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Thread: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

  1. #1
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    Default Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    Well I'm sure this thread is going to stir up some opinions! This has been on my mind for awhile, and I'm wondering if anyone else out there feels the same way. Perhaps I should've waited until I'm more known around here to post an opinion piece, oh well, dish out the heat if you want I won't take it personal!

    Fans Bear Responsibility for Pacers Current Problems


    With the draft deadline looming and the Pacers looking like they will stand pat, this seems like a good time to point out something that really needs to be said. And it’s not going to make anyone happy. No doubt, the team has a responsibility to our community. When the team knowingly hires players and personnel that the fans will be ashamed of, and continues to employ these miscreants for the sake of winning, then we very well should speak with our wallets, as fans have done for the past five years.

    But here’s what most of us have overlooked: the fans have a responsibility as well. When Manning and the rest of the current Colts have moved on, and the team once again endures a couple of tough years while they make an honest and dedicated effort to rebuild, we as fans have a responsibility to honor the wonderful years the team gave us, and the great things they did for our community, and stick with them as true, die-hard fans.

    We honor a team by staying true through the bad times, because we understand that the owners are trying with good faith to rebuild a team that we can one day be proud of. And I say that the fans of this city have done wrong by the Pacers in the last two years. It is their attitudes and demands that have put the team in a position that will make it very difficult for them to build a contending team until 2010 or later.

    The pacers management has been faithfully working to clean house for the past two years. The only piece left from the dark days is a player who has effectively been banished from the team, and is with the Pacers now only as a financial albatross The Pacers bought this lead weight when they inked a contract with a guy who was a behavioral risk. But we, the fans, secured that weight with a 14 million dollar padlock by essentially demanding that Tinsley disappear from the team before the fans would return. Now, a year after his final game to date, he has sat at home in contract-limbo, unable to be cut loose from his contract and becoming with time less and less of an asset that might be traded. Today he is virtually incapable of being traded, and the chunk of salary cap room he takes up means we are unable to construct a contending team until after 2011.

    My feeling is that if efforts to trade Jamaal were allowed to play out, and the man was not banished from the team in order to placate the fans, then he would still have decent trade value. But that wasn't an option and now the decision to send him into exile is costing the team millions in payroll.

    Conversations I have with the average person regarding the Pacers, these days, brings the same responses I heard two, three, four years ago. They’re thugs. I won’t let my kids watch them. Until the team gets rid of all the bad apples, I don’t care about them. And more recently: The team is a joke. They’re no good. Bird should be fired for putting together this lousy team. Guess what? The bad apples are gone. All gone. We have a team we should be proud of, players with great heart, and the will to win. Meanwhile attendance has only marginally improved from where it was two years ago, and by and large the negative attitudes persist. We’ve spoken with our attendance, effectively condemned a good and honest effort by the Pacers, and therefore forced the team to spend the next two years in salary-cap purgatory. So when I hear people on the street badmouth the Pacers now for being uncompetitive, I’m sorely tempted to remind them that their failures, hand in hand with the Hoosier values we expect them to possess, are a reflection on us fans as well.

    -- ToasterBusVIP

  2. #2
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    It's a two way street. You can't expect fans to commit their hearts and wallets to a team that they aren't sure the owner/management is willing to do the same.

    The Pacers continued to pile bad decisions on top of bad decisions and instead of putting their effort into correcting those mistakes, they looked to come up with a marketing slogan, PR spin, and sticking their heads into the sand instead of meeting the challenges head on.

    I do think to some degree the public trusted them... for a while. But that trust wasn't endless and that is why they find themselves in the position they are now.

    They ignored reality and ignored the fans. Worse, they didn't just ignore fans, they looked down on them when the fans were the ones right all along.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

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    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    What prompted me to write this commentary was my feeling that public opinion, and public awareness of Management's current efforts, is lagging very far behind. You see this when you talk to some of the general population around here, that opinion is still stuck on 'they need to clean up their act first'.

