in the NBA.

    It wasn't about being the team everyone loved, it was about beating the teams everyone else loved.

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    NBA refs are inherently better than college refs, just as NBA players are better than college players.

    If the college refs were better, they'd be in the NBA.
    agree 100%. I do think the NBA game is much more difficult to officiate


    In the good old days charging was rarely if ever called, so much so that defenses rarely if ever tried to get a charge. You never saw big guys try to take charges, instead they tried to block shots. I miss the old days.

    Jeff probably shouldn't have played, but he is the only player we have that is equiped to guard Al. Troy cannot, Rasho and Roy are too slow. maybe Baston might have done a decent job, but I inderstand JOB's quandry.

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    Default Re: College v Pros (officiating)

    Quote Originally Posted by Kstat View Post
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    NBA refs are inherently better than college refs, just as NBA players are better than college players.

    If the college refs were better, they'd be in the NBA.
    My argument isn't necessarily that college refs are better than NBA refs. I'm referring more to the style of reffing and the interpretation of the rules.

    In brief, what it seems to me is that the NBA game is officiated to cater towards players, whereas the college game appears to be catered more towards teams.

    Now that could simply be a by-product of the style of the college game which is much more team-based. However, I just don't see the star-treatment and lack of strict loyalty to the basic rules regarding traveling that I do in the NBA.

    I think my biggest gripe is the star treatment. You just don't see one player go to the line 15 times in one game in college, but you do all the time in the pros. I just wish NBA officiating was more impartial.

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