    At what point, then, does a lack of awareness about the team's changes and efforts start to reflect poorly on the fan base? Are people still not convinced the team has committed themselves to integrity? Or are they not aware of what the Pacers are now because they simply aren't bothering to pay attention? When I hear comments like "they should cut all the troublemakers. Fire them all and start over" that tells me that this person doesn't understand that is not reality in the NBA. Unwanted players, in most markets especially ours, must be traded or allowed to expire. Public sentiment seems to be strongly that TPTB didn't admit they needed to change things until this year, when some of us understand that they have been, piece by piece, offloading the troublemakers in a way that would allow us some hope for the future. I think attendance last year finally drove TPTB to mortgage the P's short team future in order to placate the fans, when they banished Tinsley.

    To be sure there will be leaders, fans who are the first to come back and their praises will start to drown out the negativity still lingering over the casual watercooler-conversation one hears about our team. Are we maybe not past the point where we should have begun rewarding what has been an honest effort to fix things, and has been IMHO since the GSW trade?

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    Well, the problem (as I see it) is how far they allowed things to go down the toilet before finally admitting there was a real problem. They allowed a large portion of the fanbase to first become polarized and then finally to become apathetic.

    Many sensed they were being taken for a ride, or sensed they cared more than the organization cared about the team.

    IMHO Pacer marketing has sucked for quite some time. Even now it could stand some improvement. I don't think it's been merely, bad... I think it's flat out sucked. Then at the end of the day they went into a PR spin type of marketing that had no legs and quickly was derailed.

    People aren't stupid. You might get over a speed bump with that type of thing but you aren't going to mask and get over the problems as large as the Pacers suffered with that type of marketing.

    Now you have a potential market that is saying "Show me, don't tell me". They won't be fooled and they won't be patient.... and they're past being tolerate.

    Meanwhile, there are real positives happening but some of those positives are being lost by an Indiana team playing horrid defense. Most basketball purists aren't going to be impressed with that. And that is assuming these people can even be exposed to the team. Every game is buried on cable or satellite. You actually have to search for the game on Directv because it's on a channel that is dark 90% of the time unless a Pacer game is playing. You're not going to get many casual fans just scanning channels that way.

    Leaving broadcast TV entirely does have disadvantages but it is what it is. I'm not sure a local broadcast channel would even be interested in any games right now.

    Actually, saying "every" was the wrong word because several games aren't televised at all locally.

    Last I checked the radio network had several holes in coverage as well.

    And Pacer marketing still doesn't expand very far outside of I465.

    So you're asking fans to care again when the last time they looked, it didn't appear that TPTB cared all that much themselves. ...And past marketing efforts turned into little more than lies thanks to some of the characters on this teams' payroll. ..So it isn't like these people are going to immediately believe just any slogan appearing on a billboard.

    This is going to be a long process to win fans back.

    The banishment of Tinsley is another issue... but I don't feel it's the handling of Tinsley NOW that is the problem... it's the handling of Tinsley in the past that was the problem. The Tinsley situation was allowed to fester until this was the only logical recourse for the team and is the corner it painted them into. It's just one more example of bad management and ignoring the reality of what was happening with the team and the team's image.

    It really is:
    Fool me once, shame on you... Fool me twice, shame on me.

    That doesn't mean the Pacers have to quit marketing, but it has to be a legitimate effort and not PR spin. And they need to expand their horizons while they are at it (IMO).
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    Hopefully fans and management will be able to agree with each other soon
    otherwise it will be buh-bye, and neither group will have to worry about each other.
    Personally I believe the management is trying to put a good team together, one fans
    can be pround of. I have enjoyed watching this team this year despite the record, which
    with the loss of Granger may not win another game. For the people out there still calling
    the Pacers a bunch of thugs, they are either envious or racially motivated. I can see no
    other reason for them to continue to hold that view. Maybe they have no clue who is
    on the Pacers.
    {o,o}
    |)__)
    -"-"-

  6. #6

    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    As much as people talk about the importance of morals and ethics- what they really care about is winning. Anyone who won't admit to that is a hypocrite. I don't think fans should be content with a winning team made of criminals, but when a fan pays for his ticket he wants to be a part of something special- A PO push/ An amazing play.... He doesn't want to pay to watch his team lose- that's the bottom line. I'm not saying that's the way it should be, on the contrary- for example in English football every game is a sell out. the football tradition is rooted so deeply into the English society that even when a team has nothing to play for and is losing badly, you still won't find an empty seat in the stadium. Fans in the US are different, I don't know why.

    In any case the fans in Indy have spoken
    1. "Bird, get rid of the thugs"- check.
    2. "Bird, Make this team a winning team again". (only then will we be back filling those seats)

  7. #7
    Banned Jonathan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    I do not think the Pacers dealing Step Jackson & Al Harrington for Murphy and Dunleavy was that terrible of a deal. We were not going to win a championship or even a playoff series with Al Harrington. He is a "me" first not a "team" first player. Look what he did in Golden State this year.

    Step Jackson is a very good player, but the NBA is a business.

    Jermaine O'neal is not a thug.

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    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by ToasterBusVIP View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Well I'm sure this thread is going to stir up some opinions! This has been on my mind for awhile, and I'm wondering if anyone else out there feels the same way. Perhaps I should've waited until I'm more known around here to post an opinion piece, oh well, dish out the heat if you want I won't take it personal!

    Fans Bear Responsibility for Pacers Current Problems


    With the draft deadline looming and the Pacers looking like they will stand pat, this seems like a good time to point out something that really needs to be said. And it’s not going to make anyone happy. No doubt, the team has a responsibility to our community. When the team knowingly hires players and personnel that the fans will be ashamed of, and continues to employ these miscreants for the sake of winning, then we very well should speak with our wallets, as fans have done for the past five years.

    But here’s what most of us have overlooked: the fans have a responsibility as well. When Manning and the rest of the current Colts have moved on, and the team once again endures a couple of tough years while they make an honest and dedicated effort to rebuild, we as fans have a responsibility to honor the wonderful years the team gave us, and the great things they did for our community, and stick with them as true, die-hard fans.

    We honor a team by staying true through the bad times, because we understand that the owners are trying with good faith to rebuild a team that we can one day be proud of. And I say that the fans of this city have done wrong by the Pacers in the last two years. It is their attitudes and demands that have put the team in a position that will make it very difficult for them to build a contending team until 2010 or later.

    The pacers management has been faithfully working to clean house for the past two years. The only piece left from the dark days is a player who has effectively been banished from the team, and is with the Pacers now only as a financial albatross The Pacers bought this lead weight when they inked a contract with a guy who was a behavioral risk. But we, the fans, secured that weight with a 14 million dollar padlock by essentially demanding that Tinsley disappear from the team before the fans would return. Now, a year after his final game to date, he has sat at home in contract-limbo, unable to be cut loose from his contract and becoming with time less and less of an asset that might be traded. Today he is virtually incapable of being traded, and the chunk of salary cap room he takes up means we are unable to construct a contending team until after 2011.

    My feeling is that if efforts to trade Jamaal were allowed to play out, and the man was not banished from the team in order to placate the fans, then he would still have decent trade value. But that wasn't an option and now the decision to send him into exile is costing the team millions in payroll.

    Conversations I have with the average person regarding the Pacers, these days, brings the same responses I heard two, three, four years ago. They’re thugs. I won’t let my kids watch them. Until the team gets rid of all the bad apples, I don’t care about them. And more recently: The team is a joke. They’re no good. Bird should be fired for putting together this lousy team. Guess what? The bad apples are gone. All gone. We have a team we should be proud of, players with great heart, and the will to win. Meanwhile attendance has only marginally improved from where it was two years ago, and by and large the negative attitudes persist. We’ve spoken with our attendance, effectively condemned a good and honest effort by the Pacers, and therefore forced the team to spend the next two years in salary-cap purgatory. So when I hear people on the street badmouth the Pacers now for being uncompetitive, I’m sorely tempted to remind them that their failures, hand in hand with the Hoosier values we expect them to possess, are a reflection on us fans as well.

    -- ToasterBusVIP
    On the surface a well thought out post, however you have missed a huge piece of the equation, the economy. Paying for tickets and going to a Pacer game somehow is not a high priority with average fans at the present time. Blaming fans for the Pacer's attendance problems is not cool in my books.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by DgR View Post
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    In any case the fans in Indy have spoken
    1. "Bird, get rid of the thugs"- check.
    2. "Bird, Make this team a winning team again". (only then will we be back filling those seats)
    Correct.

    Step 1 is complete. If the original premise is correct - that casual fans in Indy don't realize/ acknowledge that Step 1 is complete then there is a marketing/ PR/ advertising breakdown somewhere.

    Step 2 is clearly a work in progress at best, and is not yet being realized. Some of us think that the situation for Step #1 was sooooo bad that Step #2 will take several years, while others insist that a token playoff experience this year proves that #2 is complete. Management has not clearly articulated thier vision for Step #2 yet, and its obvious that the fans on PD (and probably in other forums, real or virtual) disagree on the best course of action as well.

    Until a vision for #2 is clearly articulated and can be demonstrated to be in progress, its a bit much to expect anything less than the hardcore fans to pay attention (and it is hard for us hardcore fans to even pay attention these days.)
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  10. #10

    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    Reputation doesn't bounce back that fast. They need the economy to bouce back, and they need a deep playoff run to get all the way back.

    And seriously, people are cutting back on discretionary spending. You might as well rail on people for not supporting restaurants.

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    Indy's #1 Hockey Fan Peter_sixtyftsixin's Avatar
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    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    We talk about this a lot in my classes, not the Pacers, but the concept that it takes very little to make a bad opinion, and a lot to make a good opinion of someone/something.

    Our attendance is up, the economy sucks. If this was any normal year, I think attendance would be up a lot higher than it currently is. Yet people view supporting the Pacers as taking a chance, due to the events of recent years, and when money is tight, they may not be as willing to attend games. I actually wonder a lot if our TV ratings have gone up.

    A lot of people I talk to still love this team, and either they don't have the money to support them, or they're unaware that it's safe to come out of hiding.

    I know the people on this board support this team, live and die with them, and have emotional bonds to the Pacers, so did a lot of our beloved city. I've always felt that a team represents its city. We haven't changed since the days of tribalism and gladiator games, we just use professional sports franchises instead of armies. People were embarrassed of the men who represented us and they rejected them.

    Of all Indiana teams, no team is a better representation of our city and our state than the Pacers. They bear our state's name, they play our sport, and they bear our state's colors. When you step inside that Fieldhouse, you are inside of the greatest cathedral ever built to a state religion. This team bleeds Indiana.

    We need to support them, and we need to let others know that they need to come back out of the woodwork. I know they have a marketing dept. and everything needed to promote themselves, but studies show that my generation (the millennials) doesn't respond to marketing, we respond to word of mouth. That's why I've been telling people all season long to come back to the Fieldhouse, and it's worked a decent amount. I'm not saying I'm awesome for doing this, I'm just saying all of us need to be doing this more.

    I'm sorry if this for some reason is off base, or doesn't fit, I felt this would work in this thread.

    /rant.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Peter_sixtyftsixin View Post
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    Of all Indiana teams, no team is a better representation of our city and our state than the Pacers. They bear our state's name, they play our sport, and they bear our state's colors. When you step inside that Fieldhouse, you are inside of the greatest cathedral ever built to a state religion. This team bleeds Indiana. /rant.
    I like this. Im gonna' put this in my Sig. You just made my day.
    "I keep wondering the same thing. Last week they had the 4th worst record in the league, had an 11.9 percent chance of winning the lottery and were in line to land a franchise type player like Derrick Favors or DeMarcus Cousins. This week? They have a 1.7 percent chance of winning the lottery, have the 8th worst record and are in line to draft Cole Aldrich or Greg Monroe. Way to go Jim O'Brien. Rest Danny Granger the rest of the season (if it isn't too late) and give Josh McRoberts lots of minutes. That ought to do it." - Chad Ford on winning meaningless games

    Way to go Jim, you may have just put our franchise back another 4+ years.

  13. #13

    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Country Boy View Post
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    On the surface a well thought out post, however you have missed a huge piece of the equation, the economy. Paying for tickets and going to a Pacer game somehow is not a high priority with average fans at the present time. Blaming fans for the Pacer's attendance problems is not cool in my books.
    Let's not forget Pacers fans have never been known to fill the arena. Tickets were widely accessible for the 2003-04 playoff run after the 61 win season. They were available during Reggie's last run.

    Like several people said, the blame goes both ways.

    I think it's funny how everyone points to the brawl even though fans were supportive. The real issues were post-brawl and then everyone went back in time and said the brawl was what broke them.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    Nobody owes the Pacers anything. All the steps discussed here seem fine, but ultimately the fans can do what they want. I like the Pacers, but that doesn't mean other people have to go watch them.

    Personally I believe the next time the Pacers are in the playoffs Indy will rally around them. There is a lot to like on this team. Making the playoffs isn't that difficult, but I think that will be the minimum level of winning necessary to win back a good fan base.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    The Colts becoming a legit Super Bowl contender during the same time period as the Pacers downfall certainly doesn't help either. And the face of the franchise retiring too. Although Granger has a chance to at least partially fill that void.

    You can argue some of the fan base is "fairweather" (not saying I agree or disagree here) but blaming the fans for anything related to the downfall of the franchise is a bit silly IMO. It has just been a confluence of bad luck, bad karma and bad management. As others have stated, the way to bring people back is to win.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    Okay well most everyone seems to be in agreement.

    The intent of my original post was to highlight the current problem of Tinsley's contract, and why the team is in the position of owing 7mil/year to a player who does not and will not play. Is it a response to the pressure from the fan base to do so? Then is it our responsibility that he's still under contract with us instead of playing for another team by now?

    Considering the fact that attendance hasn't shown a major improvement over last year's numbers, the question becomes what if anything was gained by sending Tins into exile? Was that infact the right thing to do? It hasn't helped the numbers. Would we have been better off keeping him on the active roster, showing he has value as a player (while being a PR risk, but hey some teams will still take that on, I mean Artest is still playing) until some kind of trade could be worked? I think if he had been playing for the last year, some team would have taken a flier on him this year.

    So was it a mistake to banish him from the team altogether? I mean, what's really been accomplished by this?

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    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by ToasterBusVIP View Post
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    So was it a mistake to banish him from the team altogether? I mean, what's really been accomplished by this?
    It was okay for training camp, but they really needed to either get a deal done or buy him out much quicker. The message itself is fine, but (as has been true for the Pacers for most of this decade), the execution was either clumsy or flawed.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  18. #18
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    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    I think that TPTB must have hedged their bets that Tins could get unloaded someday prior to this year's deadline. I really doubt, had they known he'd spent this much time in limbo, that they'd have wanted him to stay away from the team. They betted on being able to score PR points with the fans and still be able to unload him, probably the economy and the contractual fire-sale that went on this year caused that to become too difficult to pull off.

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    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    this is what i see from far from indy... i live on the east coast and love the pacers... i dont know what it is really like to live in indy,, i admit... but if i lived there i would have season tix..and would be going bananas the whole time. when i tune in to a pacers game the crowd no matter how many are there...is dead... is it that the demographic for the team is older people?? i dont know... but look at golden state ( with our old thugs ) drawing packed houses to watch the 20 win warriors. it must be the economy in indy as compared to the wealthy bay area, but there is no excuse why the pacers fans are not louder, lively,... if i am wrong let me know. like i said i have never been to a game there. sound is different on the broadcasts. but i can see a clear difference between a GSW crowd and Pacers crowd and thats sad..maybe with exception to Granger our team is easy to like but not fun to cheer for.

    i have even thought about transferring schools to indy to get season tickets.. to me this is the cheapest they can get. go pacers.....

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    Focused, how long have you been a fan of the Pacers for? Are you from Indy originally? I'm really happy to hear you're a fan and at the same time it makes me a little sad because I remember, in Reggie's days, hearing about the real strong international following the Pacers had, Reggie was something of a legend to a lot of people. I wish this could be that kind of team again.

    No it hasn't always been that way, my thought would be that a lot of the fans still don't have a real personal interest in this team, not yet. We went from having one of the all-time greats in #31, a player who was synonomous with the rebirth of this franchise, and for whom tears were shed at his final game, to a team that has alienated people. Now we have, what, one active player who was on this team four years ago? Something like 7 or 8 new faces this season alone? Even if people are no longer angry at the team and the players, maybe it's more a sense of apathy right now. I've noticed the same thing but maybe that's a positive in some ways...what does it mean for a fan base to go wild over a bunch of new players they barely know? Is that being a good fan? Maybe it just takes a lot more for these guys to win over our hearts?

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    Regarding Tinsley, what difference does it really make? The Pacers were going to have difficulty finding a trade partner to deal him either way. And he has no fault here? I mean if he could have, you know, kept a lower profile and steered clear of bad situations then he would not be in this position.

    I really have a hard time believing that paying Tinsley to stay home this season is some huge albatross around the Pacers collective neck. We were able to acquire 2 point guards to help fill his spot on the court and even if we did trade him, we have to take on equal salary anyways so it is only a matter of spending $7 million on a guy who isn't playing or spending $7 million on a barely useful end of the bench type player (which IMO is about all you are going to get for Tins at this point).

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    grew up in ny...fan since 92... i was 11 then.. i used to have to argue with all my friends ,who were knicks fans, my whole life.. now that ny rivalry seems dead as well. it appears to me that the fans need to snap the apathetic energy and embrace what we have. i think the attendance this season is more a reflection of the economic struggles. for example if we had gotten lucky in the lottery last draft and gotten rose (not that i want him)... the team would have a better record and attendance would have risen more as well. my point is that the pacers are one impact player away from being a decent team, and drawing good crowds. we just need a good draft.. we should just take the best athletes in available with our later picks.

  23. #23
    Banned Big Smooth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    Besides who is say that the coaches and players didn't want Tinsley kept away too? Maybe they didn't want the distractions around them anymore.

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    Talking Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by Big Smooth View Post
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    I really have a hard time believing that paying Tinsley to stay home this season is some huge albatross around the Pacers collective neck. We were able to acquire 2 point guards to help fill his spot on the court and even if we did trade him, we have to take on equal salary anyways so it is only a matter of spending $7 million on a guy who isn't playing or spending $7 million on a barely useful end of the bench type player (which IMO is about all you are going to get for Tins at this point).
    Well that's just it isn't it. A barely useful benchwarmer (ie a player another team is actually trying to rid themselves of) is all we could get at this point.

    At this point. Certainly. You don't think the Pacers were getting worse offers for Tins during the last few weeks, than what came their way in the fall of '07, when he was still playing, or Summer '08 when he'd only been inactive a few months?

    And if he WAS traded last year, what could that 7mil of contracts turned into? Perhaps it was a 2 yr deal that would have expired this year? Or two smaller contracts which were easier to move? The point of trading him would have been to get something more useful than a 7 million dollar hole. You then take what that's turned into--maybe 5 mil expiring, Quis' 4 mil expiring, and Rasho's 8 mil expiring--and aha, you've got something people would want, eh?

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    Default Re: Commentary: Fans Bear Responsibility

    Quote Originally Posted by focused444 View Post
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    grew up in ny...fan since 92... i was 11 then.. i used to have to argue with all my friends ,who were knicks fans, my whole life.. now that ny rivalry seems dead as well. it appears to me that the fans need to snap the apathetic energy and embrace what we have. i think the attendance this season is more a reflection of the economic struggles. for example if we had gotten lucky in the lottery last draft and gotten rose (not that i want him)... the team would have a better record and attendance would have risen more as well. my point is that the pacers are one impact player away from being a decent team, and drawing good crowds. we just need a good draft.. we should just take the best athletes in available with our later picks.
    Well, that's definitely part of it, the economics. But aside from that I'm just tired of the negativity and the "I don't really follow them anymore" apathy of the general population. Of course, I wasn't very old when the Pacers started their rise in the early 90s so I don't recall if it was the same way with most people in the 80s.

    I looked up some statistics on the P's attendance after their Finals run, when they rebuilt, and I was actually pleasantly surprised to learn that attendance didn't take much of a hit. I beleive down to about 15K a game from 18-plus the year before. So maybe the team won't have to show itself as a contender before we start seeing attendance get back to those levels again. I really hope so, I'd hate to see the team lose money the next couple of years when they're got themselves a great group of guys who are really giving it their all.

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